Keep or Return (No. 4 Mk1*)

AimHigh · 10-19-2009, 11:16 AM

I was a at a local gun shop this past weekend and bought a No. 4 Mk I* Long Branch, 1944. Stock is almost perfect, about 98-99% blue (butt plate is "heavily" used), crown is "ok", sling included. No bayonet, no oiler (I assume one goes in the stock). Bore was shiney in the store. However, after I got it home I went to work alternating K12, Hoppes #9, foaming bore cleaner throught it, and pulled out a lot of copper - with a lot to go. This are no import marks on it - anywhere. While the "out side" was clean, I don't think anybody ever removed the action/barrel from the stock as it was caked with cosmoline. Cleaned up very well.

This is my first Enfield. The store owner really didn't know what he had and said he paid cash for it from "some kid from the mid west who needed money". Charged me $250. I guess he probably made about $50 off me. He also volunteered to test fire it for me and said if I didn't like it he would refund my money.

The big question is ---- Did it get ripped off, or (if it does shoot) is this a fair deal? Should I ask for my $ back or keep it?

Sorry, no pictures yet. -AimHigh

wunhunglo · 10-19-2009, 11:28 AM

I would keep it, but then again I live in a different country (some mights say 'world') where even an American #4 at $250 is dirt cheap. You should really have the headspace checked but I'm sure most folks will say just shoot it first & see how it shoots. Unless the barrel is really shot out, I reckon you'll be taken with how well it performs.

Archetype_wyo · 10-19-2009, 11:34 AM

+1 if you don't like it, let one of us know. I know I've been wantin an Enfield for a while and if I can get a good line on one I will be setting some money aside.

big boomer · 10-19-2009, 11:56 AM

clean out the barrel totally and decide i would keep it enfields are going up and getting harder to find

SightNSqueeze · 10-19-2009, 12:02 PM

Your Mk 4, No. 1 sounds like it is in pretty good shape. Most of the Enfields that I've seen in the past few years are. $250 sounds about right too. Don't expect MOA accuracy with the present sights. Enfields are a lot more accurate than their rear sights allow. You can get a tighter aftermarket aperture ring to go in your rear sight if you feel compelled. Clean up the bore really well and let us know how it shoots. You will probably be surprised. By the way, somebody here on G&G found some Mk 9 “blade” bayonets w/o the scabbards for just $5 each. Correct Enfield slings are cheap too.

nathangdad · 10-19-2009, 05:55 PM

but not a great deal on design that has been out of production for many, many years.

I would get the bore slugged. Although it is a touchy subject with owners of this gun there was such a rush to produce them in WW2 sometimes wide variations in bore diameter were accepted by the military and put into service.

If you do not know how to do this process just about any gunsmith can push the material through the barrel then take a micrometer to the end product.

If you have a really good bore diameter and strong riflings then good for you.

Capt'n Mil Coll · 10-19-2009, 06:54 PM

Your question is did you get a good deal. I would say you got a fair deal. If there is still a lot of copper in it use one part ammonia to two parts water and it will clean up faster. Then just clean again with some hoppes or what ever is your choice of cleaner.

Enfields are a very nice actioned rifle. While it depends on the rifle if it is accurate or not most are not great.

As far as your purchase I would definately keep it. I paid more for one that the wood is not the best. But the metal was really good.

192ndkid · 10-19-2009, 09:25 PM

I say keep it..! It is your choice but you bought for a reason..! now start searching for ammo, I just found 150 rounds a Greek hxp for less than 100 dollars..

When I get back from the sand box I am going to try and score a mk1 no 4 1955 FAZ but they are running real high now.

Flaming Day · 10-19-2009, 10:34 PM

I say keep it.I love my Enfield,it's my favorite.$250 does sound a bit on the high side but its not totally outrageous.

Big Dog · 10-20-2009, 08:21 AM

Shoot it before deciding to part with it.
I bought a No.1 Mk.III awhile back, a 'junker' I thought, and planned to make a project of it. Made the mistake of cleaning and shooting it first. That rifle shot a tight set of groups!
So I fully restored it to it's former glory.

Let the rifle show what it can do, and 'talk' to you.

AimHigh · 10-20-2009, 11:50 AM

Now have pictures (if i can figure out how to load them)

The serial numbers on the bolt handle and receiver match. There is no ser.no. on the barrel but it does have the commercial proof markings: crown over BNP and 303 2 222 (and below it) 18.5 tons per (square box) ". The barrel is also stamped with a large "44" and a "II" below it. The Canadian "C and arrow or tree" is marked on various parts. bothe the receiver and bolt head have an "X" with a "D" to the left and a "P" under it. The one on the receiver may have a C or F also.

