Lowlife shoots cop in face

[samuel]

Helping a LEO or pursuing justice is not what this thread sounds like.It sounds like most are running around looking for an opertunity to shoot someone to gain fame,try their skills out,or just satisfy their own sadistic feelings.Any time a person wants to take justice and punishment into their own hands they are putting themselves in the same class as the person that commited the crime against society.It is terrible that the officer was shot.At the same time it was a crime against society.It is society,s duty to meet out justice.Personally torturing someone or shooting them when it wasnt self defence or defence of the LEO for a crime against society is not justice,it is sadism. sam.

[LiveToShoot]

Well said Sam...

[gunney_m]

Originally Posted by samuel

Helping a LEO or pursuing justice is not what this thread sounds like.It sounds like most are running around looking for an opertunity to shoot someone to gain fame,try their skills out,or just satisfy their own sadistic feelings.Any time a person wants to take justice and punishment into their own hands they are putting themselves in the same class as the person that commited the crime against society.It is terrible that the officer was shot.At the same time it was a crime against society.It is society,s duty to meet out justice.Personally torturing someone or shooting them when it wasnt self defence or defence of the LEO for a crime against society is not justice,it is sadism. sam.

+1 but as you said, say if I was in the situation I would help period.

[Durandal]

Originally Posted by samuel

Helping a LEO or pursuing justice is not what this thread sounds like.It sounds like most are running around looking for an opertunity to shoot someone to gain fame,try their skills out,or just satisfy their own sadistic feelings.Any time a person wants to take justice and punishment into their own hands they are putting themselves in the same class as the person that commited the crime against society.It is terrible that the officer was shot.At the same time it was a crime against society.It is society,s duty to meet out justice.Personally torturing someone or shooting them when it wasnt self defence or defence of the LEO for a crime against society is not justice,it is sadism. sam.

the question was asked at the beginning of the thread "would you asist or wouldnt you".. and a mention of legality was there. and I would disagree none of us have anything to gain by killing someone. All Im saying is the laws in my state make it so that if I decide to intervene and something goes wrong and the thug ends up dead. Im not treated like a criminal for trying to save someones life.

[LiveToShoot]

Those who've been through use of deadly force training are very familiar with and clearly know the levels of force that must be considered and used before it becomes deadly force.

While certain situations may accelerate actions and decrease the time window for handling/resolving a situation, it still must be a process wherein the first choice isn't just to take a life.

Hopefully the legality issue was addressed and answered for those with the question, and the answer wasn't sought for justification to take the law into our own hands, but rather to help us stay within the boundaries of the law. Self-defense, protecting another person and protecting property are matters to be handled with a great amount of seriousness and responsibility.

Anti-gun people, and even pro-gun people, are alert to, cautious of and want to avoid vigilantly behavior. Hopefully we are pursuing this knowledge so we know what we can and should do in a lawful self-defense situation.

I appreciate the many comments in this thread/forum on this delicate topic. It's good to create opportunities for people to openly discuss their feelings and ways they would address an emergency situation, and then have it buffered by the comments of others.

I certainly would hope that if someone saw me in duress that they would quickly and responsibly come to my aid, and the aid of my family, even if/when it required the use of deadly force.

I appreciate being a member of this forum, and anticipate the good that can come through interaction with other members.

[BluesStringer]

Originally Posted by samuel

Helping a LEO or pursuing justice is not what this thread sounds like.It sounds like most are running around looking for an opertunity to shoot someone to gain fame,try their skills out,or just satisfy their own sadistic feelings.

Wow. How do you come to this conclusion, considering that we're discussing a very specific incident where we have the opportunity to evaluate the sequence of events in a calm, thoughtful manner? What on Earth could be construed as "sadistic" when we're talking about how we might go about saving a LEO's life from being snuffed out by the kind of sadistic animal that would shoot him in the face and then pistol-whip him when he couldn't finish the job because his gun jammed????!!!!

It seems to me prudent to think long and hard about what kinds of situations you would feel justified in pulling your weapon if you're going to carry one. With the benefit now of being able to evaluate the situation as an outsider-looking-in, and after the fact, I would hope that I would have the intestinal fortitude to at least try to save the cop any further injury. The BG has a gun. He's already shot a cop. Is it "sadistic" to say that I wouldn't trust him to give one wit about my life and should deny him the opportunity to do to me what he's already done to the cop? Sadism has nothing to do with it. It's about stopping the threat. The way I've been trained, I don't try to wound the guy, or fire a warning shot over his head, I shoot center mass until there is no longer a viable threat.

Originally Posted by samuel

Any time a person wants to take justice and punishment into their own hands...

"Wants" to take justice in their own hands? The question was, what should the armed citizen do if they happened upon a scene like this. I don't want to ever be in the middle of something like this, but if I find myself there, and I'm armed, what should I do? Keep driving? Pull over and ask the BG to come over to my car so we can sing Kumbaya after I scold him sternly while asking his permission to give first aid to the cop? Where, in anything anyone has said in response to my question, do you get that any of us *wants* to be involved in this kind of scenario?

