Anybody home?

[Otto N. Sure]

Howdy!

I haven't seen any new posts here in nearly a month, so I thought I'd jump in. These darn CZ 52's are addictive! I've got 3! One gray phosphate in 7.62 x 25; one gray phosphate in 9mm; and one CHROME in 7.62 x 25. I'm thinking I ought to have one of the black rearsenaled ones just so the collection is complete!

Because of the 52's, I've been lurking on the gun auction sites and wound up buying a nice CZ 100--what a contrast! Polymer, 10 shot, wonder nine vs. the tried and true all steel Czech-o-matic.

Now I'm on the look out for a CZ 50--a nice compliment to the CZ 52--and a CZ 82 in 9 x 18 Makarov--a dandy pistol for concealed carry in a zippy cartridge.

Tell us what you've got and what your experiences are! :uzi:

Otto N. Sure

[practical]

CZ85. Its an amazing gun. I could've lived without the ambi-safety. I never thought anything would make me sell the Ruger P95, but this one did. I don't regret buying it for one second.

[Troy]

CZ75, considering getting another so i can be a real cowboy. absolutely love the CZ's.

[NRAJOE]

I once had 7 CZ52's...
All 3 yrs in gray...all 3 yrs in black, plus an extra black...
Decided that was overboard and sold them all except a gray and black '53 dated (gray is un-issued)

I also had a CZ50...it went bang when it was supposed to but had crappy sights and was the least accurate out of all my handguns. Sold it, got a Bulgie MAK...glad I did.

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[Dennis]

I have only one cz52 now I have done all sorts of upgrades, tritum sights,slide stop lever, adjustable tension slidestop screw, aftermarket fireing pin, gold plated trigger, extended finger rest magazine floor plates, wolff recoil spring, hardened rollers, tuned extractor claw, hougue fancy checkered grips in goncalo alves, the list goes on and on.
I have spent Wayyy to much money, on this cz 52, its been fun souping it up.

I have made consistant 400 yard shots at a gong with it. (with other people there as whitnesses)
The Cz 52 pistol is able to do things that most all other pistols could never do.
the t-33 tokerev being the exception.
the 7.62 cartrige is a phenonomanal performer.
the range and flat shooting charcteristics enable the shooter to make hits when no other pistol could even come close.

Sometimes I think I should get some tents and tamborines and hit the road.
it could be the cz 52 revival tour!

[Thrawn]

I still need to get one.

[practical]

So you say these cz 52's are good? Never heard of one.

[Dennis]

They are pretty cool pistols. there are some issues that can be easily addressed.
generally they are accurate in some cases incredibly accurate.
the cartrige they fire is the 7.62x25mm
a 30 caliber 88 grain bullet with a muzzelvelocity of 1650+ fps.
its Fast!!
theres lots of cool stuff allready written.

[practical]

Are these the guns also known as Tokarevs?

I already want another CZ 75/85. I love this gun. Not to mention my trip to Prague last year was awesome and the gun gets major cool points just for being Czech.

I may even have to break down and buy a CZ 75 compact and kadet. These guns could replace a 1911 or two.

Originally Posted by practical

Are these the guns also known as Tokarevs?

no sir..this is a Tokarev http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg20-e.htm

this is a CZ-52 http://makarov.com/cz52/

[Otto N. Sure]

I'm now looking for a CZ 75 and/or CZ 97! Maybe a CZ 82 in 9 x 18...It's all Silvia Saint's fault!!

Otto N. Sure

[Dennis]

Practical,
the Cz52 pistol and the Tokerev pistol both fire the same ammunition.
the tok is also an exellent east block sidearm I like them both the cz IMHO is a bit more refined
the roller locking system is a direct copy from the old Nazi MG 42 Machine gun, scaled down to fit in a pistol.
Theres lots of wayyy cool things about the CZ52.

I enjoy Mine immensely.

[hanovergeneral]

This is my first post. Generally I'm a collector of Civil War cartridge carbines. My handle is based on the battle at Hanover and outside of Gettysburg where General Custer and his men with their Spencers stopped JEB Stuart's much larger Calvary from attacking the Union rear as Lee intended.

Until I bought a few CZ-52s my newest gun was a 1939 PO-8 Luger. There was just so much about the CZ-52 on the internet I couldn't miss it. I'm still finding new stuff every day.

Has anyone read this article about dangerous Bulgarian 7.62x25 ammunition?

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/4653/bad.htm[/url]

[Thrawn]

I'll betcha Custer wished he had spencers at little big horn.

[hanovergeneral]

Custers men were required to turn in their Spencers for single shot Springfields. The Army never liked the Spencers because they thought the soldiers would waste ammunition. At little Big Horn the Indians were armed with many Spencers and Henrys.

