Sellier & Bellot

Palladin8 · 02-27-2009, 11:35 PM

I bought a few boxes of the 180gr FMJ and was wondering if anyone has shot it. I also read on here but can't find the thread again about it not being very good brass for reloading. What is the reason behind that? To soft? hard? If it is annealed would that extend the life or am I better off not trying to reload it?

Thanks

ArkansasHunter · 02-27-2009, 11:39 PM

Though I've never shot any Sellier & Bellot I have read several times it is some of the best ammo made.
As far as reloading brass I/m sure some here will help you with your question.

Alan De Enfield · 02-28-2009, 03:07 AM

I have never reloaded S&B but was warned about it 2 or 3 years ago as only being suitable for 3 reloads - I've passed the warning on to a guy at the 'club' who was using factory S&B and was planning to reload

Saw him a couple of months later and he said "you were right - I got exactly 3 reloads beofre they split"

So - its "sort" of first hand experience supported by several 'old time' loaders originally.

wunhunglo · 02-28-2009, 03:49 AM

I also found the S & B cases prone to splitting at the neck. I would not consider it good quality ammo for reloading, just cheap plinking ammo.

Alan de Enfield. Have you come across any .303 down south other than the Privi or the new Kynoch?

toolman · 02-28-2009, 12:03 PM

I've got some S&B 7.62x54R brass that's on it's 5th loading, seems to be just fine. I did anneal the necks, but I do that on most of my brass anyhow.

Alan De Enfield · 02-28-2009, 12:45 PM

Alan de Enfield. Have you come across any .303 down south other than the Privi or the new Kynoch?[/quote]

No - the Kynoch has dried up and my local dealer is not stocking the Privi (or any) 303 anymore.
Must admit tho' I'm not over worried (at this stage) as I'm mainly shooting my 7.62 Enforcer 'clone' and ammo is readily available.
I've a bit of 303 in stock (Privi & Kynoch) and keeping the brass seperate from my No1, No4 & No5 and doing the odd hour or two reloading to keep stocks topped up.
Bullet heads and powder are readily available from my dealer (20 miles away)

wildvee2002 · 02-28-2009, 06:27 PM

have used it new, very good results, have reloaded brass twice, still ok. i think brass is hard. get a propane torch, heat the neck and shoulder area till to hot to hold drop in water pail, that my annealing process. also get a lee neck size only die to reload for your rifle. i,m am pleased with the results in my 3 303,s

gandog56 · 03-01-2009, 12:29 PM

I'm using Prvi Partizan cases, but they are only on their first reloads.

Alan De Enfield · 03-01-2009, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gandog56

I'm using Prvi Partizan cases, but they are only on their first reloads.

I'm on my 7th & 8th reloads with Privi (neck sizing only)

Palladin8 · 03-02-2009, 08:40 PM

Well my rifle is having some issues so I won't be reloading the few cases I was able to shoot. I am pretty sure the headspace is out and I will have to correct it prior to attempting to shoot it again. out of the three rounds that I managed to fire the first one left a ring a little above the head, the second one split the case almost all the way around in the same location and the third managed to seperate the case completely. All of the primers were punctured by the firing pin. I guess I have to get a set of guages and check the headspacing now.
Would buying a complete new bolt assy cure this or is it a whishful thought?

gandog56 · 03-03-2009, 12:41 AM

You should be able to get by with just purchasing the next size bolt head. There should be a numeral 0, 1, 2, or 3 on your bolt head. Supposedly if headspace is out you should just replace that number with the next highest number bolt head. But check the headspace again if you do it.

wunhunglo · 03-03-2009, 02:12 AM

I would measure the bolt head first before you order another number; some of the numbers do not always correspond to what they should. Read the pther threrads on headspace issues with the Enfield.

Tennessee Gun Parts has full sets of bolt heads. www.tngunparts.com

Palladin8 · 03-03-2009, 07:14 PM

Gandog where is the number located on the bolt head? The only markings I have been able to locate on the head is an M and what appears to be a crown with very small letters of BM underneath it. Also on the back side of the of the bolt head there is another small crown with an E below it. I find no other markings on the bolt head.

Ok after scrubbing over the bolt head a little more the E looks more like a 3. So my next question would be if it is out of headspace what options do I have?

