If your gun malfunctions your a felon

TACAV · 03-15-2008, 07:42 PM

This was on Lou Dobbs tonight.

A Wisconsin father of three with several years active military, and honorable discharge, and still serving in reserves with no criminal recored etc was charged and convicted in court of feloniously transferring a machine gun

What did he do?
He loaned his legally owned 20 year old Olympic Arms Semi Auto AR15 to a friend, and while shooting the gun at the local gun club the gun malfunctioned and fired off 3 rounds in full auto before it jammed.

What happend? The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, local PD SWAT Team, and sheriffs dept. crashed through his homes door confiscated all of his perfectly legal guns, and then charged him with illegally transferring a machine gun. And he was convicted.

He has since lost his job as a DI in the army reserves due to his felony conviction.

WHAT?!?!?!?!

Is the NRA gonna do something?
Drill instructor convicted after rifle jams
2nd Amendment Under Fire, What’s next? Justmytruth’s Weblog

thomasbrooks07 · 03-15-2008, 08:25 PM

thats really messed up I feel for the guy. How did he get in trouble for that if hes military isnt it legal for him to have full auto weapons? I am a civi still and I prefer bolt action rifles so I know little to nothing about class 3 firearms and the licenses. I hope that a judge apeals that ruling cuz thats just wrong what happend to that man and his family.

GlockMeister · 03-15-2008, 08:51 PM

Yes, a load of pure horse pucky and cow pies. What I'm not understanding, is if it has been proven that a part was worn or broken, and was shown to be the cause of the full auto malfunction, why did they still pursue this against him? Why didn't his lawyer call to the witness stand, someone from Olympic Arms to verify this 1986 recall and to verify it can happen, how it can and so on? Lots of hinky stuff to this.
One has to wonder, is there more that meets the eye here? Did/does someone simply have it out for this guy or what? I mean, people do have common sense still and I just can't believe that if a gunsmith and tests done has found a worn or broken part, recalls notices and so on, why couldn't someone see this was all an accident and/or a misunderstanding?

You gotta feel for the guy, his career (well the one he had anyhow) and his family.

ArkansasHunter · 03-15-2008, 09:21 PM

What can we do to help him ?

Deersniper · 03-15-2008, 09:40 PM

I guess that's supposed to scare us. I don't think it's going to work. We need to identify that judge and the prosecutor and put their names all over the Internet to expose this crap. We need to post all antis on a world wide list and pull up their public records and post them for all to see. If we don't we'll end up like the monks in China.

LarryO1970 · 03-15-2008, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArkansasHunter

What can we do to help him ?

... this is the Wisconsin I've been telling you guys about, completely anti-gun political leadership and this guy is the fall-guy for their political anti-gun agenda.

Maybe a petition will help? I have no idea ...

F1609 · 03-16-2008, 01:28 AM

theres has to be some kind of proof on the AR-15 itself, atleast they said AR-15 instead of M-16, that proves he did not do anything.

LarryO1970 · 03-16-2008, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1609

theres has to be some kind of proof on the AR-15 itself, atleast they said AR-15 instead of M-16, that proves he did not do anything.

I wonder if this same outcome would have happened anywhere else but this anti-gun Democrat (Doyle) lead state?

There would have to be proof within the trigger group... a worn part that would allow that to happen. For those familiar with the M60 machinegun ... a worn sear would cause what is called a "runaway gun" ... a full auto fire until the ammo supply is eaten. My guess is that something similar happened in this case... and the anti-gunners and politicians within Wisconsin are eating this guy alive for something that was not his fault.

Frankly, this man should be apologized to, exonerated and cleared of any wrong doing. In addition, he should be given his job and life back too.

Clear and simple, the Govt. fuc**d up.

.22hustler · 03-16-2008, 11:30 AM

Being an armorer during my years, 1970-72, I know very well of runaways in M-60's.I had 6 of them I pulled maintenance for my artillery battery.If it happened, and you were quick enough, you could break the belt apart,LOL.

billy · 03-16-2008, 01:00 PM

One has to wonder, is there more that meets the eye here? Did/does someone simply have it out for this guy or what? unquote

everytime i see one of these type of posts i wonder.
i know unfair things happen but a good lawer would have pounced on this and got it dismissed so fast!
what else did this guy do?
i dont think we got the whole story once again.

people get gun charges brought upon them all the time in america.
you know what?
most of the time they are GUILTY and need to be in prison.

ezearln · 03-16-2008, 01:17 PM

I agree with Billy on this one I think theres a whole lot more to this than what we have gotten... In my 20+ years as a Armorer and instructor I never did have an M60 runaway but I do know it can and does happen... I also know that certain parts do wear and break that can cause this in any semi auto firearm. I wonder if the guy would have be charged had this happened in say a ruger 10/22???

