I couldn't hold out

[just_a_car]

So, I'd been wanting a .308/7.62 NATO firearm for a while, and since my first and only firearm was/is a Mosin Nagant 91/30, which I love very much, I was going to have to search out a similarly good-deal. I found the CETME.

I did as much research as I could and sat my butt on Gunbroker.com, watching for a sweet enough deal to make me bite. I finally saw one that made me drool with the look of it... I sat drooling for a good week before finally breaking this morning and buying it.

Here's the auction: GunBroker.com Item 60490039 Spanish Cetme .308 Rifle
I used Buy It Now to get the extra 350 rounds of 150gr Wolf FMJ and 20 rounds of AP.

I can't wait to get to my local FFL and have my hands on that beautiful piece of machinery.

[Pred]

First, I wouldn't use the Wolf ammo in the gun. I would try to find some South African .308 surplus ammo instead.

[just_a_car]

Originally Posted by Pred

First, I wouldn't use the Wolf ammo in the gun. I would try to find some South African .308 surplus ammo instead.

What are your reasons for the suggestion Pred? I haven't seen much in the way of bad press for the round. Maybe you could enlighten me with some personal experience or related to you from a credible source? Thanks.

[BattleRifleG3]

The recoil operated mechanism of the CETME isn't served well by Steel cased ammo. Gas operated arms are usually ok with it. The best gun to fire it in would be a Saiga-308. Steel cased ammo is best used in eastern bloc guns.

[Pred]

As BRG3 said, its not really the round thats bad, its the combination of the round in that weapon. First off, Wolf is dirty, REALLY dirty. My G3 will chew up Wolf .308, and at times has left metal chips where they shouldn't be. The South African ammo is much better, not to mention much cleaner. You can buy a 140 rounds of it for around $30, not bad for .308.

[just_a_car]

Originally Posted by Pred

As BRG3 said, its not really the round thats bad, its the combination of the round in that weapon. First off, Wolf is dirty, REALLY dirty. My G3 will chew up Wolf .308, and at times has left metal chips where they shouldn't be. The South African ammo is much better, not to mention much cleaner. You can buy a 140 rounds of it for around $30, not bad for .308.

If you could point me to a link where you can find it for that, I'd be much appreciated. I can't seem to find any. From what I understand from reading other forums, it seems to dry up around this time of year. What?... fighting gets more intense in the "summer" in South Africa?!

So, yeah, if you could point me in the right direction either here or in a PM if you don't want to give up a good source to everyone. *shrug*

Best I've found so far that isn't surplus is Winchester 7.62 NATO on ATG at $49.95 for 100, plus $8.95 shipping. Now, if I buy more, it's cheaper, but I want a small sample first before I buy 800 like the Czech stuff for my Mosin.

I can see why steel cases would be bad, since the sites I've seen with pics of spent casings show "normal" cases with a huge dent in the side and the mouth badly dented. I definitely would rather have the softer brass than steel if it's supposed to do that to the case.

Also, what's your guy's feelings on the rifle in general?

[Big Dog]

An excellent rifle, as long as the Century Assembler Monkey had his head on straight. My CETME has never faltered, except when using bad ammo and a certain dented 30-round mag. Runs like a Timex!
I haven't tried steel-cased ammo, and won't. Same with my Bushmaster - it'll never taste steel.
I save that stuff for the AK and SKS.
Just keep the CETME clean and lubed, it will serve you well. Very first thing - you gotta clean it about three times to get all the metal shavings and 'monkeycrap' out of it!

[Pred]

Check out either AIM or SOG, don't remember which has it. Nevermind LOL, seems both places are out. Hopefully our next gunshow will have some and I can pick up about 500 rounds.

[just_a_car]

Originally Posted by Pred

Check out either AIM or SOG, don't remember which has it. Nevermind LOL, seems both places are out. Hopefully our next gunshow will have some and I can pick up about 500 rounds.

