I should say here, that I do need a SMALL weapon for CCW, as I've had 4 surgeries on my back & neck, which cause some physical issues for me.
I'm not willing to go smaller than 9mm though. This Kel Tec is perfect for me weight & size-wise. Sufficient punch in a VERY small package.
1. Sufficient punch is not relevant if the gun can't be depended on to function reliably... caliber doesn't count until the rounds are put on target.
2. Regarding "physical issues".....There is a trade off in every handgun... smaller size, more recoil... shorter barrel = less weight = more recoil..... heavier gun, longer barrel = more weight = less recoil.
Quote:
Let any man, who can unequivocally "100% guarantee", that his arm of choice, won't EVER have a mal-function, of ANY sort, stand-up, and be counted.
Let me put it this way... I'll bet my life (and I do, daily, and have won those bets a couple of times) on any of my 1911's, ANY day. From what I read here, you can't say that about your Kel-Tec.
Perhaps there comes a time when bad apple needs to be removed from the bunch being considered for making the best pie.
Regards, sir
PS... Wikipedia's results on any subject, can be significantly skewed by input from users that may know nothing about the subject being searched.
I'm sorry, I neglected to answer the magazine question.... I clean mags ever year or so, unless I have reason to believe there may be a problem. Make sure the underneath edge closest to the brass case, doesn't have any burrs on it.
Let any man, who can unequivocally "100% guarantee", that his arm of choice, won't EVER have a mal-function, of ANY sort, stand-up, and be counted.
Ooo...Ooo...let me be gittin' up...aw chit you had to say ever and any.
I have an IAI AutoMag III, bought new 21 years ago and have put about 1K rounds through it...not one failure or malfunction during that 21 years time...yet.
But, I have to say, it ain't a concealable carry gun unless ya gotcha a BIG-Assed fanny pack; a shoulder holster works well but it makes ya walk crooked.
"Look, ma, that guys got one leg shorter than the other'
"No, dear, he's just carrying a big mean mudder in a shoulder rig"
Every other semi-auto I own has had a periodic malfunction...from Colt to Iver Johnson...one way or another...usually caused by ammunition though.
Hey, something you might try...swap out the magazine with a known good one...you do have more than one mag, don't ya? It's possible the lips are out of whack. I had a couple 1911 mags with slightly bent lips that really gave me a head-ache; until I tossed them into the Yuma River...solved my problem.
Well I have to say I'm quite curious as to what you base your opinion on? KT is made right here in the U.S., and personally, modern-day firearms made here by the #3 manufacturer carry a good bit of weight in my humble opinion...but that's "just me".
Your assertion is one (1) against literally several HUNDRED folks I've either communicated directly with or read from, who totally disagree with you so...
I'd love to own a Glock, and appreciate your recommendation here. However, I believe just about ANY Glock is going to be out of my short-term budget reach. It's been my experience, that with the four surgeries, so too has my income gone-down by about 4X's........
Based on reading several of your responses to those who have Replied to your Post, you sound more like someone in the mood to argue, in order to justify their decision, rather than someone wanting opinions based on experience.
With that said, I'll take the bait.
I based my "assertion" on having owned and shot hand guns, of almost every current brand on the market, for the last 30+ years, AND on having taught and coached hand gun shooters, both new and experienced, since 2000, AND personal observation and investigation of hand gun function.
I own Kel-Tec guns, and have shot them enough to be familiar with their manufacture and function.
Just because something is "made in the USA" does not confer the stamp of "Quality" anymore.
The difference between a gun that NEVER malfunctions, and one that is unreliable on a regular basis, is very broad. There is NO 100% guarantee of correct function of ANY mechanical device on this planet. However, there IS the statistical probability of successful function, based on past experience.
A gun that malfunctions once in 1,000 rounds fired is statistically a better bet than one that malfunctions a couple times every 100 rounds. That is just the way of probability.
If your life is only worth a couple hundred dollars insurance, and you are willing to gamble with never having to actually USE an unreliable gun to save your life or the life of a loved one, then, by all means, continue to make yourself "Right" in your mind, and carry that gun. It will not affect my life.