Alan De Enfield · 03-04-2009, 02:57 AM

Assuming we are talking about an Enfield NO4 - it has never been mentioned during the whole thread. No1s are a different ball game.

No4 bolt heads are marked up :
0.1.2.3

The sizes SHOULD be slight incremental increases with 0 as the smallest.

Some time ago I investigated rumours that the size (number) was almost irrelevant to the actual bolt head size.
I (and a few friends) measured over 100 bolt heads and found that in fact you could get a number 1 bolt head smaller than a No2 bolt head, or a No2 bolt head larger than a No3 bolt head.

The actual results were :

Size / Number 0 went from 0.620" - 0.631"
Size / Number 1 went from 0.622" - 0.635"
Size / Number 2 went from 0.630" - 0.640"
Size / Number 0 went from 0.632" - 0.640"

If you need a new bolt head specify the dimension needed - not the 'next size up' - you could end up worse than when you started.

Palladin8 · 03-04-2009, 11:06 AM

Sorry I should've clarified which model it is. It is a Model 1 MK III.

I measured the bolt in several locations last night and it differed from .631 all the way to .636. Just depended on what portion of the bolt I checked. It was very inconsistant to say the least.
I read online last night that it is better to have a gunsmith work on the No. 1 MKIIIs as the bolt heads are not interchangeable. It seems that I could just shim the bolt head to get it within tolerances. I don't have the tools nor the resources to take on this task so I won't bother with it. I am going to order the guages to get an idea of where I stand then go from there. I don't know how much it would cost to have the headspace fixed but I really don't want to invest alot of money into a surplus rifle. The guages are going to cost $90+ just to check the thing out.

Would it be better to just take it to a gunsmith and have him check it out? Cheaper in the long run?

Alan De Enfield · 03-04-2009, 03:09 PM

The bolt heads on No1s are not numbered / sized.

The way to fix a headspace issue on a No1 is find out by how much your headspace is 'out' and get a bolt head that much bigger than your existing one - simple !!!

All No1 bolt heads were made 'oversize' and were stoned down to suit each rifle. an armourer would have hundreds of No1 bolt heads in his box new & used and would just work his way thru' until he found one that needed a minimum of stoning.

Dont pay $90 for gauges - just get a 0.074" No-go gauge and make sure it is a UK military gauge at 0.074" and not a US SAMMI no-go which is 0.070"

There are normally loads of No1 bolt heads on ebay.com at around $10 a piece - either get a gunsmith to tell you what size you need and get one off ebay, or buy a selection.

From memory I havn't seen a No1 bolt head above 0.645 so if the longest bolt head you can get doesnt work maybe that your bolt boldy is 'shot' - constant recoil / pounding does 'shorten' the bolt body by hammering it back into the locking lugs, in turn the locking lugs 'shrink' - they are all interlinked.
It could work out expensive via a gunsmith and at the end of the day if the locking lugs have had it the gun is scrap.

My suggestion : Minimum investment
1) Get a 0.074" gauge
2) Buy the longest bolt head you can find

If that solves the problem - great - then get a 0.064" gauge to ensure you are above minimum.
If it doesnt work you need to consider if the rifle has a future with you.

Alan De Enfield · 03-04-2009, 03:15 PM

Palladin8

Just bring it over to me and we'll check it out with my gauges and spare bolt heads.
Problem is it will cost you a few $ to get here (England) !!!

You mentioned shimming the bolt head DONT its dangerous and wont work !

Palladin8 · 03-04-2009, 05:23 PM

Alan, thanks for the information. I will get the no-go guage only. I found one on Yankee engineers that you can specifiy the size you want. They sell the whole kit as well but like I said it's approx. $90.00.
I would love to go back to England. I was there in 97 for a few days with an ex gf. We traveled through there onto Ireland where she was from but we spent some time with her friends in London as well in Liverpool. Had a great time there. But like you said it's a little more money than what I want to spend on this surplus rifle.

On the shimming comment I was just thinking that one might be able to do it but wasn't sure if it would work or not.

One more question. Will the No.4 bolts fit into the No.1s? If so would the mix up explain why the headspacing is off. Reason I ask is because you said the No.1 bolts are not numbered and this one appears to have a 3 stamped on the backside of the bolt head.

gandog56 · 03-05-2009, 12:20 PM

All I have is a No. 4, so I can't tell you. Maybe somebody has both and can see?