Originally Posted by samuel

....they are putting themselves in the same class as the person that commited the crime against society.

This is one of the most insulting things I've ever read on any forum. Someone who puts their life on the line to help a half-dead cop is in the same class as the murderous savage who already tried to kill him? Stunning. Where do people learn this kind of pretzel logic?

Originally Posted by samuel

It is terrible that the officer was shot.

Yes, you seem awfully broken up about it.

Originally Posted by samuel

At the same time it was a crime against society.

No, it was attempted murder against an individual, who just happened to be a cop. One can leisurely evaluate how this scenario fits into society's mores afterwards. In the heat of the moment, you do what you have to do to save your own life first, the cop's life second and the BG's life if possible. It's totally up to him whether it's possible to save his own life, and from what I can tell of the guy, he's not likely to advance that outcome. Whatever, if you happen upon this scene you've got two choices; keep driving or do what you have to do to eliminate the threat to the cop's life.

Originally Posted by samuel

It is society,s duty to meet out justice.

If possible, yes. If not possible, if there's no time to seek and/or wait for the rest of society to show up on the scene, either keep driving or stop the threat.

Originally Posted by samuel

Personally torturing someone or shooting them when it wasnt self defence or defence of the LEO for a crime against society is not justice,it is sadism. sam.

So let me get this straight...You happen upon a cop getting the crap beat out of him with a pistol being wielded by a cretin who is trying to finish killing him after already failing to do same, and if you involve yourself, it's NOT in defense of the cop??? It's sadism??? Unreal.

There's a great man in American history named Samuel. I pray that your screen name is not a reference to Samuel Clemens, but one of his more salient quotes comes to mind right about now:

"Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed."

Blues

[blackhawk45]

That SCUMBAG SON OF A BITC# should die real quick,no life sentence, no life behind bars ,at the tax payers expense, his family should be sued for every thing they have ,or ever hope to have, and pay restitution to the police officers family, and his insurance carrier! but some low life Criminal Defence Attorney, will plead for a lesser sentence,and more than likely win!

[Troy]

Originally Posted by samuel

Helping a LEO or pursuing justice is not what this thread sounds like.It sounds like most are running around looking for an opertunity to shoot someone to gain fame,try their skills out,or just satisfy their own sadistic feelings.Any time a person wants to take justice and punishment into their own hands they are putting themselves in the same class as the person that commited the crime against society.It is terrible that the officer was shot.At the same time it was a crime against society.It is society,s duty to meet out justice.Personally torturing someone or shooting them when it wasnt self defence or defence of the LEO for a crime against society is not justice,it is sadism. sam.

naw, i think your overreacting to what your reading. i think everbody is hot cause this is a shameful act done by a POS. it's everbody's anger speaking here. i do believe that everbody thinks that a person should help a LEO if needed and would if they could. toolmans post comes to mind if i remember it right. he is a long standing respected member of the forum, i have a hard time thinking he would feed the shooter through a wood chipper (i hope). at least i think it was toolman that said that, if i am wrong, sorry. sam, you've never overreacted to a news story that got your goat? people are just mad and want something done about it. god i hope i am not held to pay for all the stupid things i have said in my life, i cant afford that bill. i still stand by my earlier post though, i think if you shoot a cop you die on the spot or are hunted like the animal you are and put down. now thats not anger speaking, thats just good public relations.

[Midas]

he should be killed dead on the spot, no questions asked. What a blatant coward.

[samuel]

BluesStringer:Your post condemning me for objecting to having a permit to carry and a mindset to get right into the action,and calling it sadistic to wish to meet out torturous punishment to the evildoer instead of allowing society to set the punishment reenforces what I was saying and I feel I need no defence.If all that was said in the posts was "IF I HAD BEEN THERE I WOULD HAVE HELPED IN ANY WAY I COULD" I would have admired and honored the statements.But when some of the posts went to scenarios even crueler than the badguy had performed,and others showed a desire to take a human life for personal revenge over an incident that had no personal effect,or just a desire to shoot someone,I question who the BG really is.I know he was bad but I also wonder about someone that has the desire to be involved in some deadly force scenario.New police officers go through what they call the "WYATT EARP" phase.So do new consealed carry people sometimes.Yes,I believe you should be sure you are right and doing the right thing before trying to jump in and help a LEO.It would have been real nice if a civic minded CCL had taken a shot at the BG and killed the LEO deader than hell or worse yet,have the cop think you are another bad guy and shoot you deader than hell.I bet your help would have been appreciated. sam.

I hope the day never comes when I consider human life so cheap that I will run around with a gun looking for an excuse to shoot someone no matter how bad they are.I would be just as bad for looking for them. sam.

[LiveToShoot]

"when I consider human life so cheap that I will run around with a gun looking for an excuse to shoot someone no matter how bad they are. I would be just as bad for looking for them."

FORE!

The above quoted text sounds to me like some twisted anti-gun rhetoric...?