All we (fellow gun owners and users) can do is render an opinion, based on the information, or lack thereof, that you post for us to evaluate, combined with our knowledge and experience.
To use the invited opinions as a launching pad for arguing your self-justification, and refutation of stated opinions, is somewhat less than gracious.
The majority of G&G Members that regularly post on these forums, have a genuine concern for the well-being of their fellow gun enthusiasts, and their enjoyment of the shooting sports. They offer opinions based on their knowledge and experience, with the intent of attempting to share something helpful to those seeking information.
You are free to choose what you listen to and employ in your decision making process.
P.S. I have Glock 19 magazines that are over 12 years old, have over 5,000 rounds through them, still function perfectly, and have never been disassembled for "cleaning." I just wipe the burned powder residue off of the exposed surfaces after use.
Well...since my input on the brand of the gun isn't worth much I'll answer the question I suppose:
As far as taking my mags completely apart, I hardly ever do it unless they have been dropped in water or squished in the mud as sometimes happens on training days. My G17 has had about 6,000 rounds through it with no malfunctions of the weapon or mags. My Para mags require very little maintenance while my HK mags must be wiped down at least once a week to prevent rust (its a pain in the butt).
PS- This is all real world experience not my apparently uneducated and biased opinion I was slinging around carelessly earlier.
I personally clean my mags every 200-300 rounds (typically after 2 or three shooting sessions.) I like to keep them clean and I notice they get a little dirty after that many rounds. I personally like to keep my gun and mags very clean because I enjoy cleaning and admiring them. So I'll take my mags apart and clean them about 1 time for every 3 times I clean up my guns.
I don't believe it to be necessary to clean a magazine that often for it to function properly, but it can"t hurt the chances they'll continue to do so. So clean as often as you like. I'll suggest every 200-300 rounds.
If you have cleaned and lightly lubed your gun well ONCE (and the mags well ONCE) and it still does not function you have a problem with your gun and need to send it back to Kel-Tec to be fixed. I have shot many friends Kel-Tecs--some of which were extremely dirty--with few if any FTF`s. I have found them reliable and reasonably accurate.
Once magazines have been cleaned (and lubed or treated with something like Frog lube then dried) and put back together they can be fired and used with simply a wipe off for several thousand rounds without affecting reliability. If it makes you feel better to clean them more often -- OK-- but it is unnecessary unless the mag has been dropped in sand or mud or gotten a whole bunch of crud in there--mostly from something totally unrelated to shooting the gun.
The gun should function for several hundred if not several thousand rounds well without a cleaning/lubing--at least that is what all my friends kel-tec 9s have done. You are more likely to wear the gun out from cleaning than firing. I`ve treated most of my guns with Frog Lube and they get a simple wipe down or field-strip wipedown/bore snake then back together.
The Kel-Tec is not affected by any reasonable grip and the limp wrist thing is a myth. I`ve fired them with tight 2-hand, 1-hand strong and weak with varying degress of tension with no FTFs--no difference in function whatsoever. Most short barrel 9s function just fine from any reasonable grip.
You must have confidence in the reliabilty of your gun. Period. If it malfunctions after cleaning send it back to Kel-tec. If it doesn`t work flawlessly after they return it (be sure to ship it with the mags and detail how it is failing) send it back again with a letter you want a new gun, your money back, or them to guarantee the return 100 percent will work. If it comes back and works, great. If not, relegate the gun to a training/range gun, write Kel-tec about your experience and honestly your disappontment and that you are going to not recommend their product to everyone on the planet and get a working gun, and go out and buy one that works. The Kel-tecs I`ve shot in general have been extremely reliable. If they can`t fix it consider a new type of gun--revolvers (like the Charter Bulldog or Smith Centennial, or SP-101, ETC) are a player too.
BTW--don`t take this as a glowing endorsement of Kel-Tecs--I once had one of their convertable 9mm rifles blow up on me. Really neat concept for folding gun and folded down into neat compact package. Was shooting buffalo bore +P+ thru it and had parts blow out of receiver after loud bang and stinging hand--essentially destroyed much of receiver area around bolt and the expensive Glock mag that was in it. Case had blown out and not sure why--had fired the relatively hot ammo in the hi-point without issues. Think the bolt may have came back early leaving the case unsupported. I sent them email for repair but never heard back and the 300bux wasn`t worth the eventual fight I saw coming between the gun manufacturer and the ammo manufacturer. Use Buffalo Bore to this day and been very happy with their products--not sure exactly why the gun blew.