LarryO1970 · 03-16-2008, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by .22hustler

Being an armorer during my years, 1970-72, I know very well of runaways in M-60's.I had 6 of them I pulled maintenance for my artillery battery.If it happened, and you were quick enough, you could break the belt apart,LOL.

Exactly... and this was due to a worn sear in the trigger group that caused the runaway gun.

AR-15/M-16's can have the same problem(granted, they are constructed differently) and obviously it did happen... especially given how old and worn the gun was.

This is Liberal Democrats gone wild (Doyle) here in Wisconsin... a state that everybody knows is anti-gun within Madison and Milwaukee. No wonder why the people of this state avoid Madison and Milwaukee...

knightRider · 03-16-2008, 05:17 PM

booooooooooooo

soonerborn · 03-16-2008, 07:16 PM

I have been following this case for a while now. The ATF tested the gun and found it to be "NOT A MACHINEGUN". The agent in charge ordered a retest done and instructed the lab to use soft primer ammo and presto its a machine gun. The malfunction noted by the ATF is "hammer follow", yes they know its a malfunction. No, they dont care. The DA prosecuting the case specifically argued that by fed law "ANY GUN THAT FIRES MORE THAN ONE BULLET IS A MACHINEGUN, REGARDLESS IF ITS INTENTIONAL OR A MALFUNCTION".

Yes, this guy is getting railroaded. No, there is not some big secret that once exposed will prove this guy to be a criminal. He was charged and convicted on one count "illegal transfer of a machinegun". This has went to trial and the jury convicted so there is no secret except all the evidence that would have cleared this guy that the judge and DA tossed out, excluded and refused to give to the guys lawyer. They wouldnt even let him or anyone else examine the gun, only ATF can examine it.

texnmidwest · 03-16-2008, 09:10 PM

I hope they appeal. I also hope it goes all the way to the supreme court. In Wisconsin they way the laws are worded if you are carrying a simple pocket knife it can be considered a concealed weapon and you can technically be charged.

Wisconsin needs a new Governor. I can't wait to vote against him again.

LarryO1970 · 03-16-2008, 09:33 PM

texnmidwest... us, along with other Wisconsin residents will ban together and take Doyle out of office. That clown has been nothing but consistent in voting against the 2nd Amendment rights of Wisconsinites.

We at least have a chance with J. B. Van Hollen... he's a pro-gun Republican.

GlockMeister · 03-16-2008, 11:32 PM

While the whole thing is sad, what's been forgotten, is this guy put in his years in the service. Now, not only due to this has he lost his job, but they'll more then likely take his pension away.

Why is it, everyone can see this is wrong, that the guy is being screwed, yet no one can help. What if this was one of us? Someone we knew?

LarryO1970 · 03-17-2008, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlockMeister

While the whole thing is sad, what's been forgotten, is this guy put in his years in the service. Now, not only due to this has he lost his job, but they'll more then likely take his pension away.

Why is it, everyone can see this is wrong, that the guy is being screwed, yet no one can help. What if this was one of us? Someone we knew?

I will fire off a letter to Wisconsin Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen on his behalf. Given the fact I'm just a nobody who happens to reside in Wisconsin... maybe others, to include other Wisconsin residents, can do the same.

Realistically, what else can we do? Will the NRA or GOA help? Are there military organizations that can help? Anybody?

ezearln · 03-17-2008, 09:28 AM

Let me see if I got this right, this guy was tried and convicted in a Wisconsin STATE Court on a "Federal Law" charge of illegally "Transferring" an "Automatic Firearm" seems to me the logical next step is to drag the resident Assistant U.S. Attorney into it as well as the federal Court to get this ridiculous mess overturned. Does anyone else here smell the stink of a skunk in the henhouse? Here's a question for everyone ""Why was a case involving a suspected violation of a FEDERAL LAW, allowed to be handled by a local yokel DA and tried in a State Court instead of being handled by the ATF, US Marshals and the U.S. District Court for Wisconsin, who would have been the proper authority???"