Alan De Enfield · 03-05-2009, 01:55 PM

No1 bolt heads are 'marked' in various ways with inspectors stamps, metal grade, ownershipmarks (like the South African U), and what seem to be random numbers.

They are NOT marked with size numbers, as in 0,1,2,3, on the edge.

Interchangability :
This is my own experience and I just tried it again to confirm. There maybe other people who have tried it and it works BUT it will only be because of either a worn bolt or receiver.

a) A No4 bolt head will not fit into a No1 bolt body (different threads)
b) A No1 bolt with a No1 bolt head fitted will not fit under the rear sight mounting on a No4.
c) A No1 bolt body (without bolt head) will 90% fit into a No4 receiver but will not fully 'close down' into battery. (I guess the locking lugs are slightly longer but dont know for sure)
d) A no 4 bolt head and the locking lug on a No4 bolt body will not go thru' the channel at the rear of the receiver - its too wide.
e) A No1 bolt head will screw into a No4 bolt body (but not properly as its a smaller diameter thread)
f) The only way I can imagine a No4 bolt / bolt head in a No1 is if its been ground down (widthways) or the receiver is totally bu****ed

Has your bolt body got a hollowed out section on the long locking lug ? If it has its a No4 bolt, If it hasn't Its a No1 bolt.

If you do have a No4 bolt head mismatched to a No1 bolt. I'd suggest its not safe and scrap it.

Can you post pics of your bolt and bolt head and receiver area ?
No1 bolt heads are a different shape to No4 bolt heads.

02-27-2009, 11:35 PM	#1
Palladin8 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 2,451	Sellier & Bellot I bought a few boxes of the 180gr FMJ and was wondering if anyone has shot it. I also read on here but can't find the thread again about it not being very good brass for reloading. What is the reason behind that? To soft? hard? If it is annealed would that extend the life or am I better off not trying to reload it? Thanks

02-27-2009, 11:39 PM	#2
ArkansasHunter Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: South Arkansas. Posts: 17,217	Though I've never shot any Sellier & Bellot I have read several times it is some of the best ammo made. As far as reloading brass I/m sure some here will help you with your question. __________________ IN GOD WE TRUST NRA MEMBER

02-28-2009, 12:03 PM	#5
toolman Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: abilene,tx Posts: 7,135 Blog Entries: 25	I've got some S&B 7.62x54R brass that's on it's 5th loading, seems to be just fine. I did anneal the necks, but I do that on most of my brass anyhow. __________________ cosmoline is an aphrodisiac!

03-01-2009, 12:29 PM	#8
gandog56 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Montgomery, IL. Posts: 11,797	I'm using Prvi Partizan cases, but they are only on their first reloads. __________________ People think I'm paranoid because I own guns. If I own guns, what do I have to be paranoid about?

03-03-2009, 12:41 AM	#11
gandog56 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Montgomery, IL. Posts: 11,797	You should be able to get by with just purchasing the next size bolt head. There should be a numeral 0, 1, 2, or 3 on your bolt head. Supposedly if headspace is out you should just replace that number with the next highest number bolt head. But check the headspace again if you do it. __________________ People think I'm paranoid because I own guns. If I own guns, what do I have to be paranoid about?

02-28-2009, 03:07 AM	#3
Alan De Enfield Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Eastern England Posts: 278	I have never reloaded S&B but was warned about it 2 or 3 years ago as only being suitable for 3 reloads - I've passed the warning on to a guy at the 'club' who was using factory S&B and was planning to reload Saw him a couple of months later and he said "you were right - I got exactly 3 reloads beofre they split" So - its "sort" of first hand experience supported by several 'old time' loaders originally.

02-28-2009, 03:49 AM	#4
wunhunglo Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: currently "Sunny West Africa" Posts: 4,102	I also found the S & B cases prone to splitting at the neck. I would not consider it good quality ammo for reloading, just cheap plinking ammo. Alan de Enfield. Have you come across any .303 down south other than the Privi or the new Kynoch?