I`ve never experienced any problem firing any of their 9mm handguns even though others might have different opinions.
Good luck and cheers.
Based on reading several of your responses to those who have Replied to your Post, you sound more like someone in the mood to argue, in order to justify their decision, rather than someone wanting opinions based on experience.
With that said, I'll take the bait.
Au contraire, mon Frère...au contraire.
I "had" written a "nice" (no, really!) reply here...spent the better part of an hour (ok, I type a little slow) crafting it.
Via the marvels and wonders of all-mighty technology (and a SMALL, NEW PC, as well as pushing nearly 40-hours straight, on the clock now - it is . . . "gone". Vanished, and VANQUISHED, to the Vastness of all "Virtuality" . . . and cyper-space.
I AIN'T-ah gonna be RE-writtin' it.
I'll say this and I'll be done with (will rest) the thread:
You, sir, are "off" about the "argue" part (though Lord KNOWS I DO have my "MOODS"). We are likely on polar opposites of looking at this thAng, and as UN-busy as I (supposedly) am these days, I really do not have time to make the trip to your side of the planet on the thing (and I would, overall, as you made some CRUSHINGLY good points).
I am actually quite familiar with the Law of Large Numbers/Law of Averages (though thanks for your time just the same).
Another stat on that ... I don't know about you or anyone else here, but I have "never" been in a gun-fight - in 51 short years, and, frankly, as I am sure you are aware, the odds are long and large, that I (or anyone else reading this) "ever" will be (obviously active law-enforcers and military excepted).
I readily admit my "hand" gun experience is but a mere two (2) years (after all, it's not been much more than that since we heard that the "S" was about to "HTF" and that it is, in fact, "TEOTWAWKI"), and I could well have more to learn about (a LOT of things) than anyone else within range.
I'm a green-horn ROOKIE, to handguns, and I'm "okay" with that. A very different animal, they are, as opposed to my 12-gauge, and the rifles I have handled...very different indeed.
We ALL, have our Strengths...and we all, have our very own, Achilles.
At 51, I have exactly "40-years" of "long-arm" experience ... and have done quite well with them, from the first night at that turkey shoot (age 10-11) when on my 2nd time ever shooting a shotgun, I took home a 2nd-place prize.
I "WAS" 20-20 in one, and 20-15 in the other, and I handled, aimed, and fired rifles and shotguns "WELL" - and I still ain't bad - all things considered...
I have trophies of my own, and could well toot my OWN little horny a good bit mor-E . . . however; 1.) I'm exhausted at the moment, and 2.) It's REALLY not my style anyway.
Please don't get me wrong...please don't misunderstand, sir: "I "do" GREATLY appreciate ANY and ALL hints, clues, advice, suggestions, experience-sharing, etc., etc., etc - though of a POSITIVE Spirit, and nature - only.
On the other hand, opinion-wrenching and ratcheting, sledge-hammer preaching, negativity in ANY shape, form or fashion, and/or ANY snide condescension (and you, my good Ten Man, whether you are aware of it or not SIR, have a thinly-veiled way of coming-across in this manner), well, I'll be MORE THAN happy, to simply go-away, from YOUR "DOMAIN".
Never, (as in, "never-ever") will I be subjected, to the gruff-growl(s) of any "Wizard(s)", guru(s), or czar(s). As Toto ALWAYS comes-along, and pulls-back that "Curtain of Humility"...sooner, or later.
The defense rests.
Best Regards, and have a great night!
Glenn
PS ~ Geeez...my first note was REALLY WAS, MUCH sweeter.
Last edited by Ambidextrous; 11-01-2011 at 09:03 PM.
TXplt - Thank you - copy you loud and clear - Great post - and I most certainly will avail what I have heard/read to be KT's "excellent" customer service - SOON - if need be.