Time to strike my earlier "well said" from the record.

Let's get back to the meat of the discussion, and let the bones lay where they are.

[samuel]

Originally Posted by LiveToShoot

"when I consider human life so cheap that I will run around with a gun looking for an excuse to shoot someone no matter how bad they are. I would be just as bad for looking for them."

That sounds like some twisted anti-gun rhetoric...? Time to strike my earlier "well said" from the record.

Do you really want to kill anyone?I was in that kind of life for a few years.I never want to kill any human again.Go with the flow if you want its easier than standing for your own personal beliefs as I am doing. sam.

[LiveToShoot]

My earlier post, "While serving in the USAF I had authorization to use deadly force, as part of my duty assignments, and I'm very grateful I never had to use it." clearly established how I feel about "just killing" someone.

In a self-defense, protection of my family, or coming to the aid of someone else in serious peril is categorized differently to me than "just killing" someone and will be handled as the situation requires, without vigilantly malice, until the threat is neutralized.

Our personal beliefs are just that, I respect yours as such and I'm grateful for the respect you extend to me for mine.

[samuel]

Originally Posted by LiveToShoot

My earlier post, "While serving in the USAF I had authorization to use deadly force, as part of my duty assignments, and I'm very grateful I never had to use it." clearly established how I feel about "just killing" someone.

In a self-defense, protection of my family, or coming to the aid of someone else in serious peril is categorized differently to me than "just killing" someone and will be handled as the situation requires, without vigilantly malice, until the threat is neutralized.

Our personal beliefs are just that, I respect yours as such and I'm grateful for the respect you extend to me for mine.

Everyone has the right to their opinion and that is how it should be.But when my opinion went against just jumping into something or not having any desire to have to get involved in a shooting incident,then I was condemned as cowardly,anti gun and such.I have the belief that if you run around with the mindset that you want trouble and are anscious to get into it,sooner or later you will suceed.If others had seen airmen under a mortar attack,run into the quad .50,s,or smelled the burnt bodies of their comrads from a napalm attack that the coordinance was wrong,or came in from patrol and suddenly heard the whump of bullets fired by your buddies hitting the marine beside you,or had the VC coming in and suddenly claymores set backward went off in your buddys face,or opened up on a shadow and found out it was another unit of americans,or seen the guts roll out of a friend because of a short round from a howitzer,or came back and found that you could never go to sleep in your own house without locking the door to your bedroom and never sleep with your own wife for fear of what you would do when you woke up,Then maybe you can understand why I wrote what I did about being cautious and sure of what you are getting into.I never said a person shouldnt try to save someone else.I was trying to point out that looking for trouble isnt the life I want to live and taking another human life no matter how lowlife it is is not my desire.I have heard the same thing from replacements about the big things they were going to do and if they lived through the first action they suddenly had nothing to say.I know that when it happens you dont know what the hell you will do no matter how much experience you have and when it is over you know little about what really did go on or what happened.So if you wish,condemn me for being a coward,condemn me for not wanting to take a human life,condemn me for praying I never have to.All I am saying is I stand by my beliefs from personal experience and knowing things can go all wrong and I had better be right if I get involved.Condemn me if you wish,I will stand by what I have said. sam.

[LiveToShoot]

Thanks for your reply Sam.

To the best of my ability, on my somewhat limited experience in the areas you've mentioned, I grasp what you're trying to say and why you've said it.

[ArkansasHunter]

Have we pistol packing concealed carry permit totters that have the right to be armed at all times, be looking for opportunity to use our weapons ?
I hope not !
But I hope one of us are near if my son the cop or anyone else ever gets in a situation like this.
A.H

[samuel]

Originally Posted by ArkansasHunter

Have we pistol packing concealed carry permit totters that have the right to be armed at all times, be looking for opportunity to use our weapons ?
I hope not !
But I hope one of us are near if my son the cop or anyone else ever gets in a situation like this.
A.H

I would hope I could assist if your son ever needed me but to me it would not be entered into lightly.I realise the days of being a peace officer for 20 yrs+ and never firing a shot in anger are over.I hope your son never has to be in that circumstance.I knew an Indiana State police officer that years ago at the service plaza at Fremont,Ind. had to draw his revolver and shoot a man that had hijacked a GH bus.He killed the bg but couldnt live with it and quit his job.He was a really great cop up until then.It is hell to live with the necessity of having to take a human life no matter what they are.Tell your son I hope he never has to do it but if he does,do it right and dont take it personal.Its just the difference in times. sam.

[gunney_m]

Sorry but after watching it again I know *amn well I would put my life on the line to help this officer in his time of need.

[samuel]

Again,with certain ccl carriers,in certain instances,LEO,s would be much better off with no help from certain people.If it were someone with good sound judgment and training/experience,okay.If it were someone with a few teeth missing in their drive gear it would probably be a major disaster. sam.

[gunney_m]

Well I guess I dont know what would happen but I know I would try to help and yes I know exactly what you are saying Sam but my consience would get the best of me.