[wunhunglo]

Quote:       Originally Posted by billy

ok, for starters they spell it calibre. caliber!

Separated by a "common"" language!!!!!

[billy]

Quote:       Originally Posted by wunhunglo

Separated by a "common"" language!!!!!

im just teasing.
i just wanted to have a lil fun....

[wunhunglo]

Quote:       Originally Posted by billy

im just teasing. i just wanted to have a lil fun....

I know that!

[SwedeSteve]

LOL! At you both!

[billy]

Quote:       Originally Posted by wunhunglo

I know that!

BTW
it's a trunk not a boot!

[wunhunglo]

bonnet not hood!
Tyre not tire!
wing not fender!
engine not injun!
Petrol not gas!

[Capt'n Mil Coll]

Put the pram in the boot put up the bonnet and head down the M1 eh wot?

[billy]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Capt'n Mil Coll

Put the pram in the boot put up the bonnet and head down the M1 eh wot?

yabba dabba doo............. hoser!

[GLS_okie]

one ot the things I've noticed is teh brits desinate cartridges "backwards from the way we Americans do. for a round that was developed from an other, like a necked down 250 savage to a 22 cal. we go new diameter to old cartidge so we get 22-250. It sems the brits go the other way. Hence the .450/.500.

GLS_Okie

[wunhunglo]

There's the right way and ...............................................the American way!

[raven5]

Don't want to come off as rude or anything, but after lurking for a while I had to join and comment on this.

The .308 Winchester round and the 7.62x51 NATO round are not the same round. They have nearly identical dimensions, and are basically close enough to chamber etc. without any issues. The .308 is definitely loaded to higher pressure than the NATO round. Might not matter in most guns, but is something to consider and be aware of. Might cause some issues in gas operated guns as far as reliability goes, but might be dangerous in older rifles that were re-chambered to the NATO round later on. Those old Lee Enfield rifles that were rechambered to 7.62 NATO should for safety reasons only have 7.62 NATO fired in them, not the higher pressure .308 Winchester rounds. The steel used in them isn't as strong as the newer Ishapore rifles.

The Ishapore rifles were made of higher quality/strength steel. These can handle the .308 rounds safely.

As far as .308 mil surplus ammo, it doesn't exist. The .308 is a civilian/commerical round. 7.62 NATO or 7.62x51mm (they are the same cartridge, just sometimes called one or the other) is a military cartridge and thus has that metric military designation. There is surplus for these.

And in case you are curious, it's the same deal with the .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm cartridge. Most people think they are identical, but they are not.

You can call this splitting hairs and you may never have a problem with whatever you choose to do but knowing the difference might prevent you some trouble and Heaven forbid, some safety issue.

It's late, but pressure differences will arise with the .22 caliber cartridges and the .308 caliber cartridges. Different designs call for different chamber dimensions. If I remember correctly (and again, don't have the details in front of me so correct me if I'm wrong) many commercial .223 loadings when chambered in true to spec 5.56 NATO chambers can possibly have the bullet touch the rifling to varying degrees when chambered. Might not seem like much of a problem, but this will raise pressures to varying degrees depending on the misc. variables of course of the individual load.

Most of the current AR15 variants out there (and there are many now) will have 5.56 as the designation for the rifle, but the chamber was actually cut with a .223 reamer, or the chamber dimensions of the 5.56 barrel made with a 5.56 reamer will have dimensions that are actually those of the .223 cartridge. (skinning a cat different ways but same end result) These differences, while minute sometimes is where the MIL-SPEC, etc. comes into play.

Just my two cents and not wanting to offend anyone. Just some helpful knowledge I've came across and was curious enough to look into.