Things with this pistol went down during the elongated (lengthy, drawn-out) "finishing debacle" over the summer...I quite Honestly and simply got VERY "frustrated, impatient and sloppy", and was firing it directly out of the box back from the finisher (nickel-plate), and I really am simply trying to do things correctly, and properly with this (what I hope will end-up being) deep concealment weapon.
"I am NO expert" (not by a LOOOONG shot) with F/A's (ESPECIALLY handguns), but I am confident in my ability to deal effectively with Kel Tec ... WITH, perhaps, a little help from my Friends! ;- ]
Thanks again,
Glenn . . .
Last edited by Ambidextrous; 11-01-2011 at 09:29 PM.
quit with the crap. i'll ask this one more time in an attempt to assist you! Did the pistol function reliably before you had it plated????????? if it did, you need to have a chat with the plater, or gunsmith you sent it through. as of now, having had the pistol plated, kel-tec need not honor whatever warranty they offer. without seeing it, i would bet the plating has taken up too much of the tolerances between the frame and slide, and turned a functional pistol into a turd.
quit with the crap. i'll ask this one more time in an attempt to assist you! Did the pistol function reliably before you had it plated????????? if it did, you need to have a chat with the plater, or gunsmith you sent it through. as of now, having had the pistol plated, kel-tec need not honor whatever warranty they offer. without seeing it, i would bet the plating has taken up too much of the tolerances between the frame and slide, and turned a functional pistol into a turd.
Well you'd lose the bet then sir. The "GENTLEMAN" who PERFORMED the work is "internationally-known" ("renowned"?) - LITERALLY.
And at 80+ (82-83?) years of age, has been performing metal-plating services for nearly 70 YEARS (longer than either of us have been drawing breaths).
Of what "crap" do you speak? I started-out asking a few questions, took some shots (in a self-deprecating manner) at MY OWN pistol ("not" ANYONE else's favorite weapon or brand), and suddenly it seems MY favorite pistol (as it is my ONLY pistol) is a "turd", etc., etc.
You (sir), not at all unlike another mentioned herein, have a curt, and condescending way about yourself. This website is hailed as "The Friendliest Gun Forum on the Internet" (see banner, above). I suggest you rethink your delivery (perhaps that upon which you likely unleash on everyone in your little world there) - or take it elsewhere ... I don't need it, and I have been approached by others, who are also, drawing near their end with it.
I've ALWAYS been Respectful to you (and everyone else here), and I would challenge you to name an instance (ONE/1 instance) where/when that has NOT been. the case..?
I (usually) don't "fire-back" (pun INTENDED) upon an initial stepping on my toes. However, if someone wishes to repeatedly STOMP upon me, he best bring his lunch (and supper too). I WILL RETURN FIRE, at a CERTAIN juncture - and normally it is much greater fire/force. THIS, is THAT. It's simply how I was trained.
One of the PRIMARY, ROOT PROBLEMS ON THIS ENTIRE PLANET RIGHT NOW (and yes, VERY MUCH INCLUDING the good ol' US of A) IS A PRIMARY AND FUNDAMENTAL "LACK OF CIVILITY AND RESPECT".
We "MUST" GIVE it, to get it - or else . . .
I "do" appreciate and RESPECT your expertise (knowledge, experience, etc.) in THIS arena. However, you (and the other big boy here) are FAR FROM the only ones, who HAVE "IT".
Thank you, may God Bless you, and may God continue to Bless, the United States of America.
G. Ralston Conner
Monterey, VA
Last edited by Ambidextrous; 11-02-2011 at 08:37 AM.
Reason: 1. Grammar 2. added name
Weird I never had any problem with my pf9 nor did my buddy who recommended I buy one after shooting his. The only thing about it is that Tul and Brown Bear's hard primers causes light primer strikes. Clean magazines only when they get sandy or really muddy but never my pf9.
Weird I never had any problem with my pf9 nor did my buddy who recommended I buy one after shooting his. The only thing about it is that Tul and Brown Bear's hard primers causes light primer strikes. Clean magazines only when they get sandy or really muddy but never my pf9.