Again, no import marks were seen. I have 7 other milsurps and all have import marks. -AimHigh

twtalbot · 10-20-2009, 11:57 AM

Keep it. When the importers had them in stock, they sold them for $180-$200, so $250 from a dealer or private owner ain't bad. If you've got strong rifling, don't be alarmed by copper fouling. This is a 60+ year old service rifle, not a 6mm PPC benchrest job. I've never been able to get a truly clean patch out of my Savage #4 MKI and it'll shoot 2 1/4 MOA with the original sights. I have a K98k Mauser with a dark (but strongly rifled) bore with visible pits that shoots under 3 MOA. Don't judge a barrel till you've shot it.

SightNSqueeze · 10-20-2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twtalbot

Keep it. When the importers had them in stock, they sold them for $180-$200, so $250 from a dealer or private owner ain't bad. If you've got strong rifling, don't be alarmed by copper fouling. This is a 60+ year old service rifle, not a 6mm PPC benchrest job. I've never been able to get a truly clean patch out of my Savage #4 MKI and it'll shoot 2 1/4 MOA with the original sights. I have a K98k Mauser with a dark (but strongly rifled) bore with visible pits that shoots under 3 MOA. Don't judge a barrel till you've shot it.

Agreed. That is as nice looking as most out there. Since your No.4, Mk 1* is a Long Branch made Enfield; you may have 5-grove rifling. Definitely give it a good cleaning using Capt'n Mil Coll's recommendations and shoot it for accuracy. I'll bet you'll be pleasantly surprised. If you really want to push Enfield accuracy to the limit, get a tighter aperture for your rear sight. Enfields are capable of excellent accuracy, and far greater than their "issue" sights allow.

Alan De Enfield · 10-20-2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AimHigh

Now have pictures (if i can figure out how to load them)

The serial numbers on the bolt handle and receiver match. There is no ser.no. on the barrel but it does have the commercial proof markings: crown over BNP and 303 2 222 (and below it) 18.5 tons per (square box) ". The barrel is also stamped with a large "44" and a "II" below it. The Canadian "C and arrow or tree" is marked on various parts. bothe the receiver and bolt head have an "X" with a "D" to the left and a "P" under it. The one on the receiver may have a C or F also.

Again, no import marks were seen. I have 7 other milsurps and all have import marks. -AimHigh

Did you take the dealer up on the offer to test fire it for you ?

I'm not familiar with the markings DXP but DP marked on the metalwork would make me think DP = Drill Purpose only (not to be fired).
Although the civilian proof markes would post-date the military DP marks.

It might be well worth while getting a gunsmith who knows about Enfields to have a look at it before you shoot it.

SightNSqueeze · 10-20-2009, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan De Enfield

Did you take the dealer up on the offer to test fire it for you ?

I'm not familiar with the markings DXP but DP marked on the metalwork would make me think DP = Drill Purpose only (not to be fired).
Although the civilian proof markes would post-date the military DP marks.

It might be well worth while getting a gunsmith who knows about Enfields to have a look at it before you shoot it.

Alan, are we certain about the DP/DXP acronym implying "drill purpose only?" Admittedly, I didn't see any such markings on my 1942 made Savage Arms .303 N0. 4, Mk 1* so I would not be a good authority in that area. I'm also inclined to believe that most western nations would have "plugged" the barrel to prevent chambering a round. Just guessing of course.

AimHigh · 10-20-2009, 04:07 PM

Alan and "Squeeze":

I went to: PROOF MARKS
and my proof marks look like what they say is "early long branch"
but my letters are in the "wrong places" The "D" is to the left, the "P" is underneath, and what looks like a "C" is to the right with nothing on the top. Also the "flags" look more like sticks. I did some research and found that the non-firing Enfields given to cadets for training purposes were made totally inop with no chance to restore to firing order.

To answer a previous question: Neither I or the dealer fired the rifle. I wanted to clean the barrel as much as I could first.

-AimHigh

SightNSqueeze · 10-20-2009, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AimHigh

Alan and "Squeeze":

I went to: PROOF MARKS
and my proof marks look like what they say is "early long branch"
but my letters are in the "wrong places" The "D" is to the left, the "P" is underneath, and what looks like a "C" is to the right with nothing on the top. Also the "flags" look more like sticks. I did some research and found that the non-firing Enfields given to cadets for training purposes were made totally inop with no chance to restore to firing order.

To answer a previous question: Neither I or the dealer fired the rifle. I wanted to clean the barrel as much as I could first.

-AimHigh

It's funny you mentioned the locations of the letters. A lot of proof stamps were applied by different people and at different times in the manufacturing process at arsenals around the world. Certainly, Long Branch was no exception. Therefore, they might not necessarily be in the same places from rifle to rifle. The sticks are undoubtedly part of the flag die that didn't strike the steel hard enough. I run into quite a few uneven code and proof stamps throughout my collection of military rifles. Some of these arsenals were producing thousands of rifles "per day" and some of the "less critical" procedures like identification and proof stamps did not get the same care and attention as other parts of the process.