Pred, I just went to our local gunshow and every ammo seller there was telling me about how they aren't getting any more surplus 7.62 NATO, due to the NATO Small-Arms Non-Proliferation Treaty that South Africa signed. I was lucky enough to come across a guy that gave me a contact to buy SA battle packs for $40, but they're going for $50, $60, even $70 on Gunbroker. I expect that they'll probably go higher, seeing as how that treaty is stopping exporting of surplus ammunition from the nations that signed it. Grrr, Stupid NATO.

By the way, I'm going to take the time to find out what nations all signed the treaty and see if I can't find a link to the wording of the treaty itself.

Edit: Okay, I got some info. First off, they don't have a treaty, yet. They've signed a 'feasibility study' to look at the possibility of a treaty.

Text of the session: http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/ATT%20resolution.pdf (WARNING: Lots of buzz-words and political-speek! Not to mention dripping with anti-gun-ness.)
The above was found at: Arms Trade TreatyÂ*Foreign & Commonwealth Office
Good Article on the situation: United Nations to Consider an Arms Trade Treaty – U.S. Opposes
Another Article: Big powers split on proposed arms trade treaty
THIS is what appears to have prompted the feasibility study: Oxfam Press release: Bullets reach DRC rebels in spite of UN arms embargo - 16 October 2006

So, it appears that 'technically' we shouldn't be seeing any issues with import/export of arms until at least 2008 when the "experts" mentioned in the first link under point 2 start their study. Even then, that's just when they start the feasibility study. They don't have a Arms Trade Treaty to vote on until that's done. I'm just proud that the only nation of the big UN ones to vote against it was the U.S. (The others being Iran and Venezuala, funny, huh?). Russia and China were wavery, but finally abstained and the Brits and Auzzies are supporting it. Heck the Auzzies helped sponsor the bill. There goes good AU surplus.

[Pred]

I'm gonna have to look back into Wolf ammo. I've been reading something about how they've redone the casing, or something like that.

[just_a_car]

Originally Posted by Pred

I'm gonna have to look back into Wolf ammo. I've been reading something about how they've redone the casing, or something like that.

One of the ammo sellers at the gunshow was saying that the Wolf steel was the same hardness as brass. Now that is Really hard to believe, but it's possible.

Now, you may be referring to going to a dull-gray polymer coating from the green lacquer coating. You can see the difference here in the first picture: The Box O' Truth - Educational Zone #18 - Shooting Wolf steel-cased Ammo in an AR15
Also, the above test shows why I don't really care how close to the hardness of brass the Wolf ammo is; it's not close enough.

Have I mentioned I love this site?

[TULAver]

That particular study would apply 10fold to the CETME/G3 series of rifles due to the fluted chamber too, which gunks up like crazy even with surplus ammo. Add somewhat dirty burning Wolf ammo and the trademark lacquer coating on the cases and you got a recipe for a mess. While there may be no evidence supporting the idea of lacquer gumming up AR chambers, AR chambers aren't fluted - from examining spent Wolf casings, it seems those flutes scrape quite a bit of that coating off.

Which brings us to another point that should be considered - expansion. While Rockwell hardness can be matched between brass and steel, the level of malleability will always be different - i.e. it takes different forces/temperatures to expand brass and steel cases to the same size, regardless of wether there is any difference in the hardness of the two. Ductility, malleability, surface yield strength, etc, will all vary independantly of rockwell hardness between two different alloys.

If it weren't for those facts, there would be no reason to use brass cases at all - we'd be able to reload steel. Funny story - A year or so ago, a friend of mine stuck a spent Wolf casing into the chamber of my SKS while I wasn't watching, just curious about the whole rifle, and let the bolt slam home - it took 45 minutes to figure out how to get the whole thing unstuck. We finally stuck the but of the rifle to the ground and held everything steady while one person stepped down on the charging handle. Worked like a charm. I'm hesitant to experiment, but I do not think a spent brass would yield the same predicament. While steel casings may not expand to the same extent that brass does, as evidenced by the carbon fouling seen on those .223 rounds, it also does not shrink back as much as brass as it cools. That's not really very relevant to the blowback operated rifle, but the gunking of that chamber is. I've heard they're a pain to clean unless you stay on top of it constantly, and any steps you can take to make it less of a hassle would probably be welcome.