And I wonder why the Judge supressed evidence that would have shown that the weapon was NOT a machine gun by ATF itself and would have cleared this man.

There is more at work here that just an assinine Judge and DA gentle readers.

Corrections folks I didn't get all the correct info, seems as if this was tried at the federal level, but somehow if I read it right the Judge failed to follow a precedent set in a much earlier case (1999) which would have made it possible to completely dismiss this case...

TACAV · 03-17-2008, 12:06 PM

In the very least, whether if this guy was "shady" or not, Or if someone really wanted to "stick it too him" for whatever reason,

Im looking at this case as a dangerous court precedent for future gun rights cases.

03-15-2008, 08:51 PM	#3
GlockMeister Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Northern Illinois Posts: 9,667	Yes, a load of pure horse pucky and cow pies. What I'm not understanding, is if it has been proven that a part was worn or broken, and was shown to be the cause of the full auto malfunction, why did they still pursue this against him? Why didn't his lawyer call to the witness stand, someone from Olympic Arms to verify this 1986 recall and to verify it can happen, how it can and so on? Lots of hinky stuff to this. One has to wonder, is there more that meets the eye here? Did/does someone simply have it out for this guy or what? I mean, people do have common sense still and I just can't believe that if a gunsmith and tests done has found a worn or broken part, recalls notices and so on, why couldn't someone see this was all an accident and/or a misunderstanding? You gotta feel for the guy, his career (well the one he had anyhow) and his family. __________________ "The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." "Edmond Burke" Last edited by GlockMeister; 03-15-2008 at 09:14 PM.

03-15-2008, 09:21 PM	#4
ArkansasHunter Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: South Arkansas. Posts: 17,196	What can we do to help him ? __________________ IN GOD WE TRUST NRA MEMBER

03-15-2008, 09:40 PM	#5
Deersniper Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,607	Malfunction of the govt. I guess that's supposed to scare us. I don't think it's going to work. We need to identify that judge and the prosecutor and put their names all over the Internet to expose this crap. We need to post all antis on a world wide list and pull up their public records and post them for all to see. If we don't we'll end up like the monks in China.

03-16-2008, 01:00 PM	#10
billy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 19,718 Images: 10 Blog Entries: 161	One has to wonder, is there more that meets the eye here? Did/does someone simply have it out for this guy or what? unquote everytime i see one of these type of posts i wonder. i know unfair things happen but a good lawer would have pounced on this and got it dismissed so fast! what else did this guy do? i dont think we got the whole story once again. people get gun charges brought upon them all the time in america. you know what? most of the time they are GUILTY and need to be in prison. __________________ Last edited by billy; 03-16-2008 at 01:02 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

03-16-2008, 01:17 PM	#11
ezearln Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 3,605	I agree with Billy on this one I think theres a whole lot more to this than what we have gotten... In my 20+ years as a Armorer and instructor I never did have an M60 runaway but I do know it can and does happen... I also know that certain parts do wear and break that can cause this in any semi auto firearm. I wonder if the guy would have be charged had this happened in say a ruger 10/22??? __________________ "You can have my Freedom when I'm done with it!"

03-15-2008, 07:42 PM	#1
TACAV Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,535	This was on Lou Dobbs tonight. A Wisconsin father of three with several years active military, and honorable discharge, and still serving in reserves with no criminal recored etc was charged and convicted in court of feloniously transferring a machine gun What did he do? He loaned his legally owned 20 year old Olympic Arms Semi Auto AR15 to a friend, and while shooting the gun at the local gun club the gun malfunctioned and fired off 3 rounds in full auto before it jammed. What happend? The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, local PD SWAT Team, and sheriffs dept. crashed through his homes door confiscated all of his perfectly legal guns, and then charged him with illegally transferring a machine gun. And he was convicted. He has since lost his job as a DI in the army reserves due to his felony conviction. WHAT?!?!?!?! Is the NRA gonna do something? Drill instructor convicted after rifle jams 2nd Amendment Under Fire, What’s next? Justmytruth’s Weblog

03-15-2008, 08:25 PM	#2
thomasbrooks07 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Washington Posts: 224	thats really messed up I feel for the guy. How did he get in trouble for that if hes military isnt it legal for him to have full auto weapons? I am a civi still and I prefer bolt action rifles so I know little to nothing about class 3 firearms and the licenses. I hope that a judge apeals that ruling cuz thats just wrong what happend to that man and his family.