Just from what I can see in your images, you have a fine looking specimen. Now I’m curious to know whether you have a 5-groove bore. You’ll know when you get intimate with that ammonia, water, cleaning solvent and a brass brush. If there are a few pits, don’t let it bother you. Some of my finest shooters have some of those.

.22guy · 10-20-2009, 05:52 PM

Keep it!

E_005 · 10-20-2009, 06:49 PM

If the numbers match $250 is a fair price from what I've seen. I passed on one at that price to get a non matching Long Branch no 4 mkI* with beat up wood but a great barrel for $129 at a show a few months ago because I wanted a shooter. I WOULD DEFINITELY HAVE A SMITH LOOK IT OVER AND CHECK HEAD SPACE BEFORE SHOOTING IT. It won't cost much for the safety factor. If it checks out keep it.

Alan De Enfield · 10-21-2009, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SightNSqueeze

Alan, are we certain about the DP/DXP acronym implying "drill purpose only?" Admittedly, I didn't see any such markings on my 1942 made Savage Arms .303 N0. 4, Mk 1* so I would not be a good authority in that area. I'm also inclined to believe that most western nations would have "plugged" the barrel to prevent chambering a round. Just guessing of course.

"Civilian" DP'ing (or deactivating) normally involves some form of making the rifle inoperable (welding/cutting the action, plugging the barrel etc) but Military DP'ing was often just painting stripes on the woodwork and stamping DP of the rifle in various places.

Generally 'shot-out' or unsafe rifles were used for DP but it is not unknown for a 'good' rifle to have been taken from stores and marked DP if additional DP rifles were needed.

As I said DXP is unknown to me, it may well be that the rifle is not DP and I dont want to cause you alarm but its always better to play on the safe side if its going to go 'bang' inches away from your eyes etc.

10-19-2009, 11:16 AM	#1
AimHigh Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Roswell, NM Posts: 69	*Keep or Return (No. 4 Mk1)** I was a at a local gun shop this past weekend and bought a No. 4 Mk I* Long Branch, 1944. Stock is almost perfect, about 98-99% blue (butt plate is "heavily" used), crown is "ok", sling included. No bayonet, no oiler (I assume one goes in the stock). Bore was shiney in the store. However, after I got it home I went to work alternating K12, Hoppes #9, foaming bore cleaner throught it, and pulled out a lot of copper - with a lot to go. This are no import marks on it - anywhere. While the "out side" was clean, I don't think anybody ever removed the action/barrel from the stock as it was caked with cosmoline. Cleaned up very well. This is my first Enfield. The store owner really didn't know what he had and said he paid cash for it from "some kid from the mid west who needed money". Charged me $250. I guess he probably made about $50 off me. He also volunteered to test fire it for me and said if I didn't like it he would refund my money. The big question is ---- Did it get ripped off, or (if it does shoot) is this a fair deal? Should I ask for my $ back or keep it? Sorry, no pictures yet. -AimHigh

10-19-2009, 11:28 AM	#2
wunhunglo Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: currently "Sunny West Africa" Posts: 4,102	I would keep it, but then again I live in a different country (some mights say 'world') where even an American #4 at $250 is dirt cheap. You should really have the headspace checked but I'm sure most folks will say just shoot it first & see how it shoots. Unless the barrel is really shot out, I reckon you'll be taken with how well it performs. __________________ How can I 'Soar with the Eagles' when I'm working with such 'Turkeys'!

10-19-2009, 11:34 AM	#3
Archetype_wyo Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Buffalo, Wyo Posts: 1,731	+1 if you don't like it, let one of us know. I know I've been wantin an Enfield for a while and if I can get a good line on one I will be setting some money aside. __________________ The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun. —Patrick Henry

10-19-2009, 12:02 PM	#5
SightNSqueeze Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Intercoastal Sea Islands, SC, USA Posts: 2,725	Your Mk 4, No. 1 sounds like it is in pretty good shape. Most of the Enfields that I've seen in the past few years are. $250 sounds about right too. Don't expect MOA accuracy with the present sights. Enfields are a lot more accurate than their rear sights allow. You can get a tighter aftermarket aperture ring to go in your rear sight if you feel compelled. Clean up the bore really well and let us know how it shoots. You will probably be surprised. By the way, somebody here on G&G found some Mk 9 “blade” bayonets w/o the scabbards for just $5 each. Correct Enfield slings are cheap too. __________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Was "Your" Voice Heard Today? NRA-ILA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

10-19-2009, 05:55 PM	#6
nathangdad Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 5,172	Not a bad deal but not a great deal on design that has been out of production for many, many years. I would get the bore slugged. Although it is a touchy subject with owners of this gun there was such a rush to produce them in WW2 sometimes wide variations in bore diameter were accepted by the military and put into service. If you do not know how to do this process just about any gunsmith can push the material through the barrel then take a micrometer to the end product. If you have a really good bore diameter and strong riflings then good for you.

