Can you help identify my No. 4 MK I?

[ingous]

Well, here are a few pics of my new acquisition. I have seen pictures of much more spectacular Enfields on this forum, but please keep in mind that I have three kids, which means that Daddy shops the “Bargain Shelf”. I paid $195 for the rifle and I hope I did ok considering the price and condition.

Can you “veteran” Enfield owners help me identify where my rifle was build and when? It was advertised as a No. 4 MK I. I have searched sites like “enfield-stuff.com”, “Lee Enfield Rifle Markings”, and “Enfield Rifles Page”, but I have not come very far. The markings on the receiver band don’t look familiar compared to what I have found on those websites. I would really like to know where and when it was build. I have a hunch that it was build in 1943, but please take a look yourselves.

Thanks in advance for any info you can provide!!!

[billy]

maybe it is a MALTBY?
those are decent pics but i still cant really tell what the markings are.

but the S means savage

[ingous]

P.S. For some reason the thumbnails don't seem to enlarge when you click on them.
It still seems to work so when you do a right mouse click on the thumb and select "open link". That opens a new window with the enlarged picture.

Originally Posted by billy

maybe it is a MALTBY?
those are decent pics but i still cant really tell what the markings are.

but the S means savage

Billy, thanks for taking a look. Which picture should be better? I can try to take a different shot from another angle.

[billy]

the serial number will tell us where,when and who made it.

for instance this example was made in fazakerly in 1955

[ingous]

Isn't it AV7200? Or does that mean somethin else?

[billy]

how many grooves does the barrel have?

this is a found quote:

The major producers of the No.1 Mk. IV would be "Royal Ordnance Factory" Fazakerley United Kingdom, "Royal Ordnance Factory" Maltby United Kingdom, "Birmingham Small Arms Co. Ltd" United Kingdom, "Longbranch Arsenal" Canada, "Savage Arms" U.S., "Pakistani Ordnance Factory" Pakistan .

The markings for each will be on the reciever.
ROF (F) = Royal Ordnance Factory (Fazakerley - UK)
ROF (M) = Royal Ordnance Factory (Maltby - UK)
BSA Co = Birmingham Small Arms Co. Ltd (UK)
Longbranch Longbranch Arsenal Canada
US PROPERTY or [S] = Savage Arms (U.S.)
POF = Pakistani Ordnance Factory (Pakistan)

And possibly a very few made by Lithgow in Australia. I haven't seen one, so I can't tell you what markigns to look for.

Also on the reciever is generally a year of manufacture, on my savage model is a large "S", the serial number, a name (probably whoever was in charge of the arsenal at that time) and a year of manufacture : unquote

[ingous]

Originally Posted by billy

how many grooves does the barrel have?

Hmm, I might have to admit here that I am ignorant in this regard. How would I tell? Are we taling about the twist?

[billy]

this one has 2 grooves


i am proud of that pic.
it turned out great!

[ingous]

Originally Posted by billy

Also on the reciever is generally a year of manufacture, on my savage model is a large "S", the serial number, a name (probably whoever was in charge of the arsenal at that time) and a year of manufacture : unquote

The only things I see on the side on the receiver is:

First row "No 4 MK I F(?) FTR"
Second row "AV7200"
Third row "No 4 MK I"

I don't see any serial number as in your picture.

Originally Posted by billy

this one has 2 grooves


i am proud of that pic.
it turned out great!

That is an awsome pic!

Now, if I am not too drunk then I see 6 groves and 2 white mice.

[billy]

The FTR designates a Factory Thorough Repair, which means a rifle went through a complete rebuild or 'rearsenal'. Depending on where the FTR was performed, there will be additional info stamped alongside.

[ingous]

See that's my probelm. Unless I don't know the right spot to check, my first picture of the "receiver band" is my best sorce of information and I cannot make heads or tales of it.

The 9th picture I posted of the receiver shows a crown and the number 43. Could this be the year it was build?

[ingous]

Originally Posted by billy

some enfields were made into the early 70's

im a lookin buddy!

Billy, I appreciate the help. I can tell you're trying hard. It is so frustrating because I could tell right away that my rifle does not have the “usual” markings. I am almost wondering if that rifle is just a hotch-potch of parts put together.

