1911 Safety

[iflylow74]

Quick 1911 question, is it safe to carry it with the hammer down on a loaded chamber? I know some carry them cocked and locked.

[wunhunglo]

I don't see why not, I think they all have inertia firing pins, so should be OK. But I have seen a ND when someone was lowering the hammer on a Browning HP, so be very careful lowering that hammer!

[TXplt]

I personally believe all 1911 style pistols should be carried cocked and locked. This is also recommended by most firearms instructors I know. My 1911-style has firing pin block so it wouldn't fire without the trigger depressed in any case (When I carry it, it's cocked and locked). For non FPB, from the other thread (CCW), most others believe that the inertia firing pin would preclude ND. I can't for the life of me though figure out why NOT cocked and locked (dual safeties, and the grip safety on my model shields the hammer). Look at the CCW thread (question of how you operate) for more info.

[ezearln]

The problem with this thinking is a misunderstanding of the mechanics of the firing pin of the standard M1911A1, which has an inertia type firing pin. Basically meaning the firing pin spring holds the firing pin against the firing pin retainer until acted upon by the hammer or another force. The danger here is the weapon being dropped I admit it must be dropped or mishandled in a very specific way to cause a ND but it is still possible. There are but three safe ways to carry a M1911A1 in a ready to use situation! Condition 1 Cocked and locked, one round in the chamber ready for action, requires only the slide safety to be released to be brought into play, Condition three fully loaded magazine inserted and seated NO round in the chamber hammer down requires the operator to "Rack the slide" in order to bring the sidearm into play! Or lastly and the most worthless Condition 4 Weapon fully unloaded no magazine present and the weapon holstered! Meaning you have to load a magazine into the weapon and then rack the slide to be able to employ the weapon. Professionals who carry the M1911A1 do so in only one condition and that is condition 1, Cocked locked and ready to rock period anyone who tells you there is a better/safer way to carry the M1911A1 has never had to carry one in harms way either that or they had an instructor who never had either!

[nathangdad]

Some holsters are made with the leather strap coming between the
cocked hammer and the slide as a common sense method to carry a loaded 1911. The leather strap prevents the hammer from falling on the firing pin should (for some reason) the hammer move out of the cocked position plus the gun is ready to fire when taken from the holster in a time of need.

Personally, I think this is a truly innovative solution to a situation that most likely will not happen but might be fatal to the person carrying the 1911 if it did occur.

[Taurus Fan]

Originally Posted by wunhunglo

I don't see why not, I think they all have inertia firing pins, so should be OK. But I have seen a ND when someone was lowering the hammer on a Browning HP, so be very careful lowering that hammer!

I agree, the most dangerous thing about carrying a Colt Government Model with the hammer down on a loaded chamber is lowering the hammer. I believe many years ago studies were done to determine what force it would take to jolt the inertial firing pin with enough force to dent the primer and fire, and the gun would have to be dropped a considerable distance (like 30 feet?) and land directly on the muzzle to go off.
However, this was just a bit of fluff I recall reading over 30 years ago when I bought my first .45 auto, and my memory could be faulty. The writer could have been mistaken too, so if there are any experts out there that know better, please correct me.

Edit: Regardless of how safe Condition Two is, Condition One, cocked and locked, is still the best and most recommended way to carry a 1911 type pistol. Lowering the hammer for Condition Two carry could have disastrous consequences, it was never meant to be carried that way.

[iflylow74]

Originally Posted by Taurus Fan

...
Edit: Regardless of how safe Condition Two is, Condition One, cocked and locked, is still the best and most recommended way to carry a 1911 type pistol. Lowering the hammer for Condition Two carry could have disastrous consequences, it was never meant to be carried that way.

That has got me to wondering how GI's carried their 1911's in the military.

eazrln, sounds like you may have some military experience carrying the 1911, how did yall carry them?

[mitch_mckee]

Originally Posted by iflylow74

Quick 1911 question, is it safe to carry it with the hammer down on a loaded chamber? I know some carry them cocked and locked.

NO!

A blow to the hammer might fire the gun!

[TACAV]

Originally Posted by nathangdad

Some holsters are made with the leather strap coming between the
cocked hammer and the slide as a common sense method to carry a loaded 1911. The leather strap prevents the hammer from falling on the firing pin should (for some reason) the hammer move out of the cocked position plus the gun is ready to fire when taken from the holster in a time of need.

Personally, I think this is a truly innovative solution to a situation that most likely will not happen but might be fatal to the person carrying the 1911 if it did occur.

Yes!

When I carried my Kimber 1911, it was cocked n locked. Thats how the pistol was designed to be carried. Not only do you have TWO safeties, A manual thumb slide safety, as well as the grip safety on the backstrape, but a lot of the holsters with a thumb break Ive seen were constructed for condition 1 carry as well.

