What is the best group from a standard FN FAL?

[TeachMeAboutGun]

Yes, indeed, the standard 21 inch barrel. Nothing fancy. It could be iron sights, or scoped rifle.

I just want to know the average group FN FAL, or Stg 58, or SA 58 standard rifles are printing at 100 yards under normal weather and wind condition.

Can someone please educate me on this one? I have done research on the internet on this topic, and found only one source which states, "Don't expect the FN FAL to perform with pinpoint accuracy of a sniper rifle because it was not intended to be one." All right, that is good and well, but it still does not answer my question.

Thank you for taking the time.

Yours,

PK

[BattleRifleG3]

I don't have a FAL, but owners have told of groups as good as Sub-MOA, with normal groups ranging from 2moa to 4moa. Many people I've heard from can shoot 2moa with open sites. I guess my eyes aren't that good because I can only approach MOA with a scope, and only with bolt guns and my G3.

MOA by the way means Minute Of Angle, roughly 1" groups at 100yd, 2" at 200, etc.

Now who built the FAL factors greatly into this. A US company called DSA makes target grade FALs with heavy barrels and free floated handguards. They should be expected to get sub-MOA.

[TeachMeAboutGun]

Back in the late 1980s or early 1990s I owned 2 HK 91. I didn't like them because the recoil was so unpleasant. Also, the lower receiver does not fit tightly and has a bit of play with the upper receiver.

Of course, the genuine G3 has the lower and upper receivers tied together with a pin at the hinge thereby eliminating any kind of play.

I have been reading with great interest fellow gun enthusiasts here who really like the Spanish CETME rilfe. They are saying that the recoil is pleasant, and unpunishing.

Now I am reading that you are also a G3 lover.

Pray tell, which manufacturer made your rifle? Who was the wholesaler, if you bought it would you share as to when and how much you paid for your? I am interested.

Of late, I have seen that there is an American company that makes them. This company claims to make better ones than the Century variety. Their price range is in the neighborhood of $700.00 retail for a standard rifle, and about $1400 for a collapasable stock one - all in the 7.62 NATO. Still I see that the upper and lower receiver are not secured together with a pin as the real G3 are made.

Absent that stability, I said to myself that the next best rifle in that caliber is the FAL and varients. I eliminated the Century Arms ones since they are made from parts.

DSArms of Lake Barrington, Illinois is the best there is on the market. No, I don't work for them, but I have to say that the owner is a really nice and gracious man. I thought he was going to be like an old crusty sailor, but when I met him he was most cortial and kind to me. His products are second to none, and really high quality.

The subject is G3. So, can a fellow 7.62 NATO friend tell me what you think is best in the G3 that is current as of January 2005?

Thank you for your feedback.

Yours,

PK

[BattleRifleG3]

Wow, for a guy called Teachmeaboutgun, you seem to already know quite a bit!

My G3 is Century built on an FA-91 aluminum receiver. I've never had a problem with the recoil myself. But I'm generally not recoil sensitive. I've considered having a 24" heavy barrel by JLD installed. I paid $500 + fees for mine about four years ago. I probably could have done better had I waited and looked around, but mine came with a wide handguard adapted for the thicker receiver. I think I did ok. Nowadays they're harder to find and that price is pretty good.

JLD Enterprises makes the PTR-91, a heavy barreled version of the HK-91 using new US and HK parts. That sounds like what you were talking about at $700.

For a lighter tactical carbine, I'd lean towards a build by Ohio Rapid Fire for a little less money. They also build FALs for I think comparable prices.

The big selling point of G3s these days is the fact that military mags can be had for as low as $2. Can't beat that even for new post-expiration manufacture.

Regarding the pin holding the original G3 receiver to the trigger group, I believe that's one of the criteria that distinguishes a full auto from a semi, so it would be illegal to add to a current semi-auto G3 derivative.

Regarding the CETME, practically all are Century assembled, and you have the same problems as any other Century build. Only thing is that I think the FALs are easier to fix if Century makes a boo boo.

I don't really know that much, but am happy to share what I can. Though my screenname is BattleRifleG3, I've since become far more familiar with the AK system. Another thing about me is, though my guns are many, my money is nill, as I'm a poor college student. I suspect that when I'm employed full time without any wife or kids, I'll be covering other areas of the spectrum, like DSA FALs and more G3s. I currently have no FAL, one G3, and five AKs. The balance probably won't be so tipped when I have more money.

