[TXplt]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Aqualung

The Serrif department in my town doesn't let cops carry 9mm handguns because the amount of powder compared to the size of the bullet creates a lot of spin. The amount of spin makes it so it's very difficult to, say, shoot through glass or other similar things. I don't know how they know this, but it's stained my perception of 9mms.

Whaaaaaaaaaaattt ? This has to be a joke.

Finally, a winnable argument .45 vs. .40 vs. 9mm ! LOL Maybe we can finally solve the revolver vs. auto question later today.

All can be stoppers, or not. All should be loaded with high performance ammo. The 9mm is inferior to the .45 (IMHO) for most tasks when both are restricted to hardball ammo--hence the military's switch to the 9mm handgun was, I believe, a bad idea (Good gun, bad round because non-expanding).

Properly loaded, I believe all are good defensive rounds. That being said, a 9mm has to expand to become a .45; the .45 won't shrink and any expansion is a bonus. If I knew I was going to get in a gunfight, I'd stay home . If I forgot to stay home on that particular day, I'd want a .44 or .45.

[perdidochas]

Quote:       Originally Posted by nathangdad

The army tested all sorts of ammunition almost 100 years ago. The .45 230 grain won. Why, why, why, do people drag out these questions?

The army didn't test hollowpoints.

[Aqualung]

Quote:       Originally Posted by TXplt

Whaaaaaaaaaaattt ? This has to be a joke.

Lol, I just go off what people tell me. I've never tried to shoot ANYTHING through glass, so I can't testify to the rationale.

[vikingpreacher]

45 ACP for me, 40 S&W is a fine personal defense/law enforcement cartridge though.

[lorcin25]

Seems to me you can test penetration and damage and all that all you want to....but dead is dead. A 9mm may kill a guy dead and a .40 may kill him deader and a .45 may kill him the most deadest but dead is dead.

Bottom line: Shoot well. Hit the target. Keep shooting til it doesn't go "bang" anymore. Dead is dead.

(Forgive any grammar errors. They were for effect.)

[Taurus Fan]

Quote:       Originally Posted by perdidochas

The army didn't test hollowpoints.

I hear tell they've made some advancements in hollow point design in the last 100 years. I like the 9mm Federal +P+ 9bple, used to be limited to law enforcement only but is now available to the public. Seems to have a good track record for 20+ years of police shooting data.

[.280Rem]

Quote:       Originally Posted by TXplt

Whaaaaaaaaaaattt ? This has to be a joke. Finally, a winnable argument .45 vs. .40 vs. 9mm ! LOL Maybe we can finally solve the revolver vs. auto question later today. All can be stoppers, or not. All should be loaded with high performance ammo. The 9mm is inferior to the .45 (IMHO) for most tasks when both are restricted to hardball ammo--hence the military's switch to the 9mm handgun was, I believe, a bad idea (Good gun, bad round because non-expanding). Properly loaded, I believe all are good defensive rounds. That being said, a 9mm has to expand to become a .45; the .45 won't shrink and any expansion is a bonus. If I knew I was going to get in a gunfight, I'd stay home . If I forgot to stay home on that particular day, I'd want a .44 or .45.

Too much powder compared to the bullet size creates too much spin to penetrate glass? WTF?

That said, 45ACP, yesterday, today, everyday.

[Taurus Fan]

Quote:       Originally Posted by .280Rem

Too much powder compared to the bullet size creates too much spin to penetrate glass? WTF? That said, 45ACP, yesterday, today, everyday.

Someone who passed themself off as an expert threw some buzzwords at him and he bought it. It's happened to us all when starting out.

[ander254]

You think if you cut a couple grooves in the bullet it would act like a drill bit spinning so fast? I bet it would make a hole can you imagine a nerf football designed bullet. I'd buy a box just to play with

I have thought about the fact that many people are carrying hollow points. I think that would have a big impact as to windshild penetration versus a FMJ but it is just a thought. WE NEED A TEST WINDSHIELD....any donors?

[TXplt]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Aqualung

Lol, I just go off what people tell me. I've never tried to shoot ANYTHING through glass, so I can't testify to the rationale.

Sorry, guy, didn't mean to scoff too much or be mean.....my apologies. What you've been told isn't true......This happens to all of us from time to time.

