Years ago we tested an AMT Automag II & a Grendel P-30 at the old Gulf Breeze Pistol Parlor Indoor Range (gone now)...
the Automag had issues...the Grendel didn't, so I ended up with a Grendel...then another...then another...
There's 5 P-30's on Gunbroker right now, if not more. Easy to find online
Problem with a "compact" auto or even revolver in 22 Mag is the cartridge is very inefficient in short barrels, it was designed around a 20" rifle barrel to get the great 1900+ fps it's capable of.
It's ballistics are just not that much better from a 3 or 4 inch barrel than some of the hyper-velocity .22 Lr's, and it costs a helluva lot more to shoot.
It has a long slow pressure curve that peaks late and that makes for a difficult design for an auto, even in a rifle. That's why Ruger gave up on the idea.
Too many drawbacks with no real benefits.
Out of the shorter bbl guns the .22 WMR can give you ballistics similar to a .22 LR out of a rifle and this is a definite gain. Also some loads have been custom tailored to a short bbl loading--Hornady CD and Speer Gold Dot which have promise for a .22 WMR snub or any of the excellent NAA mini-revolvers (which are a great gun to carry when you are in a place you can't carry a gun or as a backup).
The point of the case and pressure is very well taken and many of the earlier 22 WMRs had feeding problems due to the length and characterisitcs of the round--DON`T know how the PMR-30 is faring but it was a hi-cap and would have promise but is a larger frame. For my money the 8-shot taurus WMR REVOLVER is the best bet (941). Even better is the short barrel single-six.
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Zapp's right. The .22 Magnum was designed for more killing power at longer range for small game. It was to be used in bolt action or lever guns, not semi-autos...and never really meant for semi-auto pistols.
The revolver could, and was however, easily adapted to the longer cartridge as proven by several manufacturers. Ballistics gain? Probably not much from the short barrel but can still be considered formidable.
The real challenge was to design a semi-auto for the .22 Magnum and due to it's longer case made it difficult. AMT/IAI met the challenge with the AutoMag II but as with many new models was plagued by design issues; thus, as is the norm, the shooting community immediately labeled AMT/IAI guns as poor quality and essentually killed further developement causing the manufacturer to fail. Awarded a poor reputation, No support, No market, No sales, good bye.
IMO, had Colt or S&W attempted such a feat, gun community support would have been over-whelmingly positive. Surprisingly, but too late, the AutoMag series guns are now becoming collectible...go figure.
Years ago we tested an AMT Automag II & a Grendel P-30 at the old Gulf Breeze Pistol Parlor Indoor Range (gone now)...
the Automag had issues...the Grendel didn't, so I ended up with a Grendel...then another...then another...
There's 5 P-30's on Gunbroker right now, if not more. Easy to find online
I simply like the design of the AutoMag series handguns and them being steel versus plastic is a plus for me in my book.
Actually, I expect some issues with any semi-auto feeder and consider it a part of the territory...unfortunate but true.
Sad, but again true, indoor ranges are getting very difficult to find in the modern day course of events. Too many liability issues, high insurance cost, frivilous lawsuits, and greedy lawyers I guess.
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I have a Grendle P-30 and really like it. I don't know why Kel tec didn't just copy it instead of making a whole new design. the Grendle handled the long case problem with a fluted chamber. mine used to only be 100% reliable with the Federal 50 gr. ammo. a couple of years ago I found out it will now eat any brand or bullet weight ammo 100%. they are ugly but 30 rds. of .22 mag is a fist full of power!
I have a Grendle P-30 and really like it. I don't know why Kel tec didn't just copy it instead of making a whole new design. the Grendle handled the long case problem with a fluted chamber. mine used to only be 100% reliable with the Federal 50 gr. ammo. a couple of years ago I found out it will now eat any brand or bullet weight ammo 100%. they are ugly but 30 rds. of .22 mag is a fist full of power!
Could be the patent is still good...patent infringement can be an expensive venture.
I'd like to find one and play with it for a day or two.
I gotta agree; 30+1 is better than 9+1 but ooooo that can get spendy quick.
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Last edited by oldjarhead; 01-24-2012 at 08:37 AM.
The high capacity, and reviews on accuracy I have seen for the PMR-30 are the main reason I have an interest in the weapon. I tend to like rimfire.
It LOOKS like a pretty cool deal--but was relatively higher priced due to its newness last time I looked at one.
Waiting to hear an OBJECTIVE report on function and long-term reliability of the Kel Tec. I have heard things from total reliability on 22 mag autoloaders in general to total unreliability and it seems very dependent on the gun.