The thumb break fits snuggly around the rear of the slide with the hammer cocked. I guess you could look at that as a 3rd safety if you want. It wont fit any other way.

[TXplt]

+1 EZ.

I think the trap novices fall into is seeing the cocked hammer and it giving them pause when it shouldn't (not realizing that the Glock/Taurus 145 is in a similar situation just the workings are hidden in the slide). This creates wacky (and I believe inappropriate) carry schemes. The 1911 has 2 (or 3 with a firing pin block) safety devices which are designed for the pistol to be carried cocked and locked.

Maybe I'll just opine: Carry your 1911 cocked and locked. If you don't want to do this, buy an LDA or Traditional DA auto. It's probably that simple.

[BaserRonin]

If anyone finds a study about the dangers of carrying it with the hammer down I would be very interested in seeing it. This has been an ongoing argument within my local group as well. There is a lot of here-say about them going off when dropped, but I would love to see something in print with testing data.

[Mooseman684]

Here is the scoop...there is a first click notch on the hammer...If you do Not have the hammer in the first notch, it will be down riding the firing pin and could cause an accidental discharge if the hammer gets struck hard enough.
In the first notch, the hammer cannot hit the firing pin and the safety can NOT be operated. When the Hammer is Cocked, the safety can be operated, and the grip safety also comes into play...But on the grip safety, if you squeeze the trigger slightly and push the grip safety, it will disable the grip safety and be stuck down in the ready to fire position without gripping it.
Releasing the pressure off the trigger will release the grip safety, letting it spring back into the safe position.
So after Racking the slide and chambering a Live round,engage the safety , and the hammer will be fully cocked and Locked in condition 1, and the grip safety will be activated as well.
This is how they were designed to be carried...
I do know some people that carry without a round chambered, and the hammer cocked, and safety Off, so that they can draw, and quickly rack the slide to chamber a round, which takes only a second to do, and be ready to fire, they just feel it is safer to carry unchambered...
Rich

[billy]

ooooh,
thanks uncle moose!

[ezearln]

iflylow I am a retired Navy Gunner's Mate (Guns) HighRisk Core Instructor (Combat Arms) I hold Navy Enlisted Classifications (NEC's) 0811 and 0812 (Small Arms/Marksmanship Instructor) among several others. The condition under which I carried the M1911A1 varied depending upon the individual commands policies to which I was attached. Most often however when I was assigned as security or Police duties I always carried Condition 1 Cocked and Locked, when I was instructing at the Joint Services Police Academy at LAFB this was how we taught each student to carry the weapon. A quick comment as to even being foolish enough to ever carry the pistol fully loaded and the hammer on the half cock notch, this notch is very flimsy and it's sole purpose is to prevent the weapon from firing should your thumb slip off the hammer when trying to manually cock the piece. Properly carried in condition 1 the safety engaged and the weapon loaded (Cocked and Locked) The slide is locked and the hammer mechanically blocked. I still carry this same pistol today in that condition, in the many thousands of students I personally have instructed and certified and I don't want to think of how many hours sitting in a patrol car I have never ever once seen or heard of a M1911A1 going bang in the holster or from being dropped.

[iflylow74]

Originally Posted by ezearln

iflylow I am a retired Navy Gunner's Mate (Guns) HighRisk Core Instructor (Combat Arms) I hold Navy Enlisted Classifications (NEC's) 0811 and 0812 (Small Arms/Marksmanship Instructor) among several others. The condition under which I carried the M1911A1 varied depending upon the individual commands policies to which I was attached. Most often however when I was assigned as security or Police duties I always carried Condition 1 Cocked and Locked, when I was instructing at the Joint Services Police Academy at LAFB this was how we taught each student to carry the weapon. A quick comment as to even being foolish enough to ever carry the pistol fully loaded and the hammer on the half cock notch, this notch is very flimsy and it's sole purpose is to prevent the weapon from firing should your thumb slip off the hammer when trying to manually cock the piece. Properly carried in condition 1 the safety engaged and the weapon loaded (Cocked and Locked) The slide is locked and the hammer mechanically blocked. I still carry this same pistol today in that condition, in the many thousands of students I personally have instructed and certified and I don't want to think of how many hours sitting in a patrol car I have never ever once seen or heard of a M1911A1 going bang in the holster or from being dropped.

ezearln, Thank you! Thats just the kind of been there, done that, experience I was hoping to base my decision on. WHen I get my CCW, I plan on carrying my 1911, "Cocked, Locked and ready to Rock Doc!" Thanks again.

