Refinishing an Ishapore

[MmMongol]

My father recently sent me a '42 Ishapore No1 MkIII as an Xmas/BDay gift.
It's seen better days and looks like it may have been used as a hammer or shovel considering the amount dings and layers of caked on dirt.
Despite it's outward appearance the rifle functions fine and I would like to clean it up to restore some of it's former pride.
The question I have is what is the original finish on these Indian rifles as mine seems to have some heavy black paint applied.
Others I've seen use parkerizing and even OD spray paint with good looking results.
If it's paint, what colors were used?
There is an interesting painted on marking on the right side of the butt so I'm hesitant to strip and refinish that even though the wood is chipped.
For this I've already picked up a pair of replacement butts from ebay for under $20 and am looking for the forestock.
Is the wood finish on these linseed, tung, varnish...?
I'll try to get some pics up soon and thanks to all for the loads of other invaluable info I've already soaked up about my other milsurps.

[thaddy1978]

Originally Posted by MmMongol

My father recently sent me a '42 Ishapore No1 MkIII as an Xmas/BDay gift.
It's seen better days and looks like it may have been used as a hammer or shovel considering the amount dings and layers of caked on dirt.
Despite it's outward appearance the rifle functions fine and I would like to clean it up to restore some of it's former pride.
The question I have is what is the original finish on these Indian rifles as mine seems to have some heavy black paint applied.
Others I've seen use parkerizing and even OD spray paint with good looking results.
If it's paint, what colors were used?
There is an interesting painted on marking on the right side of the butt so I'm hesitant to strip and refinish that even though the wood is chipped.
For this I've already picked up a pair of replacement butts from ebay for under $20 and am looking for the forestock.
Is the wood finish on these linseed, tung, varnish...?
I'll try to get some pics up soon and thanks to all for the loads of other invaluable info I've already soaked up about my other milsurps.

Mine looked pretty bad when I got it. There were only a few left at the time, and I think mine got passed up due to it's outer appearance. The barrel and rifling looked great!! Yes, it is an Ishapore. I am a shooter and not a wall hanger...while I wanted to maintain the value, I wanted to refinish it even more. I wanted it to look as great as it shot. I stripped it fully and refinished it. I used Minwax stain (I think it was Cherry flavor) and Formby's Tung Oil. If you do a search on this sight for my threads, I should have more or less a step-by-step on when I refinished my mosin nagant and my 303 Ishy

[Iron_Colonel]

I thought the original finish on them was boiled linseed oil. But there are many different ways you can refinish a rifle. I think a tung oil would look good too. Lots of options. Do you have pics of your rifle?

[MmMongol]

I'll try to get some pics up in the next few days. This rifle seems to shoot fine, albiet off center due to the fact that I can't move the sights due to crud. From the looks of the No1 MIII's at the Phoenix gun show this weekend it's in pretty good shape mechanically. The finish is some sort of oil and I've got no problem keeping it that way once I complete my search for decent furniture. The butt I will keep in the closet because of the markings but the forestock has nothing of mention except for perhaps the infamous Ishy screw. If I pick up a new forestock what can I do to move/replace the screw? Or should I even bother?

[MmMongol]

Finally got some pics taken. This first should show the general condition with chipped paint and fairly beat up furniture. Like I said earlier I'm interested in purchasing all new wood so I can keep the original with markings for historical sake. Anyone got ideas what the markings mean? What about paint? I'm thinking Aluma-Hyde II or Duracoat at this point, something that won't need baking.

[MmMongol]

Another set showing the amount of grime I've got to deal with. I did pick up a pair of buttstocks on eBay and am watching a whole stock set which is listed at $170. Now I'm kicking myself for not picking up the new wood set from last weekend's gun show for $60. I will likely make whatever stock parts I don't use available at my cost if anyone is interested, so far $5 per butt + S&H. Sorry that some of these are blurry but she wouldn't sit still hearing that I was going to the range tomorrow.

[Iron_Colonel]

How is the bore on this rifle? What series of Enfield rifles had the two groove rifling?

[TheJoker]

Originally Posted by Iron_Colonel

How is the bore on this rifle? What series of Enfield rifles had the two groove rifling?

The two groove barrels are commonly found on the Savage No 4 Mk I* rifles made during the latter part of the war.

After a little more research, I found that the two groove rifling was a product of British research and was apparently approved for all new and replacement barrels in mid-1941.

[MmMongol]

I couldn't get a decent shot down the bore tonight with the flashlight I have on hand...something about not being able to focus the camera and keeping the flashlight pointed down the breech at the same time...so I'll have to dig up the 90deg attachment tomorrow. Honestly I'm a real novice when it comes to the finer details of firearms so I'm not sure how to gauge it's condition but the rifling looks fine. It is definitely more than a two groove and given the trick the gentleman with the Mausers gave me at the range a few weeks ago I'd say the bore is good, at least relatively undamaged. When I give it a thourough cleaning I'll be able to know better.