[Otto N. Sure]

Now if Custer had a CZ 52 and the Sioux had Tokarevs, who would have won? It's this kind of off topic info that's so much fun!!

Otto N. Sure

[hanovergeneral]

I would have to go with Indians. They were fighting over irregular terrain with many places to take cover and they had superior numbers. Finally they were highly motivated because they were defending ther families from certain death.

What about my question? Is it true that there is ammo being sold that is so powerful that it will explode a CZ-52?

Originally Posted by hanovergeneral

Is it true that there is ammo being sold that is so powerful that it will explode a CZ-52?

How hot is 7.62x25 ammo


7.62x25 ammunition

is an extremely ''hot'' calibre reputed to fall somewhere between .357 and .44 magnum in power and among the most frequently asked questions among firearms collectors are ''Is it the same as .30 Mauser?'' and ''How hot is it?'' followed by ''What's the hottest?''.

''Is it the same as .30 Mauser?''

The short answer is ''NO!". There are several differences between the two and I will leave it to the died-in-the-wool techies to cover exactly what they are. According to Frank C. Barnes' Cartridges of the World (6th edition), ''The (7.62 Russian Tokarev) is very similar to the 7.63 millimeter Mauser and some brands of Mauser ammunition can be fired in the Tokarev pistol.'' The same holds true for the Czech CZ52, however, it is not advisable to fire the 7.62x25 in firearms designed for the 7.63mm ''30Mauser'' cartridge. While Barnes indicates German field loads for the .30Mauser (generating 1410 fps) are actually hotter than the Russian x25 (1390 fps), 7.62x25 ammunition from several other Communist bloc countries and the People's Republic of China is frequently hotter than the German Field load for the 30Mauser. I, personally, have chronographed 1983 production Chinese that edged 1500 fps.

In his discussion of the .30Mauser cartridge, Barnes notes ''Until the .357 Magnum revolver cartridge came along, the 30Mauser was the high-velocity champion of the pistol world. It has a flat trajectory that makes long-range hits possible, but lacks stopping power on man or heavy animals because of the light full-jacketed bullet.''

These words hold equally true for the FMJ 7.62x25.

Here it may be useful to note that Barnes shows various standard .357Magnum loads to develop between 1235 fps and 1445 fps. He shows various standard .44 Magnum to develop between 1350 fps and 1560 fps.

How hot is x25?

I will report results here from two separate sources, Ken Shackleford's reloading page ( http://w3.one.net/~melchar/tokarev/ ) and a report from Bill Krause who frequents the c-r-ffl ''board''. Essentially, the available data indicates 7.62x25 average muzzle along the lines of the .44Magnum, while the 30Mauser cartridge equates to the .357Magnum when compare raw muzzle velocity.

Shackleford's Reloaders' Pages

Regarding the CZ52 pistols and hot ammunition, Shackleford has noted, ''...the old Czech pistol seems to like about anything I throw at it... the more powerful, the better. :-) Could get a guy in trouble. Be careful.'' Shackleford's pages (link above) contain a good deal of information besides the simple muzzle velocities being discussed here. I would highly recommend a visit to his page for anyone conducting in-depth research into the properties of the 7.62x25 and 30Mauser cartridges. As of December 14, 1998, Shackleford indicates completed testing on ten individual batches of ammunition-- seven being 7.62x25 and three of 30Mauser.

By raw muzzle velocity, Shackleford shows one batch of Sellier and Beillot x25 to be the hottest peppers in the garden at 1545 fps. He indicates a second batch generating 1525 fps. Given the headstamp info, I am unable to determine the specific difference between the two batches-- but I'm not a big 'headstamp' kinda guy.

Second in sheer speed is a batch of Bulgarian surplus x25 (possibly 1950s) at 1543 fps. Third on the list would be 1990s production Norinco Chinese x25 flying at 1499 fps.

Fourth and fifth speediest comes back to Eastern Europe with Polish surplus at 1483 fps and the supposedly ultra-hot Czechoslovakian with magnetic slugs at 1482 fps. I might add here that several shooters (myself included) have had a notable misfire rate with the Polish surplus.

Here comes China again at sixth place on Shackleford's Countdown. His tested batch of 1980s production Chinese chronoed at 1478 fps. Interestingly enough, it was 1980s Chinese that I chronoed edging 1500. My AVERAGE, however, probably agrees with Shackleford's. I am also not a mathematics fan, so my series of 25 shots through the chrono were more of a ''gee whiz'' scenario than a formal test-- ie: I didn't write all the shots down and divvy out the average.