Rimfires have me a little concerned over using ammo stored for a long time--I had a bad experience with some bulk Remington ammo (the Federal bricks keep on chugging) stored under heat and cold with misfires and variable shot reports. Don't know how hi-quality 22 mag ammo would hold up.
I feel pretty good about the convertible Single Six revolver.
__________________
In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit -- John Galt
Between the fact I have other guns I want more than the PMR-30 just at the moment, only having seen and not shot, and the price of .22 Mag compared to 9mm Luger I will wait on getting one. I will eventually have one. It's just a matter of all or enough of my concerns being addressed before taking the leap. It does concern me that reliability seems to be a case by case basis. The same is true about the Mosquito. While I do not have buyers remorse since mine mostly isn't picky on ammo I would not buy one again. Since I don't have the money to indulge in a new firearm purchase often all my choices tend to be based on reliability, and price.
Zapp's right. The .22 Magnum was designed for more killing power at longer range for small game. It was to be used in bolt action or lever guns, not semi-autos...and never really meant for semi-auto pistols.
The revolver could, and was however, easily adapted to the longer cartridge as proven by several manufacturers. Ballistics gain? Probably not much from the short barrel but can still be considered formidable.
The real challenge was to design a semi-auto for the .22 Magnum and due to it's longer case made it difficult. AMT/IAI met the challenge with the AutoMag II but as with many new models was plagued by design issues; thus, as is the norm, the shooting community immediately labeled AMT/IAI guns as poor quality and essentually killed further developement causing the manufacturer to fail. Awarded a poor reputation, No support, No market, No sales, good bye.
IMO, had Colt or S&W attempted such a feat, gun community support would have been over-whelmingly positive. Surprisingly, but too late, the AutoMag series guns are now becoming collectible...go figure.
Here's my two... AutoMag III over the AutoMag II
Love my AutoMag!!
Here is my "other" AMT, Ruger knockoff, AMT LIGHTNING, regularly outshoots my S&W 41!!
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The high capacity, and reviews on accuracy I have seen for the PMR-30 are the main reason I have an interest in the weapon. I tend to like rimfire.
Same here but after handling a PMR I'm not so sure. My LGS has them for $599. Once in my hand it felt just like an AirSoft pistol. Super light. It was so light, that I had doubts that it was really a pistol. Makes me wonder if the PMR 30 can stand up to some serious shooting. It would be nice to see one after 1000 rounds, or even 500. I think it would melt it you shot it too much.
Could be the patent is still good...patent infringement can be an expensive venture.
I'd like to find one and play with it for a day or two.
I gotta agree; 30+1 is better than 9+1 but ooooo that can get spendy quick.
George Kellgren (Kel-Tec & Grendel obviously formed from his last name...) designed both pistols and many more...and probably holds the patents.
He likely decided to improve on his original design...but until I get a PMR-30, I won't be able to tell specifically what's really changed/improved.
The PMR-30 is lighter...still holds 30-rounds per mag...reportedly the slide is way different...should be interesting to find out what else goes on!!
Using the GoldenLoki techniques, my Grendels ROCK and are quite reliable.
From what I hear of the first/second batches, probably could hurt to do the same to a PMR-30, either.
Same here but after handling a PMR I'm not so sure. My LGS has them for $599. Once in my hand it felt just like an AirSoft pistol. Super light. It was so light, that I had doubts that it was really a pistol. Makes me wonder if the PMR 30 can stand up to some serious shooting. It would be nice to see one after 1000 rounds, or even 500. I think it would melt it you shot it too much.
This was my concern with the FN Five-Seven. I liked the concept, and the 21 round capacity on them but not the price, so I set it aside as one of those "Maybe one day" guns. About six months ago I saw one at an LGS. Bloody hell $1200? I would rather get and FAL for that! Not to mention the price of that 5.7 ammo! Still, I had to give her a look since I hadn't seen one in person before. Ten seconds of holding it and all interest went out the window. "It feels like an Airsoft" is exactly what I said to the guy behind the counter. He looked a little annoyed by the comment but it was the truth. It felt terrible, and I was afraid just releasing the slide would break it. The PMR-30 has a higher capacity, is a third of the price and in comparison the .22 mag is cheaper than 5.7. I think I can be a bit more forgiving with a $300-$400 pistol in that respect than I can with one that costs as much as a nice rifle.
50 rounds of .22WMR is about $11 and 50 rounds of 9mm Luger is about $19. Where is the problem?
You pay $19 a box for 9mm? I would look around a bit before you payed that much again. Local Walmart has Federal Brass cases 50 round count for $10.97.
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