[MmMongol]

Ok, so the ebay stock I was watching has reached over $150 and still hasn't met the reserve so I've scoured the 'net looking for a replacement.
When I found a set on egunparts for $75 in 'good' condition I placed the order and have my fingers crossed as to what I will receive.
I'd love to keep the original but fear that any attempt to refinish it will damage it further and I won't be able to retain the markings.
Now I need to decide on the new finish for the metal.
It's either going to be Aluma-hyde II or Duracoat in matte black due to ease of application and not needing to be baked on.
So, what do I clean/degrease this with?
And what sort of surface prep is best?

[thaddy1978]

This site may help too. http://www.poppertsgunparts.com/cgi-...a_gunparts.cgi

[MmMongol]

Like I said earlier I kept my fingers crossed and hoped for the best when I placed the order for this stock set.
Now buying a stock set for a 60+ year old surplus rifle in "good" condition, sight unseen, is a bit of a crap shoot.
But, I really think the person who wrote that description needs their eyes checked...you be the judge...here are the buttstocks.

The one that is rough sanded and unfinished is the new one, the others I the two I picked up from ebay so I need to decide which set matches now. Each has individual characteristics which make them appealing.

[Alan De Enfield]

Have you got the correct Butts ?

Fitting a new Butt :
(Courtesy of Captain Peter Laidler - Lee Enfield Armourer for more years than he admits to)

The BUTT. On the face of it, it’s a simple enough job. Just unscrew the old and bash the new one on and screw it up. But that’s JUST what you might do ….., screw it up! If you have a look inside the but socket of the rifle, you’ll see that it is actually tapered and it’s tapered for a good reason. That being to keep the butt TIGHT. All new butts are slightly oversize at the butt socket and what we do is to fit the front end into the butt socket and tap the rear end of the butt, where the heel and toe butt plate screw holes are, with a rawhide mallet so that you start to see witness marks from the rifle butt socket. Then with a rasp or coarse file, rasp away GENTLY until the butt starts to fit into the taper of the butt socket. Keep doing this and you’ll visibly see it going further into the butt socket. Ideally (but certainly on a grenade launching EY rifle), with a last tap of the rawhide mallet the butt should bottom out into the underside of the socket. It should be horizontal to the rifle.
Now for the important bit. The wooden shoulder of the butt, the part that sits proud of the butt socket, MUST be clear of the butt socket and there should be a gap of about 2mm between that edge and the actual butt socket. Have you got that? There MUST be a gap of about 2mm between the steel butt socket and the butt. If there isn’t a gap, then you can be sure that a sliver of wood WILL break away. The butt MUST be tight in the socket and in an ideal world, according to the REME Armourers bible, the wood of the butt MUST (but in civilian circles, should) be proud of the socket by approx 1/16” and the edges should be crisp and sharp. Now, remove the butt and slap on a xxxxing good coating of XG279 or automotive high melting point grease. Some of you will by now have noticed that there are TWO shapes inside top surface, inside the No4 rifle butt socket. The OLD ex SMLE shape with a rounded step on the right and a tapered step on the left and the post 1942 (?, but that’s what we called them …..) shape of two rounded steps.
Officially, and according to our EMER’s, you CAN fit a double rounded stepped butt to a single round/taper step body after adjusting the wood accordingly. But you CANNOT fit a single rounded/taper step butt to a double rounded butt socket. This is because, try as you might, you’ll never truly get it tight ….., or if you do, it won’t last!
That’s the OFFICIAL party line. But if you think that any old, wise and weary old Armourer Sergeant would allow you to wait until a stock of double rounded butts arrived, from stores in England to Korea or Aden or Malaya or wherever you were, you’re WRONG. It was quite common practice to simply dovetail, glue, patch, peg and make off the butts to get to the type you need. Simple isn’t it.
How tight do I tighten the stock bolt? I cannot find a specific torque figure but if I said to you xxxxing tight would be about right, then we won’t fall out but don’t forget to put the double coil spring washer in first followed by the stock bolt covered in the same grease. I nearly forgot. Before you put the stock bolt into the butt, with your long ‘BIT, screwdriver, stock bolt', check that there is a metal washer inside the butt. You’ll easily tell by the metal to metal sound. If there’s NOT, then PUT ONE IN. And DO NOT, DO NOT tighten the stock bolt up with the fore-end fitted because if the stock bolt does protrude into the body, then you WILL bugger up the rear of the fore-end and rest assured, a cock-up like that will ensure that you will be buying the tea’s and buns at tomorrows tea break.
Next, the butt plate. All the EMER’s state is that the butt plate should be ‘…evenly seated with the edges below the level of the wood surface of the butt’. In other words, it must be of a smaller silhouette than the butt. I say, with an approx .100” or 3mm gap around its edge and the edge of the wood. As for the fit of the butt plate, then, once again, I say evenly, by taking wood from underneath the butt plate to get an all round even bearing at its edge. If there was a 010 - .015” (ten to fifteen thousandth) that would be acceptable but no more. Oh yes, please, PLEASE don’t polish the bloody thing up. We did it as apprentices to show off our skills but I never ONCE saw one polished to a gleam by an Armourer. A slight linish with emery to get rid of a scrape or roughness, but polish ………………….
What about stripped buttplate a sling swivel screws? Easy. For the butt plate screws, drill out 3/8”, hard, oak, tapered plug glued and driven in. Sling swivel screws, same but ¼”. Wait 24 hours, make off and re-drill out with 3/16” and 1/8” pilot holes respectively. And I don’t want to see old matchsticks, broken-up bits of softwood or rolled up bits of card in there either. It’s shoddy workmanship and reflects badly on the good name of Armourers, the oldest trade. Here’s a little font of Enfield knowledge that you didn’t know before now.
As a result of ours being the oldest recognized trade in the Army (Oh yes it is…….., waggoners were never an officially recognized trade at all ….), even today, Armourers have honour of always being acknowledged as ‘Armourer’ before their rank. Hence Armourer Lance Corporal or Armourer Sergeant or Armourer Warrant Officer. Some have suggested that on being Commissioned, it was really a demotion by having to forfeit the sacred title of Armourer.