Seventh place in Shackleford's x25/30Mauser testing went to SBP's 30Mauser at 1463 fps. Eighth to a batch of Hansen 30Mauser at 1378. The Russian x25Tokarev as Barnes had discussed above chronoed at an average of 1354 fps for ninth place. And a batch of Fiocchi came wandering last over the finish line at a ''mere'' 1318 fps.

Factory Load Ammunition For The CZ 52
by Bill Krause

Sample 1-Chineese Norinco-Yellow box 60 rounds per box. Case copper washed steel. Berdan primed Headstamp 12 o'clock=947 6o'clock 93 Charge: 8.8 grains of darker colored extruded powder. Bullet 85.5 grain copper wash jacket that reacts to a magnet lead core FMJ.

Sample 2-Chineese-Brown box , some with Chineese characters, 70 rounds per box . Case copper washed steel. Berdan primed Headstamp 12 O Clock two parallel lines like ll 6 O Clock 92 Charge: 8.8 grains of darker colored extruded powder, appears to be the same as sample 1. Bullet 86.5 grain copper washed jacket that reacts to a magnet lead core FMJ Appears slightly different than sample one.

Sample 3-Czech-Labeled by my gun shop as "too hot" for a Broomhandle. Brown boxes labeled 7,62 mm naboje pistoletowe 70 szi 70 rounds per box. Brass case Berdan primed
Headstamp 54 at 12 O Clock design of a crown at 6 O Clock Charge 8.3 grains of fine grain light colored extruded powder. Bullet 86 grain jacket reacts to a magnet lead core FMJ.

Sample 4-Eastern European-Looks like a lot like a scaled down version of my S&B 7.62X39 Enamel painted steel case Berdan primed Headstamp 10 O Clock 53, 2 O Clock bxn, 6 O Clock l Charge 10.1 grains of dark flake powder. Bullet 84.4 grain copper(?) jacket that reacts to a magnet lead core FMJ On stripper clips.

Sample 5-Czech M48-A purported sample of the legendary Czech ammo it is suppose to be armor piercing and is no longer available. Enamel painted steel case very similar in appearance to sample 4 . Berdan primed Headstamp 6 O Clock 52, 10 O Clock oxm, 2 O Clock l Charge 9.8 grains of dark flake powder. Bullet 84.6 grain Nickel or Chrome plated jacket that reacts to a magnet lead core FMJ on stripper clips.

Sample 6-Sellier & Bellot (Modern)-Brass case Boxer primed Headstamp 12 O Clock S&B, 6 O Clock 7.62x25, 2 O Clock 10 Charge 7.9 grains of silvery ball powder Bullet 84.8 grain copper(?) jacket that reacts to a magnet and lead cored FMJ

Sample 7-Sellier& Bellot 7,63 Mauser(older)-Brass case Berdan primed Headstamp12 O Clock SBP 6 O Clock 7.63 Charge 8.7 grains of light colored flake powder Bullet 84.5 grain copper (?) jacket that reacts to a magnet and is lead cored FMJ Bullet is cantalouvered

Sample 8-Fiocchi 7,63 Mauser-Brass case Boxer primed Headstamp 12 O Clock
GFI 6 O Clock 7.63 Mauser Charge 5.5 grains of silvery flake powder Bullet 86.5 grain
Copper jacket FMJ Bullet is canalouvered No magnetic reaction to either case or bullet


Sample 9-Winchester 7.63 Mauser- At least 60 years old Brass case Boxer primed
Headstamp 12 O Clock WRAGo 6 O Clock 7.63 Mauser Charge 6.1 grains of silvery flake powder. Bullet is 86 grain lead (?) hollow point cantalouvered No magnetic reaction to either case or bullet.

Sample 10-Bulgarian Mil Surp- Brass cased Berdan primed Headstamp 12 O Clock
* (a star) 6 O Clock 52, 9 O Clock 3, 3 O Clock 10 Charge 8.3 grains of very fine grained silvery gray extruded powder. 85.7 grain copper(?) jacket that reacts to a magnet and is lead cored FMJ bullet.

from http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Go...53/x25ammo.htm

[hanovergeneral]

Thanks Logansdad for the articles. I think I may have seen one of them before. I guess the article at

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/4653/bad.htm

may just be an isolated incident.

hanovergeneral

[rebel727]

Originally Posted by hanovergeneral

I would have to go with Indians. They were fighting over irregular terrain with many places to take cover and they had superior numbers. Finally they were highly motivated because they were defending ther families from certain death.

What about my question? Is it true that there is ammo being sold that is so powerful that it will explode a CZ-52?

Custer was so vastly outnumbered it wouldn't have mattered what he had. Even if he had the 6 Gatlings he left behind it wouldn't have done him any good.