[Ruger100]

Quote:       Originally Posted by sunwheel29

Anybody who thinks the .40 cal is an acceptable law enforcement, military or personal defense weapon probably hasn't witnessed the aftermath of a .40 cal shooting. In my county, we had a guy shot himself in the leg with his .40 and drove himself to the hospital, if that tells you anything. You might as well carry a baby with you and have the baby slap somebody, as it would probably have more stopping power and you don't have to have a permit to carry it.

Quite possibly the stupidest thing I've ever read. i think you should go down to your local range and haves somebody try to shoot you with a .40 and see if it feels like a baby's slap.

[tommy]

i bet he was high on something. there is a video out on youtube of a vietnam guy who takes multiple rounds from ak's and other rifles and still keeps running at the cops til finally he drops.

Quote:       Originally Posted by big shrek

I think the video that kills 9mm for ever being a serious man-stopper choice is the one where the big guy (about a 400-pounder) is shooting at cops from his front porch, gets hit a dozen or so times by 9mm by cops and then he runs down the stairs while attemtping to reload his pistol still being hit by cops bullets...and finally gets taken out by two shotgun slugs to the head. He was shot 27 times total including twice in the head with 9mm fire before the two slugs finished him off. It's been shown in almost every police training room at some point. Probably on U-tube somewhere as well. I like 9mm, don't get me wrong, but it would be as far from my first choice as a carry weapon as a .22lr would be. I've got a bible that holds a .22WMR Derringer for those occasions where you don't want to be totally devoid of protection, but can't really carry something more substantial without notice. Sometimes it's size that matters, the smaller, the better. 9mm also has it's place in the carry world...for small people it's a better choice than .380, .25, or .22's. But if someone can't handle a .40 or .45 ,they shouldn't carry it. But if you are strong and/or large-framed, get as powerful a weapon as you can handle safely. I prefer my 10mm for most carry applcations & have been known to conceal a Desert Eagle .50ae as well...but I'm big enough to get away with it. The .40S&W, .357SIG, and .45acp are solid performers and have a good track record in police/military applications. If you have the size & strength, have fun

[only.45]

let me tell you guys all somthing. i have my dad, my step dad,my 2 uncles, and 2 friends dads that each did 2 tours in vietnam with the exception of 1 of my uncles and step dad they did one tour each. how i understand of what info they will all talk about, because none of them talk much about what happened there from 1964 to 1966 and all around these years. when you talk 9mm they will all laugh,.40,357,and anything elese they wont even look at. it seems like they go deff,dumb,and blind around all these guns. of course if theres nothing elese you do what you have to do and they will carry but with not much cofidence. however when you get any of them talkin usally around the camp fire or a snowy day when your in there domain. it comes out about the legendary war horse and whhat it did in these times. i heard them all say at one point or another at different times and some of these guys dont know one antother. the .45 will take down anything on 2 legs. trust me a 45 is a complete nightmare to get shot with its was designed to kill a human and nothing more. one of them told me he had a man of significant size running full steam at him while in a ditch lookin up shot from the waist hit him in the shoulder and spun him like a top flyin backwards about 9' where he was laid out and disabled. the others talk as well from time to time and its all the same. 45 45 45 45 45 45 45. so guys all the stats on these other guns and bullets are good. and yes if you hit the target dead center you will clip his wings even with a .22 for sure. but isnt it nice to know you have a little room for error with the war horse. to me its just cheap insurance if that time ever comes in which we need to defend our own lives. last but not least when you hear actual accounts of the war horse 45 in action instead of a guy doing testing on somthing thats not real or a whole bunch of numbers that in the end really dont give you a conclusive concept just a hypothesis. isnt it better first hand real life combat accounts that tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help all of us god. if your still not convinced you should be becuase this little story might just save your life one day.

[Constantine1911]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Ruger100

Quite possibly the stupidest thing I've ever read. i think you should go down to your local range and haves somebody try to shoot you with a .40 and see if it feels like a baby's slap.

I agree I wouldn't want to be shot with a 40 caliber pistol.

[Bravo]

Can we all agree that:

-Any of these to the head will be lethal, immediately.

-Any of these to the heart and through the spine will be lethal, immediately.

-Any of these to the leg or arm will not stop the assailant.

-Any of these to the mid section may or may not stop the assailant.

-With all of these choices, shot placement is key.

-Handguns, when possible, shouldn't be thought of as a first line of defense.

Can I get a +1?

[Ruger100]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Bravo

Can we all agree that: -Any of these to the head will be lethal, immediately. -Any of these to the heart and through the spine will be lethal, immediately. -Any of these to the leg or arm will not stop the assailant. -Any of these to the mid section may or may not stop the assailant. -With all of these choices, shot placement is key. -Handguns, when possible, shouldn't be thought of as a first line of defense. Can I get a +1?