10-19-2009, 11:56 AM	#4
big boomer Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Minn. Posts: 2,310	clean out the barrel totally and decide i would keep it enfields are going up and getting harder to find

10-19-2009, 06:54 PM	#7
Capt'n Mil Coll Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Right behind you. -NRA Member- Posts: 3,391 Images: 45	Your question is did you get a good deal. I would say you got a fair deal. If there is still a lot of copper in it use one part ammonia to two parts water and it will clean up faster. Then just clean again with some hoppes or what ever is your choice of cleaner. Enfields are a very nice actioned rifle. While it depends on the rifle if it is accurate or not most are not great. As far as your purchase I would definately keep it. I paid more for one that the wood is not the best. But the metal was really good. __________________ Let's light this fuse and see what happens!

10-19-2009, 09:25 PM	#8
192ndkid Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Miami Posts: 121	I say keep it..! It is your choice but you bought for a reason..! now start searching for ammo, I just found 150 rounds a Greek hxp for less than 100 dollars..When I get back from the sand box I am going to try and score a mk1 no 4 1955 FAZ but they are running real high now. __________________ On the 8th day God created the Infantry... and Hell stood at Attention..1-124 INF FL N.G KID Last edited by 192ndkid; 10-19-2009 at 09:27 PM.

10-19-2009, 10:34 PM	#9
Flaming Day Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Currently on a marching field,getting yelled at for uneven stick heights.Darn left hand. Posts: 112	I say keep it.I love my Enfield,it's my favorite.$250 does sound a bit on the high side but its not totally outrageous. __________________ Watch The Trees!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

10-20-2009, 08:21 AM	#10
Big Dog Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 12,912	Shoot it before deciding to part with it. I bought a No.1 Mk.III awhile back, a 'junker' I thought, and planned to make a project of it. Made the mistake of cleaning and shooting it first. That rifle shot a tight set of groups! So I fully restored it to it's former glory. Let the rifle show what it can do, and 'talk' to you. __________________ "A bold spirit embiggens the smallest man!" Jebediah Springfield

10-20-2009, 11:50 AM	#11
AimHigh Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Roswell, NM Posts: 69	Now have pictures (if i can figure out how to load them) The serial numbers on the bolt handle and receiver match. There is no ser.no. on the barrel but it does have the commercial proof markings: crown over BNP and 303 2 222 (and below it) 18.5 tons per (square box) ". The barrel is also stamped with a large "44" and a "II" below it. The Canadian "C and arrow or tree" is marked on various parts. bothe the receiver and bolt head have an "X" with a "D" to the left and a "P" under it. The one on the receiver may have a C or F also. Again, no import marks were seen. I have 7 other milsurps and all have import marks. -AimHigh Attached Thumbnails

10-20-2009, 11:57 AM	#12
twtalbot Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Louisiana Posts: 424	Keep it. When the importers had them in stock, they sold them for $180-$200, so $250 from a dealer or private owner ain't bad. If you've got strong rifling, don't be alarmed by copper fouling. This is a 60+ year old service rifle, not a 6mm PPC benchrest job. I've never been able to get a truly clean patch out of my Savage #4 MKI and it'll shoot 2 1/4 MOA with the original sights. I have a K98k Mauser with a dark (but strongly rifled) bore with visible pits that shoots under 3 MOA. Don't judge a barrel till you've shot it. __________________ My rifle and pistol are only tools. I am the weapon.

10-20-2009, 04:07 PM	#16
AimHigh Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Roswell, NM Posts: 69	Proof Marks Alan and "Squeeze": I went to: PROOF MARKS and my proof marks look like what they say is "early long branch" but my letters are in the "wrong places" The "D" is to the left, the "P" is underneath, and what looks like a "C" is to the right with nothing on the top. Also the "flags" look more like sticks. I did some research and found that the non-firing Enfields given to cadets for training purposes were made totally inop with no chance to restore to firing order. To answer a previous question: Neither I or the dealer fired the rifle. I wanted to clean the barrel as much as I could first. -AimHigh

10-20-2009, 05:52 PM	#18
.22guy Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 5,221	Keep it! __________________ My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban as soon as I take office.

10-20-2009, 06:49 PM	#19
E_005 Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 53	If the numbers match $250 is a fair price from what I've seen. I passed on one at that price to get a non matching Long Branch no 4 mkI* with beat up wood but a great barrel for $129 at a show a few months ago because I wanted a shooter. I WOULD DEFINITELY HAVE A SMITH LOOK IT OVER AND CHECK HEAD SPACE BEFORE SHOOTING IT. It won't cost much for the safety factor. If it checks out keep it.