[billy]

Basic Enfield Identification and the Facts about Serial Numbers

No.4 and No.5 rifle serial numbers can readily identify manufacturers. British No.4 rifles have five numbers, usually after one or two letter prefixes. The same letter prefix(es) were used by Maltby, Fazakerley & BSA Shirley, A to Z then AA, AB to AZ, then BA to BZ, CA to CZ &c. Maltby rifle serial numbers commence with a number '1', Fazakerley with a '2' and Shirley with a '3', e.g. 1xxxx for Maltby, 2xxxx for Fazakerley and for Shirley, 3xxxx, after the letter prefix. Late Shirley numbers then supposedly ran A4000 to A7999 and with PS prefixes at the very end of production. Post-war Fazakerley No.4 rifles had PF letter prefixes. The only exception to the 5-number sequence for No.4 rifles was the initial BSA Shirley production which ran from 0001 to 9999 then went with A to Z prefixes (A0001 to A9999 to the Z prefix) and some early dual letter prefixes (e.g. AT 0303), but then went over to A30001, &c. So early M47C No.4 rifle numbers could be confused with the Jungle carbine in having four rather than five numbers.
Long Branch (Canada) serial numbers incorporate an 'L' in the serial number while US Savage numbers include an 'C' in a similar relative position amongst the numbers. Both of these No.4 rifle series commenced with 0L1 and 0C1 respectively.
No.5 Jungle Carbines only have 4 numbers, the Shirley carbines have BB to C? prefixes, last production was post World War 2. The Fazakerley jungle carbines ran from FE1 to FE1000 initial production, then with no letter prefix, followed by A1 to A9999 through Z9999.

Serial numbers of certain Lee-Enfields can serve as indicators of the model and help with initial authentication. The 'BS' prefix was used for the .22 British No.7 rifles, 'T1' for the .22 No.5 trials small-bore target rifles in 1945 and 'DA' for the .22 No.8 N.Z. contract rifles by BSA Shirley. 'SKN' was applied to factory sectionized models, an 'XP' prefix was used for Lithgow Shortened & Lightened SMLE and No. 6 jungle carbines, 'X' was used for a small number of Lithgow No.1 rifles with stainless steel barrels and 'FE' was used for early production Fazakerley No. 5 jungle carbines. Trials No. 1 Mk VI and No. 4 Mk 1 rifles made in the early 1930s have an 'A' prefix to their original serial numbers although many were later upgraded to No. 4 specs and the 'A' became a suffix to indicate the fitting of some non-interchangeable components. On No. 4 rifles, an 'A' suffix was stamped by a repair depot or armourer after the serial number when some parts were found to be non-interchangeable.
And of course, with the Canadian No.4 rifles, the letter 'L' precedes the last four numbers as does a 'C' for the Chicopee Falls production Stevens Savage Lend-Lease No.4 rifles and 'J5550' (the drawing number) prefixes the Canadian Lightened No. 4 serial number. After the initial 99,999 rifles, the Lithgow No. 1 (S.M.L.E.) proceeded through 'A', 'B', 'C', 'D', 'E' and 'F' prefixes before the last rifle F40580 was manufactured in 1953. WW2 production ceased with F39580 and the 1,000 rifle run during the Korean War ran from F39581 to F40580. More details on serial numbers will also be found in the new book, 'The Broad Arrow'.

i am gonna beat ya to death with information about enfields!

[ingous]

Originally Posted by billy

Basic Enfield Identification and the Facts about Serial Numbers

Yeah, I did look at that webpage shortly after I bought the rifle.

There are none of the usual markings on my rile in the spots that the site shows. The top of the receiver is marked "L4 and something I can't decifer" in very small letters. There are some marks below the front end on the stock, but I cannot read them anymore. The bolt is marked (again in very smal letters) "A3" and in the inside of the top receiver groove I see "PG 1 <3> or <8>" Sorry that I can't give you any better answers. The pictures show what I see.

[gerry303ca]

I would guess No.4 Mk 1 F would be Fazerkley. (FTR) - Factory Through Repair, usually has a date with it. AV7200 is the serial number. There should be more markings. There is a good chance it has parts from several factories, perhaps as a result of the FTR. I have a No.I MkIII made at Enfield but FTR 1942 at Ishapore so it now has an Indian barrel & stock. Pull off the rear handguard and see if there is anything on the barrel.

[ingous]

Thanks for the input. Actually this photo shows the area underneath the handguard. I can see the number 7, then there is a 43, and what looks like a crown over an X.

http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/att...i-dscn1862.jpg

[Enfield trader]

the rifle is marked M47C which is BSA Shirley mfg then it was FTR'd. Date looks to be 1943 under the M47C marking. The 43 on the barrel would be 1943.

[ingous]

Dang.....you have good eyes! That wasn't easy to make out on my bad picture.

Thanks for the info!!!!!!!

[Tulamosin]

It's a FrankEnfield; brought to life with the parts of other Enfields from around the world.

I like it; it has character.

[ingous]

FrankEnfield?....lol....good one!

Well, it was my first one and it was cheap. I still like it and next time and I know what to look for.