+1 Absolutely. That being said, I would rather have one well placed shot with my little LCP 380 than 5 poorly place shots with a 45

[billy]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Ruger100

Quite possibly the stupidest thing I've ever read. i think you should go down to your local range and haves somebody try to shoot you with a .40 and see if it feels like a baby's slap.

well
what if you grabbed the baby by the ankles and swung as hard as you could?
and the baby had a really hard head?

[billy]

well?

[Constantine1911]

+1

[billy]

thats what i thought

[JMcDonald]

99% of all the knocking Ive heard about the 9mm has been references to military combat. They are all using FMJ rounds. Modern HP rounds are MUCH MUCH better, in any caliber. There are of course accounts of "some guy took XX 9mm rounds and didn't fall," but for every one of those there is something like the aforementioned "man shot XX times with rifle and didn't fall" story, so I take them all with a grain of salt.

The main reason the .40 is viewed as so much better than the 9mm is because it has mostly been used with JHP rounds (which perform much better), while the 9mm, as I've said, has been used by the military, which means many if not most accounts will have involved FMJ rounds. The .40S&W is about in the middle in both power and capacity.

IMO, the ~5% increase in the chance of getting a one-shot stop with a .45acp over a 9mm might not always offset the ~35% average decrease in magazine capacity going from a 9mm to a .45acp (using 17rds and 12rds, respectively). Plus, for many shooters, the ability to put perhaps 5 rounds on target with a 9mm as fast as they could shoot 3 times with a .45 could be very important.

[billy]

nobodys mind will ever be changed on this one.

[stitchclimber]

[Constantine1911]

Love the pics, even saved em.

[tommy]

you can say what you want about the .9mm round but it must be pretty good because it's used in 9out of 10 drive by shootings and most of the times the guy dies from the gun shot wound???splain that one lucy!!

[billy]

Quote:       Originally Posted by tommy

you can say what you want about the .9mm round but it must be pretty good because it's used in 9out of 10 drive by shootings and most of the times the guy dies from the gun shot wound???splain that one lucy!!

who's lucy?

[tommy]

luicy and dezy ornez show have you forgot the saying !!splain it to me luicy!!!

[zenger]

I see all these responses about the 45 having more 'knockdown power' stop watching hollywood movies people.

please read this...



P1 Exclusive: The truth about handgun knockdown power
By Commander Jeffry L. Johnson
Long Beach Police Dept., Detective Division
Special contributor to PoliceOne

There is undoubtedly no other myth more perpetuated and closely held (even now) by many law enforcement professionals than what I have previously referred to as the “Demonstrative Bullet Fallacy,” or in plainer terms, the idea that any handgun of any caliber has “knockdown power,” in that the sheer size and force of the bullet can knock a person down. Closely related is the myth that bullet size — rather than shot placement — can determine or ensure a “one shot stop.” Both are inaccurate, unscientific, and dangerous, and have no place in the training of law enforcement professionals.
Not that any of this is new information. This fact has been generally known for about six hundred years or so. Notable intellects such as DaVinci, Galileo, Newton, Francis Bacon, and Leonard Euler all studied physics and ballistics, as did many others. It was Newton’s research that led Benjamin Robbins to invent the ballistic pendulum in 1740 (the first device to measure bullet velocity).

There is no mystery here — the truth has been documented time and again. So how is it that we still don’t get it? One word: Hollywood.

Ever since Dirty Harry came along with his .44 Magnum hand-cannon, when someone gets shot in the movies or on TV (and don’t forget video games) two things happen: 1) the victim is thrown back convulsively, through windows, off balconies, etc. and 2) there will immediately emerge a geyser of blood spewing forth from the wound, leaving no doubt that this person has been shot, and pinpointing exactly where the bullet has struck.
Many firearm and shooting magazines picked up on the idea as well, discussing and propagating the pseudo-scientific idea of handgun “knockdown power” and “one shot stopping power.”

The Truth

The Federal Bureau of Investigation Firearms Training Unit published a concise yet insightful report that speaks directly to this issue of firearm wounding ballistics and the misconceptions that have surrounded this area.
These so called [knockdown power] studies are further promoted as being somehow better and more valid than the work being done by trained researchers, surgeons and forensic labs. They disparage laboratory stuff, claiming that the “street” is the real laboratory and their collection of results from the street is the real measure of caliber effectiveness, as interpreted by them, of course. Yet their data from the street is collected haphazardly, lacking scientific method and controls, with no noticeable attempt to verify the less than reliable accounts of the participants with actual investigative or forensic reports. Cases are subjectively selected (how many are not included because they do not fit the assumptions made?). The numbers of cases cited are statistically meaningless, and the underlying assumptions upon which the collection of information and its interpretation are based are themselves based on myths such as knockdown power, energy transfer, hydrostatic shock, or the temporary cavity methodology of flawed work such as RII. (1)

The truth is, the whole idea of handgun knockdown power is a myth. It simply doesn’t work that way. The FBI report further clarifies:
A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down. This is simple physics, and has been known for hundreds of years. The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball. Tissue damage is the only physical link to incapacitation within the desired time frame, i.e., instantaneously. (2)

The report cites previous studies that have calculated bullet velocities and impact power, concluding that the “stopping power” of a 9mm bullet at muzzle velocity is equal to a one-pound weight being dropped from the height of six feet. A .45 ACP (45 auto) bullet impact would equal that same object dropped from 11.4 feet. That is a far cry from what Hollywood would have us believe, and actually flies in the face of what even many in law enforcement have come to mistakenly believe.