Lighter high velocity bullets can sometimes be deflected more easily than heavier, slower bullets but this is a function of momentum, angle and the type of collision. All bullets can be deflected depending on the dynamics. Penetration depends on weight, speed, and bullet shape, type, and composition.

Enjoy the site !

[Bravo]

If someone asked me a couple of years ago, I would have said .45acp all the way. Since then, I've seen the light and learned some physics, and know feel that the 9mm, with more ammo and less recoil is probably a better choice than a .45acp, at least for me.

[LarryO1970]

Quote:       Originally Posted by TXplt

Sorry, guy, didn't mean to scoff too much or be mean.....my apologies. What you've been told isn't true......This happens to all of us from time to time. Lighter high velocity bullets can sometimes be deflected more easily than heavier, slower bullets but this is a function of momentum, angle and the type of collision. All bullets can be deflected depending on the dynamics. Penetration depends on weight, speed, and bullet shape, type, and composition. Enjoy the site !

As for bullet performance... lighter high velocity vs. heavier, slower velocity can be answered simply as this: Ask any Vietnam veteran who had their M-14 taken away and replaced with the *new* M16... the M14 shot through stuff... barricaded people, trees, etc. whereas the M16 either bounced off or multiple hits were necessary to shoot through. Why wait for your enemy to move from cover when you can shoot through it?

This is also relevant with pistol cartridges for PD work, home defense, etc. due to what a perpetrator may be hiding behind, wearing (example: leather coat vs. t-shirt) a heavier round will go through leather when a higher velocity, lighter load just might not...

As for pistol cartridges, the .40 S&W is my bullet of choice. I chose this over the 9mm for the reason stated above. Heavier, slower, etc. It was a toss-up between the .40 S&W and the .45 ACP. I chose the .40S&W for capacity and controllability for the lil-miss to be able to control also...

lorcin25 makes a very valid point... shot placement... and it echo's what a SEAL once told me... "If I shoot you twice in the chest and once in the face, are you gonna care what caliber it is?" It's all about shot placement.

[TXplt]

Quote:       Originally Posted by ander254

You think if you cut a couple grooves in the bullet it would act like a drill bit spinning so fast? I bet it would make a hole can you imagine a nerf football designed bullet. I'd buy a box just to play with I have thought about the fact that many people are carrying hollow points. I think that would have a big impact as to windshild penetration versus a FMJ but it is just a thought. WE NEED A TEST WINDSHIELD....any donors?

Testing might be fun ! Although the bullets might be spinning fast in terms of RPM, they're really not in terms of distance covered (if you ever see a slow-mo film you can see that they'll make maybe 1 or 2 turns max as they go thru the ballistic gelatin). There's not much of a "drill" effect from this -- Maybe 1 revolution or so per foot covered. Having said that, a round like a DPX or SXT might make more damage as it "petals" while it turns, but again this is more of a spiral than a drill type of effect. Additionally, the handgun rifling (including all the snubbies I own) for me has been more than adequate to stabilize all the factory bullet weights I've put thru my handguns. Never seen any indications of tumbling.

[mym1a]

sorry you won't stir an arguement with me i'm rather partial to the 45 acp.

[mickey knox]

I am new here but i saw this post and wanted to reply.

one: i think Godzilla is awsome but would be much better with GAU 44 mini-gun for an arm

two: i have carried the 9mm, .45 and .40 for work and by far love the springfield XD in .40 the best. 45 is nice and powerful, 9mm accurate but the .40 is a better middle ground in my opinon. however, from experiance, nothing is better than a good shooter. a gun is a tool as is a hammer. i can not build a house but a master carpenter can. besides, they are all fun enough to own one of each in my eyes

[KW Gary M]

I own handguns in all 3 calibers as well as a couple other calibers. I own both revolver and semi. They will all, even a .22, will stop and or kill an attacker with a well placed shot. A .22 to the temple will kill faster than a .45 to the toe. Now that we have determined common sense I will say my preference is a .40 165 Grain. My carry gun of choice is my XD Subcompact .40 loaded with Golden Saber 165 Grain. It makes a big enough hole to stop most people. The gun is small and light enough to not give me a bad back lugging it around, 165 Grain is heavy enough to go through leather, denim or any heavy clothing and fast enough to keep going in once it has gone through the jacket or clothing and the Golden Saber has a proven record of wide expansion. We all have opinions and they may all differ. All my opinion means is that it is best for me personally.