Once you've got that sorted I will post instructions for fitting the forend. - Good luck

[MmMongol]

I knew there was something different about the blondest of the butts I had but didn't notice until looking at these pictues.
I'm going to say it's for another version of the Enfield but don't know which. I'll have to look around so I can describe it properly when I try to get rid of it.
Now in this set you can see that the forend for this stock set included the metal pieces.
You should also be able to see that this stock isn't in "good" shape, it's practically "new".

[MmMongol]

Now I need to decide what set to use.
The blonde one is out due to shape and color, the new one is rough and really dry looking, and the darker finished one has dings so I'm going to need to dig up an ironing technique but at least I've got options.
So the next step is to take the rifle apart and see what's hidden under the surface.

[MmMongol]

Alan, I had seen you post these instructions elsewhere and my first step in fitting these was going to be looking for them.
Thanks for saving me the time.
I'm slowly collecting my list of specs and procedures so when this goes back together it will be a fairly good representation of the original.

[Alan De Enfield]

Originally Posted by MmMongol

Alan, I had seen you post these instructions elsewhere and my first step in fitting these was going to be looking for them.
Thanks for saving me the time.
I'm slowly collecting my list of specs and procedures so when this goes back together it will be a fairly good representation of the original.

Sorry if you already know this but just trying to help :
Dont forget the inner band screw half way up the forend (underneath)
When dismantling your rifle make sure you take the forend off first, then the butt.
You may find there is a leather washer on top of the butt screw which will need to be fished out with a wire coat-hanger (or similar). The screw will be xxxxing tight (to quote an armourer) and you'll need a good screwdriver or socket set with a 12" extension and the widest bit possible. The slot in the bolt is 0.75" across and 0.1" width. Ideally your screwdriver should be that size. Use a smaller one and you'll break the tip off (I know - I've done it twice)

Before fitting the new forend (it may help you decide which one to use) check the draws and make sure they are nice and square and undamaged. If the draws area doesnt fit properly you'll never get accuracy and trigger 'pull-offs' can be affected.
Ensure the trigger guard seats properly (flush) in the forend without any force. You shouldnt have to put in the rear TG screw and then use the front TG screw to pull it down.
Check the length of the front trigger guard screw and spacer to ensure you are holding the forend tightly but not crushing it. Each forend is slightly different sizes (& wood varies / shrinks a bit). Spacers come in different sizes to suit different wood thickness.

[Alan De Enfield]

The Australian forends were often made of Coachwood which suffered terribly and split. These can be re-built. They are often found with metal shims as can be seen in this picture (Thanks Ed Horton for this Pic) :

[MmMongol]

Alan,

I know none of this so it's all good info that I'll be using, or at least keeping in mind, as this progresses.
When I get it apart I plan to put the pieces in place just to see how close/far they are as it seems nothing goes without a proper fitting on English machines.
Of course I'm not going to start cuting, filing, and sanding until I get the metal stripped and refinished.
Not long ago I thought this was sloppy manufacturing but now I'm leaning towards eccentric and seeing the true craftsmanship.
All the help is truly appreciated.

[MmMongol]

Now that I'm looking at that reinforcement diagram. Do you think it would be a good idea to try and add this now to ensure I don't have a split? Granted what I have is walnut but the original had the Ishapore screw and most...uh all....of my other mil-surps have some sort of reenfocement screw as well. Using this method may keep the outside appearance cleaner. I was also considering bedding it for strength but if there's a more authentic method I'm willing to try it.