My advice as someone who has never thought he had enough money to buy the best out there is just buy what you want and don't try stopping along the way to buy what you don't want as much. If I'd bought a $1000 gun four years ago I wouldn't have spent several times as much since then on lesser guns. I knew better by the time I bought my first handgun. If I'd settled for an Arcus or a Makarov (no offense to either) I'd still be buying handguns. But I can't think of a better handgun overall than the one I have. Any more handguns I get will be specialized, ie target, CCW, hunting, but none will be as good for all of the above than my Steyr M40.

[TeachMeAboutGun]

Dear BattleRifleG3,

I humbly will always remain a student because there are those who will always know more, shoot better, and have much better skills than I do. I am but a humble novice and here to learn from you and others. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. It's very helpful to me in widening my learning.

Well, my new friend, what make and caliber of AKs have you got? I myself have SAR 3 x 3. That' right. I have 3 rifles. I have 2 teenage boys, and one day when they demonstrate that they are respectful of firearms, the value of life, and think and behave with maturity, they will own 1 boy each a Glock 21 (45 acp), SAR3 (AK in .223) and Strungewere 58 (Austrian FN FAL in 7.62 NATO). That should be plenty to defend their lives and that of their wives and kids when they have their own families. Since they are highschoolers, it will be many years from now yet. There is still a matter of 4 years of college and then graduate school - should that be what they want. (Meanwhile, I am in the process of upgrading the SAR3 with new front sight and AK 74 flash suppressor, entirely replacing the fire control system with Red Star Arm system, new Bulgarian furniture, and then parkerizing finish since the original factory job was substanstand. I thought the Europeans take pride in their workmanship! I guess only the Germans, Austrians, Czecks, French, Polish, Russians, Norwegians, Swiss, Swedes, and Italians do when it comes to manufacturing fine firearms. Sorry, Great Britain - if not for engineers at H&K, the problems in the design and manufacturing of your assualt rifles probably would never have gotten fixed.

Any way, coming back to AKs, I believe the premier manufacturer in the US bar none has to be Arsenal USA. There are others, but the products of this company is truly top of the line. THey are expensive, however, and their customer service ladies should receive more training is customer service skills. Otherwise, they have got to be the premier product lines. Their parent company is Arsenal of Bulgaria. In fact, I understand the US Government when had choices to choose from in order to rearm the new Iraqi Armed Forces, it chose Arsenal of Bulgaria. The prices the Russians, Poles, and others want to sell their small arms for were outrageous. On top of that, Arsenal is top quality in all the things they make and sell.

I like the 5.56x 45 mm caliber since this is what we use here in the States. Should there be a national emergency, it would be a devil of a time trying to get 7.62x 39mm or 5.45 x 39mm, or any thing that is none American.

The only problem is that the magazines aren't cheap from Interordinance at $15.00 each. They are very high quality as they were made in East Germany.

As for the Arsenal USA .223 rifle, it's a milled receiver. Very high quality, but heavy. On the other hand, Arsenal recommends buying magazines from K-Var, but K-Var has been out of magazines for that rifle for the lognest time and does not know when to get them again. (At the present, I am still waiting on the front sight assembly from K-Var for the past 3 months now on back order).

Any way, I am really enjoying talking with you. I best end now so it does not appear that I am rambling on and on endlessly.

It has been a pleasure making your acquaintance.

Yours,

PK

[TULAver]

TeachMe, you taught me a little bit actually. But I will bring up one point which I think you should rethink.

You stated that during a time of emergency, that 5.56 ammo would be available when 7.62 or 5.45 would not. I think, no offense, that this is backward. As you also stated, the US uses 5.56 ammo, therefore, during a true state of emergency, the ammo compatible with the majority of our government issued arms will be LESS easy to get. Add that to the fact that even WITH 5.56 as our standard NATO rifle calibre, that 7.62x39 is still cheaper and more abundant on the market, and I think you'll see what I mean. 7.62x39 Remington mfc is just about as easy to find as imported Wolf in my area, and unless some truly radical **** happens, I don't see that changing.

Not saying that 5.56 WOULD become hard to get, just saying that it would get scarce before 7.62x39, just because there's nowhere NEAR as much of it in the US, or in the rest of the world for that matter. The AK IS still the most widely adopted and produced battle rifle of all time, after all.