Thanks, sir, for your reply - I really do appreciate it (it's "Positive", or "neutral" at best/worst! ;- )
There "was" an issue ("problem"/whatever) with the arm, when it was going-through the plating process - and I exacerbated the problem with my haste, frustration, aggravation, impatience, etc., etc.
I took a problem and made it worse than it had to be.
I chalk it up to; 1. Inexperience with handguns ( I have never had any issues like this with a long gun), and 2., some personal (and "business"/MONEY) problems I was dealing with at the time.
I simply cannot afford much "testing" of it now that I think I have things pinned-down/hopefully resolved, and was just trying to learn here, how to better-handle a pistol in the future. That was all this thread was meant to be.
I can "read" about maintenance etc. all the live-long day...from complete strangers.
I was simply attempting to get some actual "personal" interaction to that end - from folks here that I'd like to say I'm coming to "know".
I hope to have (be able to afford) 50 rounds in a couple/few days, but it may be December before I can get-in significant "range" time, to better know/report.
If at that point there seems to be an issue, the pistol will be going-back to KT for some customer service.
IDK what shipping is on live ammo but if you find out I would happily donate some of my loads that shoot great out of my M&P 9mm I could give you about 100 or so. Just let me know if you are interested!
__________________
Diplomacy is saying "Take my wallet" while reaching for the M&P tucked in your belt.
Well you'd lose the bet then sir. The "GENTLEMAN" who PERFORMED the work is "internationally-known" ("renowned"?) - LITERALLY.
And at 80+ (82-83?) years of age, has been performing metal-plating services for nearly 70 YEARS (longer than either of us have been drawing breaths).
Of what "crap" do you speak? I started-out asking a few questions, took some shots (in a self-deprecating manner) at MY OWN pistol ("not" ANYONE else's favorite weapon or brand), and suddenly it seems MY favorite pistol (as it is my ONLY pistol) is a "turd", etc., etc.
You (sir), not at all unlike another mentioned herein, have a curt, and condescending way about yourself. This website is hailed as "The Friendliest Gun Forum on the Internet" (see banner, above). I suggest you rethink your delivery (perhaps that upon which you likely unleash on everyone in your little world there) - or take it elsewhere ... I don't need it, and I have been approached by others, who are also, drawing near their end with it.
I've ALWAYS been Respectful to you (and everyone else here), and I would challenge you to name an instance (ONE/1 instance) where/when that has NOT been. the case..?
I (usually) don't "fire-back" (pun INTENDED) upon an initial stepping on my toes. However, if someone wishes to repeatedly STOMP upon me, he best bring his lunch (and supper too). I WILL RETURN FIRE, at a CERTAIN juncture - and normally it is much greater fire/force. THIS, is THAT. It's simply how I was trained.
One of the PRIMARY, ROOT PROBLEMS ON THIS ENTIRE PLANET RIGHT NOW (and yes, VERY MUCH INCLUDING the good ol' US of A) IS A PRIMARY AND FUNDAMENTAL "LACK OF CIVILITY AND RESPECT".
We "MUST" GIVE it, to get it - or else . . .
I "do" appreciate and RESPECT your expertise (knowledge, experience, etc.) in THIS arena. However, you (and the other big boy here) are FAR FROM the only ones, who HAVE "IT".
Thank you, may God Bless you, and may God continue to Bless, the United States of America.
G. Ralston Conner
Monterey, VA
this crap paragraphs of worthless drivel that does not help us to solve your problem!!!
DID THE PISTOL FUNCTION RELIABLY BEFORE IT WAS PLATED??????? if it ran 100% before it was plated, guess where the problem is (dont really care who did it, as even the best turn out bad work occasionally).
as far as being curt, your right, I am! there is absolutely no point in writing a book to ask a single sentence question (lots of words used to ask a simple question do not make you look intelligent, they make you look like a flake). i personally dont give two big fat turds what brand pistol you own, i was merely trying to assist you with your troubles, but you wont asnwer my simple flippin queation, so we can not procede with further troubleshooting of the problem. i agree with the other person who stated that it just looks like your looking for an argument!
Lefty is just asking you to do some basic troubleshooting. Work backwards to when it stopped working, your most recent change is probably what broke it.
__________________ We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. -Aesop
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