02-28-2009, 12:45 PM	#6
Alan De Enfield Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Eastern England Posts: 278	Alan de Enfield. Have you come across any .303 down south other than the Privi or the new Kynoch?[/quote] No - the Kynoch has dried up and my local dealer is not stocking the Privi (or any) 303 anymore. Must admit tho' I'm not over worried (at this stage) as I'm mainly shooting my 7.62 Enforcer 'clone' and ammo is readily available. I've a bit of 303 in stock (Privi & Kynoch) and keeping the brass seperate from my No1, No4 & No5 and doing the odd hour or two reloading to keep stocks topped up. Bullet heads and powder are readily available from my dealer (20 miles away)

02-28-2009, 06:27 PM	#7
wildvee2002 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: lower arkansas swamp rat Posts: 4	have used it new, very good results, have reloaded brass twice, still ok. i think brass is hard. get a propane torch, heat the neck and shoulder area till to hot to hold drop in water pail, that my annealing process. also get a lee neck size only die to reload for your rifle. i,m am pleased with the results in my 3 303,s

03-02-2009, 08:40 PM	#10
Palladin8 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 2,451	Well my rifle is having some issues so I won't be reloading the few cases I was able to shoot. I am pretty sure the headspace is out and I will have to correct it prior to attempting to shoot it again. out of the three rounds that I managed to fire the first one left a ring a little above the head, the second one split the case almost all the way around in the same location and the third managed to seperate the case completely. All of the primers were punctured by the firing pin. I guess I have to get a set of guages and check the headspacing now. Would buying a complete new bolt assy cure this or is it a whishful thought?

03-03-2009, 02:12 AM	#12
wunhunglo Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: currently "Sunny West Africa" Posts: 4,102	I would measure the bolt head first before you order another number; some of the numbers do not always correspond to what they should. Read the pther threrads on headspace issues with the Enfield. Tennessee Gun Parts has full sets of bolt heads. www.tngunparts.com

03-03-2009, 07:14 PM	#13
Palladin8 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 2,451	Gandog where is the number located on the bolt head? The only markings I have been able to locate on the head is an M and what appears to be a crown with very small letters of BM underneath it. Also on the back side of the of the bolt head there is another small crown with an E below it. I find no other markings on the bolt head. Ok after scrubbing over the bolt head a little more the E looks more like a 3. So my next question would be if it is out of headspace what options do I have? Last edited by Palladin8; 03-03-2009 at 08:04 PM.

03-04-2009, 02:57 AM	#14
Alan De Enfield Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Eastern England Posts: 278	Assuming we are talking about an Enfield NO4 - it has never been mentioned during the whole thread. No1s are a different ball game. No4 bolt heads are marked up : 0.1.2.3 The sizes SHOULD be slight incremental increases with 0 as the smallest. Some time ago I investigated rumours that the size (number) was almost irrelevant to the actual bolt head size. I (and a few friends) measured over 100 bolt heads and found that in fact you could get a number 1 bolt head smaller than a No2 bolt head, or a No2 bolt head larger than a No3 bolt head. The actual results were : Size / Number 0 went from 0.620" - 0.631" Size / Number 1 went from 0.622" - 0.635" Size / Number 2 went from 0.630" - 0.640" Size / Number 0 went from 0.632" - 0.640" If you need a new bolt head specify the dimension needed - not the 'next size up' - you could end up worse than when you started.

03-04-2009, 11:06 AM	#15
Palladin8 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 2,451	Sorry I should've clarified which model it is. It is a Model 1 MK III. I measured the bolt in several locations last night and it differed from .631 all the way to .636. Just depended on what portion of the bolt I checked. It was very inconsistant to say the least. I read online last night that it is better to have a gunsmith work on the No. 1 MKIIIs as the bolt heads are not interchangeable. It seems that I could just shim the bolt head to get it within tolerances. I don't have the tools nor the resources to take on this task so I won't bother with it. I am going to order the guages to get an idea of where I stand then go from there. I don't know how much it would cost to have the headspace fixed but I really don't want to invest alot of money into a surplus rifle. The guages are going to cost $90+ just to check the thing out. Would it be better to just take it to a gunsmith and have him check it out? Cheaper in the long run?