[samuel]

Quote:       Originally Posted by raven5

Don't want to come off as rude or anything, but after lurking for a while I had to join and comment on this. The .308 Winchester round and the 7.62x51 NATO round are not the same round. They have nearly identical dimensions, and are basically close enough to chamber etc. without any issues. The .308 is definitely loaded to higher pressure than the NATO round. Might not matter in most guns, but is something to consider and be aware of. Might cause some issues in gas operated guns as far as reliability goes, but might be dangerous in older rifles that were re-chambered to the NATO round later on. Those old Lee Enfield rifles that were rechambered to 7.62 NATO should for safety reasons only have 7.62 NATO fired in them, not the higher pressure .308 Winchester rounds. The steel used in them isn't as strong as the newer Ishapore rifles. The Ishapore rifles were made of higher quality/strength steel. These can handle the .308 rounds safely. As far as .308 mil surplus ammo, it doesn't exist. The .308 is a civilian/commerical round. 7.62 NATO or 7.62x51mm (they are the same cartridge, just sometimes called one or the other) is a military cartridge and thus has that metric military designation. There is surplus for these. And in case you are curious, it's the same deal with the .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm cartridge. Most people think they are identical, but they are not. You can call this splitting hairs and you may never have a problem with whatever you choose to do but knowing the difference might prevent you some trouble and Heaven forbid, some safety issue. It's late, but pressure differences will arise with the .22 caliber cartridges and the .308 caliber cartridges. Different designs call for different chamber dimensions. If I remember correctly (and again, don't have the details in front of me so correct me if I'm wrong) many commercial .223 loadings when chambered in true to spec 5.56 NATO chambers can possibly have the bullet touch the rifling to varying degrees when chambered. Might not seem like much of a problem, but this will raise pressures to varying degrees depending on the misc. variables of course of the individual load. Most of the current AR15 variants out there (and there are many now) will have 5.56 as the designation for the rifle, but the chamber was actually cut with a .223 reamer, or the chamber dimensions of the 5.56 barrel made with a 5.56 reamer will have dimensions that are actually those of the .223 cartridge. (skinning a cat different ways but same end result) These differences, while minute sometimes is where the MIL-SPEC, etc. comes into play. Just my two cents and not wanting to offend anyone. Just some helpful knowledge I've came across and was curious enough to look into.

Don't want to come off as rude,but you you are a little mixed up.The .308win. and 7.62 NATO round are identical and the same thing.The difference comes when the rifles are chambered and the ammo is mfg,d in C.I.P. specs and chambered in firearms mfg,d under SAAMI specs.When this happens it won't chamber one way and has a headspace problem the other way.It is not a pressure problem,it is called a Delta L problem.Manny cartridges have this problem including any that rifles are chambered and ammo mfg,d in both C.I.P.(European spec)and SAAMI(American)specifications.This is not the same with 5.56x45mm which had a longer chamber throat than the .223rem. and higher working pressures causing the mouth of the 5.56x45 to open in the chamber throat of the civilian .223rem,s chamber,causing hard bullet release and high pressures.This can be cured by reaming the civilian chamber to military specs,but you lose a little in accuracy.It's no real problem anyway,all you have to do is make sure you don't shoot 5.56x45mm ammo in .223rem. chambers. sam.

[raven5]

Quote:       Originally Posted by samuel

Don't want to come off as rude,but you you are a little mixed up.The .308win. and 7.62 NATO round are identical and the same thing.The difference comes when the rifles are chambered and the ammo is mfg,d in C.I.P. specs and chambered in firearms mfg,d under SAAMI specs.When this happens it won't chamber one way and has a headspace problem the other way.It is not a pressure problem,it is called a Delta L problem.Manny cartridges have this problem including any that rifles are chambered and ammo mfg,d in both C.I.P.(European spec)and SAAMI(American)specifications.This is not the same with 5.56x45mm which had a longer chamber throat than the .223rem. and higher working pressures causing the mouth of the 5.56x45 to open in the chamber throat of the civilian .223rem,s chamber,causing hard bullet release and high pressures.This can be cured by reaming the civilian chamber to military specs,but you lose a little in accuracy.It's no real problem anyway,all you have to do is make sure you don't shoot 5.56x45mm ammo in .223rem. chambers. sam.

Actually, I'm spot on. Instead of me reiterating everything, just go to this link: The Gun Zone -- Error Page: 404 - File Not Found

It has (unless in a specific case) nothing to do with European manufacturing standards and U.S. manufacturing standards, and mixing up things. Whereas the chamber can be longer and still within spec for 7.62 NATO, it will be overly long for .308 brass. Since the cartridges have basically the same external dimensions this would allow a .308 cartridge to fully chamber (with room to spare) but actually the chamber having too much headspace. The reason is this: NATO brass is thicker than commercial .308 brass. Also, the max pressure for .308 Winchester is 62,000 psi while 7.62 NATO is 50,000 psi. If you take a thinner brass cartridge operating at higher pressure and place it in a chamber that is out of spec for those conditions you could easily have a case head rupture. The lower pressure NATO round with the thicker brass can tolerate, if you will, the slightly longer chamber spec and therefore that is why the spec is different between the two cartridges.