03-16-2008, 01:28 AM	#7
F1609 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Medina, Ohio Posts: 208 Images: 7	theres has to be some kind of proof on the AR-15 itself, atleast they said AR-15 instead of M-16, that proves he did not do anything.

03-16-2008, 11:30 AM	#9
.22hustler Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: New York Posts: 2,468	Being an armorer during my years, 1970-72, I know very well of runaways in M-60's.I had 6 of them I pulled maintenance for my artillery battery.If it happened, and you were quick enough, you could break the belt apart,LOL.

03-16-2008, 05:17 PM	#13
knightRider Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: you know where Posts: 3,777 Images: 19 Blog Entries: 17	booooooooooooo __________________ God doesn't give rights. Men have to fight for them.

03-16-2008, 07:16 PM	#14
soonerborn Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 409	I have been following this case for a while now. The ATF tested the gun and found it to be "NOT A MACHINEGUN". The agent in charge ordered a retest done and instructed the lab to use soft primer ammo and presto its a machine gun. The malfunction noted by the ATF is "hammer follow", yes they know its a malfunction. No, they dont care. The DA prosecuting the case specifically argued that by fed law "ANY GUN THAT FIRES MORE THAN ONE BULLET IS A MACHINEGUN, REGARDLESS IF ITS INTENTIONAL OR A MALFUNCTION". Yes, this guy is getting railroaded. No, there is not some big secret that once exposed will prove this guy to be a criminal. He was charged and convicted on one count "illegal transfer of a machinegun". This has went to trial and the jury convicted so there is no secret except all the evidence that would have cleared this guy that the judge and DA tossed out, excluded and refused to give to the guys lawyer. They wouldnt even let him or anyone else examine the gun, only ATF can examine it.

03-16-2008, 09:10 PM	#15
texnmidwest Some People's kids.... Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: South east Wisconsin Posts: 6,975	I hope they appeal. I also hope it goes all the way to the supreme court. In Wisconsin they way the laws are worded if you are carrying a simple pocket knife it can be considered a concealed weapon and you can technically be charged. Wisconsin needs a new Governor. I can't wait to vote against him again. __________________ never pass up a bathroom, never waste a ** , and never trust a fart.

03-16-2008, 09:33 PM	#16
LarryO1970 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Johnson Creek, WI Posts: 5,606 Blog Entries: 1	texnmidwest... us, along with other Wisconsin residents will ban together and take Doyle out of office. That clown has been nothing but consistent in voting against the 2nd Amendment rights of Wisconsinites. We at least have a chance with J. B. Van Hollen... he's a pro-gun Republican. __________________ Give the GOV a harumph !

03-16-2008, 11:32 PM	#17
GlockMeister Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Northern Illinois Posts: 9,667	While the whole thing is sad, what's been forgotten, is this guy put in his years in the service. Now, not only due to this has he lost his job, but they'll more then likely take his pension away. Why is it, everyone can see this is wrong, that the guy is being screwed, yet no one can help. What if this was one of us? Someone we knew? __________________ "The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion." "Edmond Burke"

03-17-2008, 09:28 AM	#19
ezearln Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 3,605	Let me see if I got this right, this guy was tried and convicted in a Wisconsin STATE Court on a "Federal Law" charge of illegally "Transferring" an "Automatic Firearm" seems to me the logical next step is to drag the resident Assistant U.S. Attorney into it as well as the federal Court to get this ridiculous mess overturned. Does anyone else here smell the stink of a skunk in the henhouse? Here's a question for everyone ""Why was a case involving a suspected violation of a FEDERAL LAW, allowed to be handled by a local yokel DA and tried in a State Court instead of being handled by the ATF, US Marshals and the U.S. District Court for Wisconsin, who would have been the proper authority???" And I wonder why the Judge supressed evidence that would have shown that the weapon was NOT a machine gun by ATF itself and would have cleared this man. There is more at work here that just an assinine Judge and DA gentle readers. Corrections folks I didn't get all the correct info, seems as if this was tried at the federal level, but somehow if I read it right the Judge failed to follow a precedent set in a much earlier case (1999) which would have made it possible to completely dismiss this case... __________________ "You can have my Freedom when I'm done with it!" Last edited by ezearln; 03-17-2008 at 10:01 AM.

03-17-2008, 12:06 PM	#20
TACAV Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,535	In the very least, whether if this guy was "shady" or not, Or if someone really wanted to "stick it too him" for whatever reason, Im looking at this case as a dangerous court precedent for future gun rights cases.