[sunwheel29]

Anybody who thinks the .40 cal is an acceptable law enforcement, military or personal defense weapon probably hasn't witnessed the aftermath of a .40 cal shooting.


In my county, we had a guy shot himself in the leg with his .40 and drove himself to the hospital, if that tells you anything.

You might as well carry a baby with you and have the baby slap somebody, as it would probably have more stopping power and you don't have to have a permit to carry it.

[philinmedford]

There are a million stories out there, doesn't matter the caliber. Here's one:
Jimmy Taylor was lucky enough to survive a gunshot wound to his forehead, but doctors are struggling to save an eye that popped out as a result, police say.
Prosecutors on Thursday charged a Buena Vista Township woman with shooting her 34-year-old boyfriend in the head during an apparent domestic dispute.
Latoyya K. Junious, 25, of 4872 Eva faces charges of assault with intent to commit murder of Taylor, possessing a firearm while committing a felony and carrying a concealed weapon at 2093 California in Bridgeport Township.

Saginaw County District Judge Terry L. Clark arraigned Junious and set a $150,000 cash or surety bond.
During a Thursday, June 5, preliminary hearing, District Judge Kyle Higgs Tarrant will determine whether enough evidence exists for Junious to stand trial in Circuit Court. A conviction could lead to a sentence of up to life in prison with the possibility of parole.
Bridgeport Township police have said Taylor received a .45-caliber slug to his forehead.
Taylor, who also suffered a gunshot wound to his inner thigh, was in St. Mary's of Michigan hospital in critical condition Thursday.
Just after 2 a.m. Tuesday, police answered a 911 call from a woman at Taylor's home reporting that someone shot a man.
One bullet from the semi-automatic handgun entered the man's forehead, traveled along the inside of his skull and exited the right side of his head near his ear, authorities said. The other slug entered his left rear hip area and exited through his inner thigh.

So, shot twice at point-blank range with a .45 and treated at the hospital

Full Story Here

[philinmedford]

Just couldn't resist this one, fairly recent too. "One shot stop"?


Prosecutors: NC man shot victim 45 times


11/14/2008
Associated Press

Prosecutors say a man shot by his best friend 45 times lived through the first 32 shots.
The Winston-Salem Journal reported that prosecutors highlighted the findings of pathologists at Freddie McDowell Jr.'s murder trial Thursday after defense testimony the 24-year-old man suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder.
Authorities say McDowell killed 19-year-old Drew Howell at a mountain home in Wilkes County in June 2006.
McDowell's attorney says he acted in self-defense and was abused as a child. But prosecutors showed photos of Howell, who was shot in the eyes, groin and chest with a .38-caliber revolver and pointed out McDowell cleaned the cabin before police arrived.

[big shrek]

I think the video that kills 9mm for ever being a serious man-stopper choice is the one where the big guy (about a 400-pounder) is shooting at cops from his front porch, gets hit a dozen or so times by 9mm by cops and then he runs down the stairs while attemtping to reload his pistol still being hit by cops bullets...and finally gets taken out by two shotgun slugs to the head. He was shot 27 times total including twice in the head with 9mm fire before the two slugs finished him off.

It's been shown in almost every police training room at some point. Probably on U-tube somewhere as well.

I like 9mm, don't get me wrong, but it would be as far from my first choice as a carry weapon as a .22lr would be. I've got a bible that holds a .22WMR Derringer for those occasions where you don't want to be totally devoid of protection, but can't really carry something more substantial without notice. Sometimes it's size that matters, the smaller, the better.

9mm also has it's place in the carry world...for small people it's a better choice than .380, .25, or .22's. But if someone can't handle a .40 or .45 ,they shouldn't carry it.

But if you are strong and/or large-framed, get as powerful a weapon as you can handle safely. I prefer my 10mm for most carry applcations & have been known to conceal a Desert Eagle .50ae as well...but I'm big enough to get away with it. The .40S&W, .357SIG, and .45acp are solid performers and have a good track record in police/military applications. If you have the size & strength, have fun