It does come down to a pressure problem. If the .308 was loaded to 50000psi or less, then you may never have a problem in a maximum NATO chamber. If however you have a .308 cartridge at 62000psi and put it in a NATO chamber that is at the edge of it's usefulness, then you could have a case head rupture and depending on the rifle, all that goes with it.

If you want to know for sure about your chamber, take a casting of it. Cerrosafe works easily and wonderfully and you'll know how safe your chamber is for firing the .308 round.

As a general rule, just fire whatever cartridges the gun is chambered for in it according to the brass headstamp. This should keep you in the clear.

As far as the 5.56 vs. .223 goes, by saying it was the same situation I only meant that while most people think they are identical, you also have small differences between the two that can cause issues, not necessarily the identical issues to the .308 caliber rounds.

The chambering issue I was referring is the trend for heavier bullets in the .223 by many varminters and target shooters, thus possibly resulting in a cartridge OAL that might cause a problem in the standardized chambers of true 5.56 NATO chambers. Not likely, but a concern and something to be aware of. Since the NATO round operates at around 60,000 cup max and the commercial round 50,000 cup max, you may never have an issue. Going the other direction, a NATO round in a civilian chamber could be dangerous.

Either way with either group of cartridges, just be careful and aware of all possibilities that could arise.

Safe shooting.

[snoopy]

Oh, by the by, that's M1917 Enfield.... NOT P17... LOL .... It's an American thing I guess

[chris l]

Quote:      

the British DO use "Wierd" calibers...

British Forces, generally, use NATO calibres.

There are a (very) few units that fall outside of this proscription.

Historically we were very conservative, using the .303 round in rifle, light support weapons (the Bren), heavy machine guns, such as the Vickers, until we adopted the NATO 7.62, with the adoption of the FN, 'SLR' in the 1950's. The prevalence of the .303 made for simple logistical supply.

We adopted 9mm for the FN pistol in the '30's, and used it during WW11 for the STEN, following the capture of a large amount of 9mm ammunition at Dunkirk. US weapons were also employed, to some degree, in their original calibres, .45ACP, 30-06 and .30 carbine, for example.

We did experiment in the '60's, with the British 4.85x49mm cartridge, (weird), but rejected it, and now use 9mm, 5.56 NATO and 7.62 NATO predominantly, with the newer L115A3 Long Range Rifle having been recently offered in .338 as well as 7.62. We also have .50BMG Barret M82s. et al.

Experiences in Afghanistan and elsewhere have highlighted the deficiencies and shortcomings of the little 5.56 in engagements at distance, and the need for a more widely (re)issued larger calibre rifle/Support Weapon combination, the LSW in 5.56 being as deficient at distance as the SA80.

The only really weird round that I can think of in the British Army inventory is the .55 Boys, and that was only used for 6 years!

[twtalbot]

The biggest difference between 7.62mm Nato and .308 Win. isn't necessarily the pressure of factory rounds, but the pressure of handloads in military vs commercial brass. The commercial brass is thinner, with a higher capacity, and as you get closer to maximum charges, the pressure in the military case rises significantly faster. A charge that was safely developed in a commercial case may be dangerous in a military one. If you want low pressure, soft point factory loads, Remington's Managed Recoil ammo should fill the bill.

[big boomer]

Anything with rook in the name is weird or Rigby or Talor(or is it Taylor?) they have lots of weird ones (you did not say they had to be military)

[chris l]

Quote:       Originally Posted by big boomer

Anything with rook in the name is weird or Rigby or Talor(or is it Taylor?) they have lots of weird ones (you did not say they had to be military)

I stand corrected; we've always had both British and Continental influences, so that we ended in civilian life with with 7mm pinfire revolvers, 9mm Flobert 'garden' guns and 'saloon pistols' firng bulleted breech caps and the wonderful Webley-Fosbery.... until our caring sharing government took them all away.

To stop gun crime: curiously it didn't occur to them that criminals, by definition, ignore the law... it hasn't worked.