FN49 problem. 'Lil help??

[CDN_SAFN]

Hi guys!

I'm hoping that I can get a bit of help with a problem I'm having with my 8MM SAFN-49. Regardless of the ammo or gas port setting, it won't fully cycle enough to eject the case, and the upper front hand guard gets sent flying. If I set the gas port block to "off" and fire it manually cycled, it ejects just fine, but still I have the hand guard issue. When I put it all back together, and re-fit everything, the hadguard is tight, no play. I've even soaked the wood in oil to get it to swell even more so it fits tighter. I've disassembled it and compared it to my 30-06 SAFN-49, and there are no missing pieces, etc. and wear/condition is reasonably similar. Neither have the peices to hold the bolt open on firing the last shot, but I understand this to be fairly common, and not critical to the functioning of the rifle. The 30-06 cycles just fine, by the way.

So... any ideas?? Anyone?? I know I'm the seedling-green Newbie here, but I did try to poke around the group's past postings for some leads first.

[wunhunglo]

OK so it looks like a gas problem then. The disturbing thing is the bit about the upper front handguard going flying. Is it leaking gas at the gas port??? Have you tried taking the handguards off & spraying some light oil around the gas port area then firing it, with the guards off, preferably with someone watching to see if the oil gets blown all over the place.
I assume (Ass-U-Me) that you have thoroughly stripped it, cleaned & inspected the gas piston (& it's spring), the gas plug, gas sleeve (have you adjusted this?) and checked that the push rod (tappet) is not bent and binding when operating. Also that the breech block is not binding anywhere and is properly lubed. Having said all that, if you've done the basic routine cleaning I would concentrate on the gas sleeve adjustment first before delving too deep.

[CDN_SAFN]

Thanks for the reply wunhunglo,

Yes, the handguard taking a short vacation is disturbing. At the bench, it seems to make it about 2" off the top of the rifle, then just land on the bench. This is with the rifle firmly tied down to an adjustable rifle rest. It does this even with the gas sleeve completely shut off. I'll see if I can put some white cloth hockey tape along the insiade of the hand guards to see if it is being marked, and where.

As to your assumptions, I have stripped (and cleaned) both the 30-06, and the 8mm in order to compare each piece side by side. Aside from the barrel of the 8mm is in moderately better condition, the parts SEEM in comparable condition. When operating the rifle with the gas plug closed, it feels very smooth and similarly firm to the 30-06. I'm not sure how else to check for binding etc. aside from that? I will gladly go through the cleaning process again though. I am completely open to any suggestions/guidance on how to further check for issues/smoothness/signs if binding/etc. beyond a side-by-side comparison. I am using Hoppe's No.9 gun oil for lubricant. I have no problem at all changing if this is not the ideal oil.

Just as a side note, I bought the rifle from the ONLY local gunsmith who had a very negative bias towards the gun because it was Egyptian. He didn't have any interest in taking a look at it when I called back to see if he would take a look. He made a comment about poor quality manufacture from the Egyptian armory. You now have an idea of the local gunsmith's familiarity with the SAFN. The best I could coax out of him was that I should buy a list of parts from Numrich (most of which are listed as out-of-stock) and start throwing parts at it until it works.

Much appreciated for your reply... I'd really like to get this one working.

[CDN_SAFN]

Thanks for the reply wunhunglo. Ya, no kiddin' the handguard taking a leave of absence is a little disconcerting. With the rifle strapped tight in a shooting rest on a bench, it seems to jump about 2"... maybe a little less... off the rifle. Sometimes bending the sheet metal at the front inside of the guard where it meets up with the rifle. When assembled, there is a little play side to side at the barrel band where the 2 upper pieces meet, but not much. The fore end of the upper is tight, and no play lenghwise. It does this even with the gas port completely closed. I'll try your suggestion, but maybe I'll line the inside of the stock pieces with white cloth hockey tape and try a shot or 2 first to see if/what/where it's being marked, then go to the oil if I still can't see anything definitive.

As for your assumptions, they are to the best of my knowledge and abilities correct. I have done a side-by-side strip and comparison between my 8mm and 30-06, and aside from the 8mm barrel seems to be in slightly better condition than the 30-06, the components all SEEM to be in comparable condition. I've adjusted the gas sleeve from all the way open (as it was set at the time of purchase) to completely closed. The bolt does semi-cycle, but not enough to fully eject, though I have managed to get a partial-eject jam fairly regularly with the gas port fully closed with most types of ammo. As for binding, when I cycle the action manually, it feels very smooth, and comparably firm to the 30-06. I don't have a spring scale to give a proper measure of tension though. Is there another method I should try? I'm fully open to suggestions/guidance. As for lube, I'm using Hoppe's No.9. Again, if there is a different oil that '49s like better, I'm glad to switch. I'll gladly strip and clean it again (no harm in that), just to be sure.

As a side note, I bought this off the very few gunsmiths in the area. He had little interest in the gun since it was "Egyptian" and of "poor quality", so I got it at a good price. That tells you also about his knowledge of SAFN's, and how closely he looked at it. When I gave him a call about the problems, he again was really not interested in taking a look, and told me to buy a whole list of parts from Numrich, most of which are no longer in stock. The "throw parts at it until it works" approach. So basically, I don't have a local resource to have the problem fixed/looked into (that I'm aware of anyhow).