[just_a_car]

Okay, so, I was kinda dumb... As soon as I got the rifle a week ago, I went to the local gunsmith, had him give it a quick once over and an "OK to fire" and went straight to the range with a South African battlepack. No cleaning.
I should have expected the results, but still was disappointed at the end of the day. I shot 40 rounds that day:
70% FTE (with many coming back, not ejecting, then getting jammed as the bolt went forward)
3 FTF's (two were reinserted in the magazine and fired, the third jammed against the bolt and dented the case when reinserted, so went into the live round bin)
Of the 30% that actually ejected, I think only 4-5 chambered the next round, the rest jammed the bolt against the round in the magazine and failed to chamber.
So, needless to say, I was kicking myself for not taking the advice of so many articles I'd read about needing to clean, rack 300 times, and clean again.
Well, I've cleaned it twice and racked it 300+ times now and have to do the final cleaning prior to taking it back to the range. I'm hoping that this will fix my stupid mistake, as the first two cleanings were (in order) with Break-Free and Carb/Fuel-injector Cleaner and both came out rather black and gunky. I plan on doing the final clean with "no residue" electro-motive cleaner, as the Carb cleaner left a light powdery residue.
Also, that CETME bolt is really easy to disassemble and clean, once you know how to get the bolt face turned (I used my M91/30 adjustment tool as a lever, fit perfectly in the groove) and that bolt is less complicated than the Mosin Nagant bolt!
And, is it just me, or does South African surplus smell "salty" when fired?
Pic from the auction, some of my own to come soon:

[TULAver]

If you can find it, I highly recommend Ballistol as a cleaner/protectant. It's non toxic, and basic in nature. You can fill a bin or tub or what have you up with warm water, mix in the appropriate amount of ballistol, and just drop your gun in to soak, without any of the regular fears that come along with mixing water + steel. Wood, metal, leather, anything I've found so far is safe to use with ballistol. I like to fill up the tub with enough water, and just dump my guns and knives and whatever else I need cleaned in all at once, let them soak for a couple of hours(for good measure) take em out, empty them, give them a good scrubbing out, and just let em dry. Once the ballistol dries it leaves a microscopic, hygrophobic residue on the surfaces which effectively inhibits rust.

It may not be the best gun cleaner out there, I haven't tried a whole bunch of products, but it gets stuff out that Outers and break-free products never got out of my guns. And I feel a lot better about using it since it's non toxic.

[just_a_car]

I did the cleaning today with the electro-motive cleaner and maaaaan, did it need it! There was quite a bit of metal shavings in there from racking it the 300+ times and I could definitely see new wear grooves on the receiver. I'm sure it will end up needing more cleaning to get more of that stuff out once it works-in, but at least this should allow it to function properly.

Tomorrow (today, since it is almost 5am here, but I'm about to go to bed) I'm going to take it to the range and run some more SA mil-surp through it. Here's to hoping for 100% success!

Range report to follow.

[TULAver]

I always heard that the HK blowback operated rifles had a certain break in period from gun to gun, like they start out pretty stiff and they loosen up and settle in with use.

Picke up my Saiga 308 from the dealer today, just in time to hide it from myself for christmas

[just_a_car]

Okay, so after taking it back to the range, I had much less problems with it. I actually got through one of the six ten-round mags (half-filled 20rd G3 or CETME mags) without any failure to extract or feed. Unfortunately, I did still have that issue and had to put three rounds in the live round bin, due to the round jamming in between the bolt head and the feed ramp, thus denting two sides of the case and sometimes scraping some of the brass back. I figure, less brass = less ability to deal with the pressure and I like having all of my fingers.

So, on the issue of getting it worked-in, I still have work to do. I'm thinking that there might be some binding of the spring or possibly some areas where the bolt is catching that it shouldn't as it 'catches' in a couple places while working the cocking handle and is 'sometimes' rather difficult for me to pull back and I'm not a weak guy.