[Taurus Fan]

Originally Posted by Mooseman684

Here is the scoop...there is a first click notch on the hammer...If you do Not have the hammer in the first notch, it will be down riding the firing pin and could cause an accidental discharge if the hammer gets struck hard enough.
In the first notch, the hammer cannot hit the firing pin and the safety can NOT be operated. When the Hammer is Cocked, the safety can be operated, and the grip safety also comes into play...But on the grip safety, if you squeeze the trigger slightly and push the grip safety, it will disable the grip safety and be stuck down in the ready to fire position without gripping it.
Releasing the pressure off the trigger will release the grip safety, letting it spring back into the safe position.
So after Racking the slide and chambering a Live round,engage the safety , and the hammer will be fully cocked and Locked in condition 1, and the grip safety will be activated as well.
This is how they were designed to be carried...
I do know some people that carry without a round chambered, and the hammer cocked, and safety Off, so that they can draw, and quickly rack the slide to chamber a round, which takes only a second to do, and be ready to fire, they just feel it is safer to carry unchambered...
Rich

That first notch is not meant as a safe means of carrying the gun with the hammer only partially down. Don't do it.



Edit: If it were a recommended mode, it would be one of the four carry conditions listed for the .45, but it's not, and never has been. A sharp jolt to the hammer can make it slip off the half-cocked position, and since it has some distance to fall, it's even more likely to set off a round.

Why don't people feel the same uneasiness about carrying modern revolvers that have inertial firing pins with a round under the hammer? It even says in the owners manuals they may be carried safely that way.

[mitch_mckee]

Originally Posted by Taurus Fan

That first notch is not meant as a safe means of carrying the gun with the hammer only partially down. Don't do it.

+1

[rondog]

I'd like to see someone fire a 1911 by striking the hammer while it's resting against the firing pin stop plate, in Con 2. Any idea how hard you'd have to hit the back of the hammer, to drive the firing pin forward enough to set off a primer? Consider that while the hammer is at rest, it's already got the firing pin pushed in as far as it can, and the business end of the pin is still a long way from the primer.

Everyone talks about how "dangerous" it is, I say show me.

[Mooseman684]

Taurus and Mitch, you guys dont know what the hell you are talking about.
Your PM to me ..."45 half-cocked safe ?????

Mr. Mooseman, please edit your post about carrying the .45 in the half cocked position, it's an erroneous and dangerous recommendation."


I'm calling you on this publicly...The first Notch of the hammer just off the Firing pin is SAFE...It is Not 1/2 cocked or even 1/4 cocked...It is just off the firing pin and is perfectly fine to carry the hammer in this position. Government Tests will back me up...You can take a 3 lb hammer an beat on the .45 hammer in this position...You will not hit the firing pin. The hammer locks on the sear because of a notch that is machined as a groove for the sear lip to ride in. I have put the pictures below with the arrow in pen pointing at the area machined into the hammer.....
MVC-012S.JPG

MVC-013S.JPG

I have been a .45 Competition shooter, Colt collector, Kimber Collector, and built Custom .45 autos since 1974 .I started Gunsmithing Apprenticeship training under a Master Gunsmith and the .45 Auto Colt I had to learn First...
I build Combat and RACE guns, and Not one Has ever Failed...The hammer or sear would have to break off , and That is Highly unlikely, since the gun was designed to be "Soldier Proof" and Govt. drop tests confirmed the safety and reliability.
Please don't try and tell a Master Gunsmith to change his post...It is an insult to my Profession and years of training and experience...

Rich

[Taurus Fan]

Originally Posted by rondog

I'd like to see someone fire a 1911 by striking the hammer while it's resting against the firing pin stop plate, in Con 2. Any idea how hard you'd have to hit the back of the hammer, to drive the firing pin forward enough to set off a primer? Consider that while the hammer is at rest, it's already got the firing pin pushed in as far as it can, and the business end of the pin is still a long way from the primer.

Everyone talks about how "dangerous" it is, I say show me.

Exactly, the hammer is resting against metal and can not move. At all.


And Mr. Mooseman, you obviously know what you're talking about, it just runs contrary to everything I've ever heard or read. Still have never seen carrying it in such a manner recommended. By anyone. Ever. But you're the pro, I'll take your word for it.


On second thought, I'll go with this, I found it by googling ".45 half-cock safety?", and it's what I've always seen in print when the subject is brought up:

"half-cock” position, this feature is NOT to be used as a safety. Use the manual safety . The “half-cock” only prevents unintended firing in case of internal breakage, or if your thumb skips off the hammer
during manual cocking".

Col Jeff Cooper seemed to think it was dangerous too, but perhaps he was also wrong:

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/gun_columns/cooper/coop2_092706/