The FBI report also emphasizes that unless the bullet destroys or damages the central nervous system (i.e., brain or upper spinal cord), incapacitation of the subject can take a long time, seemingly longer if one is engaged in a firefight.

Failing a hit to the central nervous system, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels of the torso, causing circulatory collapse is the only other way to force incapacitation upon an adversary, and this takes time. For example, there is sufficient oxygen within the brain to support full, voluntary action for 10-15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed. (3)
More often than not, an officer firing at a suspect will not immediately know if he or she has even struck the target. The physics are such that the body will rarely involuntarily move or jerk, and usually there is no noticeable spewing of blood or surface tearing of tissue. Often there is no blood whatsoever. (4) That is why military surgeons and emergency room physicians take great time and pains to carefully examine gunshot victims for any additional small holes. Often that is the only indication the person has been shot.

Personal Experience

But let’s be real here. I can cite numerous additional academic and scientific sources that support this article, but I know how cops think. We’re not always the most trustful of academics, especially when it comes to our street survival. So let me add my own personal experience to the data. Please allow me to go beyond the cold facts and share with you why I know what I’m telling you is the truth.

In the mid-1980s I was involved in my first shooting as a police officer. But to give the story context, I must go back to 1982 when I graduated from the Long Beach Police Academy. The first thing I was told by experienced training officers I trusted and looked up to, was to “get rid of that pea-shooter 38 they issued you and buy a real gun with some knockdown power!” Although we were issued .38 caliber revolvers, we were authorized to carry a number of different caliber weapons on duty, the largest of which was the 45 Long Colt.
The .45 Long Colt round next to the diminutive 9 millimeter.
Imagine my surprise when I was confronted by a suspect armed with a shotgun in a dark alley and my Long Colt didn’t live up to its billing. I fired five rounds at the suspect. It wasn’t until I fired my last shot — intentionally aimed at his head — that he went down. I can’t begin to relate to you the surprise and horror I felt when there was absolutely no outward indication I was hitting my target. It was the kind of situation cops have nightmares about.
What actually happened? I fired five rounds at a distance of about twelve feet. The first one missed completely. The second struck his upper leg and broke his femur. The third struck him in the shoulder/chest. The fourth round hit him dead center—in the heart. And of course, the fifth was a headshot. Three of the five rounds created fatal wounds, though only one had immediate results.

Needless to say, I was pretty shaken by the whole thing. Not by the morality of what I’d done; the suspect had already fired at a bystander and taken a hostage earlier. He was also high on PCP. That wasn’t my inner struggle. What shook me was how unprepared I felt; how totally off guard I was taken by what occurred. No one ever told me it would be like that. The reality was contrary to everything I thought I knew about deadly force.
That experience more than any research or study is the reason is why I am writing this article. Police officers risk getting into shootings every day; we need to know the dynamics of how a shooting incident may unfold. It will affect our equipment, tactics, and most important, our mindset. We need to know that rarely will one shot incapacitate an assailant. We further need to be able to explain this when our fellow officers are involved in shootings where multiple shots are fired. The public honestly believes it’s like the movies. Why would we ever need to fire twenty or thirty rounds to subdue an armed suspect? Problem is we can’t teach it or explain it until we understand it ourselves. (5)

Footnotes:
1. Patrick, Urey W., Federal Bureau of Investigation, Firearms Training Unit, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,” p.13. (1989).
2. Ibid., p.9.
3. Ibid., p. 8.
4. Newgard, Ken, MD, “The Physiological Effects of Handgun Bullets: The Mechanisms of Wounding and Incapacitation” (1992).
5. For you visual learners still unconvinced, I highly recommend viewing the Discovery Channel MythBusters segment, “Blown Away,” (Brown Note Episode, Second Season), where the knockdown power myth is visually and scientifically debunked once and for all.

[mx308250]

Getting shot by an airsoft gun with plastic BB's would stop me. But if you want the truth all the rappers sing about their "Glock 40's" so that should end the argument.

[sea_chicken1]

Well Rappers can sing about their .40's all day long but still cant hit a single thing in a club point blank to someone no matter what they carry. I know this though my .40 will produce 4 inch groups at 30 yards and I hit what I'm aiming at.