pistol grip ?? - Page 2

gunssb · 02-15-2005, 02:29 PM

the problem with all the mods is that it drives the price up a lot (and I'm not a fan of a pump action on an AK) - so they're out of reach of a younger person on a limited budget who wants a centerfire semi-auto. I'm leaning towards the SU-16 - sure it's nowhere in the accuracy near a "serious" centerfire but that's all we can have here without custom mods (and I won't be moving out of cali for a while at least) - 2inch with a red-dot seems achievable from what I've read.

Everyone seems to say accuracy is better than the mini-14 out of the box (and I'll be !!!!ed if I buy a ruger anyway). Plus it's 100% US made & kel-tec is pro 2nd :right:

BattleRifleG3 · 02-15-2005, 02:39 PM

Indeed, I'm all for you getting one if it suits your needs. I guess I take for granted being able to get parts here that you probably couldn't get in your state. One thing I'd say though is that if 2" groups is your goal, not too few Yugoslavian SKSs can do that and with cheaper ammo. The price difference between that an a Kel Tec could buy plenty of premium X39 ammo and the best solid receiver scope mount (smithed or otherwise.)

gunssb · 02-15-2005, 02:44 PM

need to think about it some more...that's why I love this board - otherwise I'd buy everything that catches my fancy and be out on the street

BattleRifleG3 · 02-15-2005, 02:47 PM

Hmm, I think that goes both ways. I know I've become insanely infatuated with a gun or two simply because of this and other boards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunssb

...I'd buy everything that catches my fancy and be out on the street

Hmm, isn't that where all the cool guns are? According to the antis it is...

Gyrene · 03-10-2005, 12:50 AM

gunssb - If that SU-16 is the Kel-Tec that I have seen at our range, they shoot better than 2 inch groups. I have seen them shoot 1 to 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards with the iron sights, about the same as the AR-15's, and FAB-10's. They will outshoot a Mini-14 all day long, and then some!

`

gunssb · 03-10-2005, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyrene

gunssb - If that SU-16 is the Kel-Tec that I have seen at our range, they shoot better than 2 inch groups. I have seen them shoot 1 to 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards with the iron sights, about the same as the AR-15's, and FAB-10's. They will outshoot a Mini-14 all day long, and then some!
`

thanks Gyrene. I decided to pass on the SU-16 - I've figured out I'm not a plastic person. As far as semi-autos go, I recently acquired an excellent Russian SKS - haven't shot it yet. Hopefully won't let me down. I then plan to get a M1 garand and perhaps a M1A someday. I might decide to build a cali-legal AR15 this fall though from parts just for the heck of it

BattleRifleG3 · 03-10-2005, 01:54 AM

It hurts to put down a semi-auto like this, but I must say that given the difficulty of loading the break open fixed mag AR, any tactical strength the AR had would be gone. A bolt action 223 would be more accurate, less expensive, more reliable, and equally fast to fire. A pump action like Remington is offering to LE would be perfect for your uses.

Another option would be to build a Saiga style AK from parts. Though California has banned each AK variant by name, you can stamp any made up name you want on a homemade receiver and the courts have held that the law as written doesn't ban the AK design technologically. You'd need to basically build your own Saiga using standard AK (and Saiga take off) parts. You could then make it with NO evil features except a detachable mag, and you'd have a gun more accurate than a Mini. If you really wanted to get serious about design, you could take an existing heavy barrel and really show up the Mini-14.

I'm just spouting what I would do, I just see the uses of a fixed mag AR-15 as very limited. Only reason I could see for using a fixed mag AR over another 223 semi would be for service rifle competition.

I certainly wouldn't want to discourage you from AR building. It's just that the fixed mag AR is such a handicap (the AR was never meant to be fixed, as opposed to the Mini, which is a couple generations removed from the fixed mag M1 Garand.) Do what you like, just be aware of your options and the limitations of each choice. Listening to me is purely optional.

BattleRifleG3 · 03-10-2005, 02:12 AM

Unless you have a specific use for an AR-15, I'd suggest one of these fellas:
Savage 11F:

Weatherby Vanguard:

Remington Model 7 Youth Synthetic (small gun with all the big gun features):

Or if we get lucky and enough of these get released to the public-
The Remington 7615 Pump rifle:

gunssb · 03-10-2005, 08:28 AM

hmm, the remington pump is sweet. Actually, I was merely thinking about the AR - the idea was to assemble something from parts. I'm not too much into gunsmithing (yet) and don't have the place or the time for it - so not sure if I want to handle building a homemade receiver or facing legal action - I'd just move to another state (maybe that will happen after I finish grad school, who knows). It's not that I need a fixed mag semi really - the SKS & the garand would be quite enough. Just the thought of building something from components (without getting too deep into smithing) seems cool - like building your first PC. But you're right, I should probably wait & see what might come up in the future (i.e. if I do end up in a state where it would be legal to build any dang thing with a detachable magazine). If I wanted a rifle for defense, I'd prefer a lever action with hydrashocks (like I currently have). Maybe I can still build that AR & sell it to make some $$ on the side (although I don't know the legality of that) - I know people will pay any ridiculous amount here for those even if they were single shots! Keep the opinions coming.