Now, for the sighting issues that I discovered once I was able to actually concentrate on them. The first 4 mags were weird and I started learning how the sights were aiming and on the fifth mag, had one flier and a string of all-touching 8 holes (one was a jam that went into the live round bin) that is about 2.5-3 inches long. I was impressed, though it isn't nearly as good as with my Mosin Nagant 91/30 and was only 50 feet. What I was really not impressed by was that I had to aim about 4-5 inches low and that was with the point of the front sight at the very bottom of the "V" in the 100 meter notch. I also had to aim a little bit right... that could just be my firing technique, but I'm pretty sure the vertical aiming isn't, as I can put 5 rounds of 7.62x54R out of my 91/30 in a 1.5 inch circle at 75 feet and it has much more kick.

I've got the targets from when I took it to the range. I'll get pics of those and the rifle now that I have a new camera from my birthday on the 21st. Yay! No ammo for Xmas, like I asked for, though. :-(

[BFRANKlin]

The most important thing about the CETME (and probably the G3s) is cleanliness!!! CETMEs MUST be absolutely cleaned, ESPECIALLY THE CHAMBER!!! The chamber is fluted (grooved) to allow gasses to escape to extract the round. You must NOT use grease or even very heavy oil to lube the CETME. Use oil very sparingly on the bolt carrier and lightly oil the rollers. That is all the factory recommends and that is the only way they will work right. They shoot very well and I have had no problems with mine (after I learned the hard way about cleaning them). The only change I want in mine is a wooden stock set. Plastic is for toys. You can keep your ARs boys, I want a real rifle. That being said, there is NOTHING better than the M1 Garand, nothing! Even M 14s are inferior to the Garand. But by all means, get a CETME. Their extraction method reduces recoil, too. Don't kick near as hard as an M 14. Plus, they are accurate, reliable, and easy to work on once you get the hang of it. The alloy magazines work OK, and cheap. But the steel mags are worth the extra buck or two.

[TULAver]

At 50 feet, of course your shots are going to be high - remember, 7.62NATO is a round with a lot of range, it's not a pistol, and if you're using 100m sights at that distance... see where the 100m sights shoot at or around 100m, I bet you won't have to aim low.

Also, on the jamming problem - this may be completely off base, but I took my P38 to the range yesterday to fire along with my new Saiga 308, and decided to take my spare magazine I haven't used for it yet(the p38). Got the same problems you're describing - nose of the bullet was impacting just below the feed ramp. When I got home and inspected everything, it was the right feed lip on the magazine, looks like it had been dropped. If the bullet isn't angled up enough as the bolt rams it forward, that's what happens. May want to check your mags.

[just_a_car]

Tula, thanks for the advice. It's weird, though, on my 91/30, I can aim 'straight-up' and hit darn near perfect at 25 yards. Though, I did a little checking on my favorite Mosin reference site (7.62x54r.net) and found that the rounds out of that are still near-level at that range, but then go up and down again parabolically. I found that a little odd, but the data is pretty good at that site (specifically the Ammo Evals, 2/3 down the page).

Now, for the mags. *deep sigh* You're right. Darn near every G3 mag I have is dented somewhere, if it's not the lip, it's the body. I have a few steel mags, though: 2-20's (CETME), 2-30's (HK91), and 1-5 (CETME). I just took a close look and ALL of my mags, G3, HK91, or CETME, were all filthy and grimey, especially with this thick grease in crevices. I just finished taking a 20 rnd steel mag apart and cleaning it with mineral spirits, then gave the edges of the follower (not the top, just where it rubs) a very light wipe with WD40. I then took a look at the lips of the steel mag and one of the two lips is lower than the other, most likely to accomodate the staggered configuration of the magazine, but the tops of the lips looked either worn or had been hit, so I "loved" the lower lip up a bit to make sure that rounds from that side of the magazine feed properly. That mag is all clean and put back together and I'll be using it only the next time I try some rounds at the range. We'll see if that's the feed issue.

Now, with the extractor/tion issue, I was (again) hand-cycling the bolt to keep working it in and noticed that it was decently stiff until the back of the bolt just crossed the little hole on the top of the receiver, just in front of the rear sight, then it became Very stiff. I'm wondering if there isn't some slag or some other Monkey-crud in there that I need to file down, as I know it's clean. More reports to follow... and I swear, I'll get to those pictures... heh, I hope. Sorry.