In the mean time, I'm wide open to suggestions, tricks, etc. Also parts sources, if need be. I'd really like to get this one working. It's not a show piece, but would be a great shooter and once reliability issues are worked out, maybe even a bit of hunting.

Thanks again!

....sorry about the "double-tap".
I didn't think the first message made it through.

[wunhunglo]

With the gas sleeve fully forward/closed & gas plug open, it should be chucking those cases miles, so there is definitely a problem there. Have you tried swapping the gas piston from your .30-06? Do you have any way of checking the piston/cylinder clearances with both rifles for comparison?
Some thick grease in the piston ring grooves might make it work once or twice & that will tell you if the clearances are too great.
With it blowing off the front handguard I am wondering if the gas block was not properly fitted to the barrel. It should have been pressed on then soldered, maybe the solder has failed and allowing gas blow by??

Just reread your bit below, even with the gas shut off, it still blows the handguard off?? If that is the case I strongly suspect the barrel/gas block sealing.
If I set the gas port block to "off" and fire it manually cycled, it ejects just fine, but still I have the hand guard issue.

[CDN_SAFN]

You're right about throwing the cases... I usually open up the gas sleeve whenever I am trying new ammo, and slowly start to close it off 2 settings past where it starts to cycle properly. The bolt doesn't feel like it's slamming into the back of the receiver, and it cycles reliably. (well, the 30-06 does)

I don't have any micrometers, but I do have pattern-maker's calipers. I can take a sizing from the 30-06 and see how it transfers over, but this would be on the outside of the piston itself. I don't have any reliable way to check the internal clearances myself. I do have access to hydraulics/pneumatics parts. I'm pretty sure I can get tefflon coil-wipers that would go on like piston rings the right size for the gas piston to try a few shots. They look like tiny sections of a slinky spring, I'd just have to find one with a suitable inside/outside diameter of the tefflon itself. They self-tension and gap seal, though at very low friction and wall pressure so it would work pretty well I think.

You may be onto something with the gas block... I'll try and see if I can't find any visual clues at first, then maybe a thin coat of plumbers paste on all the seams to show any blow-throughs after 1 shot. I never even considered that...

If it does prove to be the gas block, then it's really too bad that Numrich no longer has any new 8mm barrels. That would probably be the easiest route and give me an even better shooter in the end. Too bad there doesn't seem to be any more "one stop shopping" for parts. I'll take another close look over the weekend, but doubt I'll get any range time in for a few weeks. I will go over everything again with a good cleaning, and try to do a closer comparison with the 30-06.

Thanks for the gas block lead... makes good sense.

Dumb question maybe, but can pics be posted? If not, can links? I'd like to post pics of whatever turns out to be the deficiency and how it was determined in case someone else could benefit. And, if there was a solution that someone may be able to attempt themselves, or decide to take to a professional.

Oh, one last question... where can I find some more info/manuals etc. on the 49? I've already printed the parts diagram from Numrich, and there are fairly decent articles on it at surplusrifle.com I'm likely going to order their 2 CD's anyhow, since I have other C&R rifles and pistols that they have info on, but I've learned that you can always learn more if you keep looking. I can't own a FAL here in Canada, or gain a license to, but have a real respect for both the FAL (and variants) and the 49. I own 2 Garands and a Johnson and in my own opinion/experience with my own rifles, I prefer the 49 and feel it has some distinct advantages and overall superior build quality over both of the other rifles. If I could find any fault, it would be that the magazine is close to the point of balance, and it's depth (or length if you prefer) makes one handed carry less balanced. Aside from that, I don't find either the Garand or the Johnson as good a rifle overall. Then again, I've never had to use any of them in combat, so maybe my 2 cents worth is not at all relevant to the design of any of them.

[wunhunglo]

Fingers crossed for you; you can post pictures no problem if you can identify the problem.
As for barrel replacement, I do know that it is a simple job on the 49, so maybe one of the barrel manufacturers could do a replacement fairly reasonably if you can find a barrel; All you need is a strong vise, a big wrench (& hammer sometimes) easy off, easy on; otherwise I wouldn't expect a rifled blank to cost too much and it's a fairly easy profiling job, so even going down this route shouldn't be too expensive.

Good luck

[wunhunglo]

I see that Century arms are advertising new 8mm barrels for the SAFN 49!

[CDN_SAFN]

I am turning up the odd barrel assembly, which is good to know. I'll pick one up, just for a spare. Thanks for the lead.

Just as an update: I haven't made any range time yet, but did do a very thorough strip/clean and inspection of both the 8mm and the 30-06. I don't have a micrometer, but using pattern maker's calipers to check & compare outside diameters, things seem to be so close in similarity that I can't say there is enough of a difference between the 2 rifle's gas cycling components to cause such a difference. I couldn't check the inside of the gas cylinders though. I also couldn't see any failure points, but that may not show until I can fire it with the white tape around the inside of the stock, and some marking oil.