BattleRifleG3 · 03-10-2005, 10:20 AM

Building and selling for profit is restricted to dealers.

gunssb · 03-10-2005, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BattleRifleG3

Building and selling for profit is restricted to dealers.

hmm I thought so

02-15-2005, 02:39 PM	#22
BattleRifleG3 Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Western PA Posts: 11,401 Images: 13	Indeed, I'm all for you getting one if it suits your needs. I guess I take for granted being able to get parts here that you probably couldn't get in your state. One thing I'd say though is that if 2" groups is your goal, not too few Yugoslavian SKSs can do that and with cheaper ammo. The price difference between that an a Kel Tec could buy plenty of premium X39 ammo and the best solid receiver scope mount (smithed or otherwise.) __________________ Trust is earned, not... GIVEN away. - Worf

03-10-2005, 01:54 AM	#27
BattleRifleG3 Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Western PA Posts: 11,401 Images: 13	It hurts to put down a semi-auto like this, but I must say that given the difficulty of loading the break open fixed mag AR, any tactical strength the AR had would be gone. A bolt action 223 would be more accurate, less expensive, more reliable, and equally fast to fire. A pump action like Remington is offering to LE would be perfect for your uses. Another option would be to build a Saiga style AK from parts. Though California has banned each AK variant by name, you can stamp any made up name you want on a homemade receiver and the courts have held that the law as written doesn't ban the AK design technologically. You'd need to basically build your own Saiga using standard AK (and Saiga take off) parts. You could then make it with NO evil features except a detachable mag, and you'd have a gun more accurate than a Mini. If you really wanted to get serious about design, you could take an existing heavy barrel and really show up the Mini-14. I'm just spouting what I would do, I just see the uses of a fixed mag AR-15 as very limited. Only reason I could see for using a fixed mag AR over another 223 semi would be for service rifle competition. I certainly wouldn't want to discourage you from AR building. It's just that the fixed mag AR is such a handicap (the AR was never meant to be fixed, as opposed to the Mini, which is a couple generations removed from the fixed mag M1 Garand.) Do what you like, just be aware of your options and the limitations of each choice. Listening to me is purely optional. __________________ Trust is earned, not... GIVEN away. - Worf

03-10-2005, 02:12 AM	#28
BattleRifleG3 Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Western PA Posts: 11,401 Images: 13	Unless you have a specific use for an AR-15, I'd suggest one of these fellas: Savage 11F: Weatherby Vanguard: Remington Model 7 Youth Synthetic (small gun with all the big gun features): Or if we get lucky and enough of these get released to the public- The Remington 7615 Pump rifle: __________________ Trust is earned, not... GIVEN away. - Worf Last edited by BattleRifleG3; 03-10-2005 at 02:17 AM.

03-10-2005, 10:20 AM	#30
BattleRifleG3 Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Western PA Posts: 11,401 Images: 13	Building and selling for profit is restricted to dealers. __________________ Trust is earned, not... GIVEN away. - Worf

02-15-2005, 02:29 PM	#21
gunssb Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: socal Posts: 1,833	the problem with all the mods is that it drives the price up a lot (and I'm not a fan of a pump action on an AK) - so they're out of reach of a younger person on a limited budget who wants a centerfire semi-auto. I'm leaning towards the SU-16 - sure it's nowhere in the accuracy near a "serious" centerfire but that's all we can have here without custom mods (and I won't be moving out of cali for a while at least) - 2inch with a red-dot seems achievable from what I've read. Everyone seems to say accuracy is better than the mini-14 out of the box (and I'll be !!!!ed if I buy a ruger anyway). Plus it's 100% US made & kel-tec is pro 2nd :right:

02-15-2005, 02:44 PM	#23
gunssb Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: socal Posts: 1,833	need to think about it some more...that's why I love this board - otherwise I'd buy everything that catches my fancy and be out on the street

03-10-2005, 12:50 AM	#25
Gyrene Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CA Posts: 886	gunssb - If that SU-16 is the Kel-Tec that I have seen at our range, they shoot better than 2 inch groups. I have seen them shoot 1 to 1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards with the iron sights, about the same as the AR-15's, and FAB-10's. They will outshoot a Mini-14 all day long, and then some! `

03-10-2005, 08:28 AM	#29
gunssb Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: socal Posts: 1,833	hmm, the remington pump is sweet. Actually, I was merely thinking about the AR - the idea was to assemble something from parts. I'm not too much into gunsmithing (yet) and don't have the place or the time for it - so not sure if I want to handle building a homemade receiver or facing legal action - I'd just move to another state (maybe that will happen after I finish grad school, who knows). It's not that I need a fixed mag semi really - the SKS & the garand would be quite enough. Just the thought of building something from components (without getting too deep into smithing) seems cool - like building your first PC. But you're right, I should probably wait & see what might come up in the future (i.e. if I do end up in a state where it would be legal to build any dang thing with a detachable magazine). If I wanted a rifle for defense, I'd prefer a lever action with hydrashocks (like I currently have). Maybe I can still build that AR & sell it to make some $$ on the side (although I don't know the legality of that) - I know people will pay any ridiculous amount here for those even if they were single shots! Keep the opinions coming.