If you're worried about ammo availability in the US, these are your sure bets in my opinon.

1)12ga(or as I like to call it, King of the Hall)
2)7.62x39
3).30-06
4)5.56x45(you're covered there obviously)
5).308

.270 is another great round that will be readily available for a long time, but the only gun that I know of that uses it and would still be plausible for home defense(no offense bolt lovers) is the DSA Hunter model in .270.

As for pistol calibres, seems to me:

1)9mm Luger
2).45ACP
3).22 LR(most plentiful by FAR but least effective)
4).38
5)everything else

Modern rounds seem to have alleviated the tradeoff between 9mm and 45acp, with many 9mm types showing less tendency for overpenetration, and better expansion than older types, while modern 45acp loads are offering better accuracy and flatter trajectory. There will always be the tradeoff of ammo capacity Vs knockdown power though. I choose 9mm for the higher magazine capacities and the abundance of ammo though. No particular favourites here.

[BattleRifleG3]

DSA Hunter? Not a bolt action? Please tell more! And glad to see you around again, TULAver!

[willypete]

hey guys check out this http://survival-center.com/ ok as far as availability of ammo goes i think that TULAver is right, however if there is a mass panic because of a nuclear, biological, terrorist, or other apocolyptic scenario then people are going to storm into wal-mart and oshman's/ sports authority/ modell's and try hording ammo.. after 9/11 ammo sales increased (approx) 148%. gun sales were up by 60% what i have been doing is SLOWLY buying survival gear, water purification, water storage items, camp stove, tents, etc. also i am trying to invest in more ammo. no i am not crazy, i am not really all that paranoid, i just feel like if the &$%* hits the fan again then i am not going to be one of those people you see on the news in wal-mart in florida when a hurricane is coming... also on a side note why do most americans have a pervasive feeling that some doomsday or apocolyptic scenario is going to happen.. a short list of films....... red dawn, deep impact, armageddon, end of days, the day after tomorrow, the road warrior (trilogy) independence day,,, etc.. is something really going to happen or are we all being manipulated into being scared by hollywood and others?? ok i have to go now because i am rambling

[TULAver]

No need to rationalize your behaviour WP, people usually only think of "hoarding" stuff in a paranoiac fashion, but most all of that stuff comes in handy at SOME point in more mundane situations. Say the **** doesn't rally hit the fan, but some accident ruptures a major water main in your area. Your water purification equipment can pretty much pay for itself in just one situation like that.

Sorry BR, I got mixed up, it was .260 Rem and .243 that I saw the DSA Hunter models in. .270 was just wishful thinking I guess. .243 is interesting though, I'd recommend it wholeheartedly as an all-purpose ammo, but it's nowhere near as easy to find as the others. No experience with .260, can't comment on it.

[BattleRifleG3]

260 Rem is ballistically comparable to 6.5mm Swede, but a small notch ahead. Potentially even more accurate. I'd love to see an AR-10 in it.

[willypete]

i know i dont need to justify myself TULAver, i have two main problems. first i am a packrat and therefore love buying and collecting stuff. second i used to live on long island a few years ago (have since wised up) and i saw how people react to mass hysteria, panic, natural disasters, mob mentality. Long island is an island and there are only so many ways off of it. i have seen peoples reaction to the stresses that coincided with that.

[willypete]

by the way no disrespect intented i was just replying to you. thanks for listening....

[MAX7.62]

I always thought it was kinda screwy - I built a metric pattern rifle with a DSA bull front end with full float front grip etc. I figured that it would be the pinnacle single hole puncher. I made real sure to "season" the barrel good - fire 3 and clean - for 20 rounds. It grouped really nice - 1/2 MOA or so at 100. BUT, out of the L1A1's that I have, there is this one particular rifle that obviously has a really good pipe because it shoots pretty much the same group if not maybe a little better than the fat barrel. And you gotta remember, the L1A1 has a pretty skinny pipe!
Now, after all that, I recently (OK, about 5 months ago) got the "holy grail" for most FAL nuts, an Izzy heavy barrel. I was lucky to find this one, about a 99% rifle that appeared to be almost unfired. The Izzy turns out to be the single hole puncher out of the bunch. I forgot to point out that I load Sierra Match Kings and do any comparing between sticks with those. I figure it's a better gauge that doing a compare with surplus ammo, even the Portugese stuff which seems to be really good.