03-04-2009, 03:09 PM	#16
Alan De Enfield Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Eastern England Posts: 278	Enfield No1 The bolt heads on No1s are not numbered / sized. The way to fix a headspace issue on a No1 is find out by how much your headspace is 'out' and get a bolt head that much bigger than your existing one - simple !!! All No1 bolt heads were made 'oversize' and were stoned down to suit each rifle. an armourer would have hundreds of No1 bolt heads in his box new & used and would just work his way thru' until he found one that needed a minimum of stoning. Dont pay $90 for gauges - just get a 0.074" No-go gauge and make sure it is a UK military gauge at 0.074" and not a US SAMMI no-go which is 0.070" There are normally loads of No1 bolt heads on ebay.com at around $10 a piece - either get a gunsmith to tell you what size you need and get one off ebay, or buy a selection. From memory I havn't seen a No1 bolt head above 0.645 so if the longest bolt head you can get doesnt work maybe that your bolt boldy is 'shot' - constant recoil / pounding does 'shorten' the bolt body by hammering it back into the locking lugs, in turn the locking lugs 'shrink' - they are all interlinked. It could work out expensive via a gunsmith and at the end of the day if the locking lugs have had it the gun is scrap. My suggestion : Minimum investment 1) Get a 0.074" gauge 2) Buy the longest bolt head you can find If that solves the problem - great - then get a 0.064" gauge to ensure you are above minimum. If it doesnt work you need to consider if the rifle has a future with you. Attached Thumbnails

03-04-2009, 03:15 PM	#17
Alan De Enfield Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Eastern England Posts: 278	Palladin8 Just bring it over to me and we'll check it out with my gauges and spare bolt heads. Problem is it will cost you a few $ to get here (England) !!! You mentioned shimming the bolt head DONT its dangerous and wont work !

03-04-2009, 05:23 PM	#18
Palladin8 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 2,451	Alan, thanks for the information. I will get the no-go guage only. I found one on Yankee engineers that you can specifiy the size you want. They sell the whole kit as well but like I said it's approx. $90.00. I would love to go back to England. I was there in 97 for a few days with an ex gf. We traveled through there onto Ireland where she was from but we spent some time with her friends in London as well in Liverpool. Had a great time there. But like you said it's a little more money than what I want to spend on this surplus rifle. On the shimming comment I was just thinking that one might be able to do it but wasn't sure if it would work or not. One more question. Will the No.4 bolts fit into the No.1s? If so would the mix up explain why the headspacing is off. Reason I ask is because you said the No.1 bolts are not numbered and this one appears to have a 3 stamped on the backside of the bolt head.

03-05-2009, 12:20 PM	#19
gandog56 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Montgomery, IL. Posts: 11,797	All I have is a No. 4, so I can't tell you. Maybe somebody has both and can see? __________________ People think I'm paranoid because I own guns. If I own guns, what do I have to be paranoid about?

03-05-2009, 01:55 PM	#20
Alan De Enfield Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Eastern England Posts: 278	Palladin No1 bolt heads are 'marked' in various ways with inspectors stamps, metal grade, ownershipmarks (like the South African U), and what seem to be random numbers. They are NOT marked with size numbers, as in 0,1,2,3, on the edge. Interchangability : This is my own experience and I just tried it again to confirm. There maybe other people who have tried it and it works BUT it will only be because of either a worn bolt or receiver. a) A No4 bolt head will not fit into a No1 bolt body (different threads) b) A No1 bolt with a No1 bolt head fitted will not fit under the rear sight mounting on a No4. c) A No1 bolt body (without bolt head) will 90% fit into a No4 receiver but will not fully 'close down' into battery. (I guess the locking lugs are slightly longer but dont know for sure) d) A no 4 bolt head and the locking lug on a No4 bolt body will not go thru' the channel at the rear of the receiver - its too wide. e) A No1 bolt head will screw into a No4 bolt body (but not properly as its a smaller diameter thread) f) The only way I can imagine a No4 bolt / bolt head in a No1 is if its been ground down (widthways) or the receiver is totally bu****ed Has your bolt body got a hollowed out section on the long locking lug ? If it has its a No4 bolt, If it hasn't Its a No1 bolt. If you do have a No4 bolt head mismatched to a No1 bolt. I'd suggest its not safe and scrap it. Can you post pics of your bolt and bolt head and receiver area ? No1 bolt heads are a different shape to No4 bolt heads.