[deadzero]

[QUOTE=TACAV;1000791]Shot placement matters.


yea,yea,yea.... fans of the 9mm, (they should have just called it a 380 magnum), always fall back on that one. a well placed .22LR will work too. but that does not make it as good as a .45.

there was good reason why the military chose the .45 cal. in 1911. (they tested it against the 9mm, as well as other calibers). Al Capone also had great respect for the .45 caliber also. as well as General Thompson, the designer of the Thompson sub-machine gun, Al Capones Favorite weapon.



another good one is the people that assume the .45 will not expand.....
""But when, (if), the 9mm expands it's as big as a .45"

[TACAV]

Quote:       Originally Posted by deadzero

there was good reason why the military chose the .45 cal. in 1911. (they tested it against the 9mm, as well as other calibers).

I wouldnt call myself a 9mm fan, as stated before Im a fan of "Carry the biggest round you can train with regulary and shoot the most accurate and fastest with fan."


But going back to your comment,

If I was the military and stuck using ONLY ball ammo per the Geneva Convention and stuck using 1924's bullet technology I would probably go with the .45 ACP as well too.

But as I am not limited to ball ammo and am living almost 100 years since the evolution of the 1911 and 85 years worth of bullet design technology later I dont have any qualms nor do I feel under gunned with carrying a good .40 SW or 9mm JHP round for defense. Again as stated before, "Todays 9mm is not your grandfathers luger round."

[scout7]

the military went from the 45 to the 9mm carry more ammo plus shoot to wound not kill it takes more people to tend to wounded person than it does for a dead one 2 people and a shovel vs 3-4 people and a medics, evac docs etc......... i have owned the 45 FN and a colt commander the colt was stolen like them both am concidering the sig sauer 226 9mm to replace it thats my take on shoot often shoot safe

[ninjatoth]

I think with all the specialty ammos and +P variety of 9mm ammo,the 9mm is a great round.I am not saying it is better than a .40 or .45,but I believe with the right ammo,a 9mm is just as powerful as a .40 or .45 and can do the job just as well.And with so many guns out there in 9mm that hold 17+1 and even 19+1 with +P rounds in excess of 450ft lbs energy per round,I just think 9mm is overal great.Of course,just like a small suped up car,the 9mm has it's drawbacks,it shoots hot with lots of pressure and can wear on the gun,as where a standard .45acp operates at about half the pressure of a 9mm+P.Comparing a 9mm+P to a .45acp is like comparing one of those fast and the furious cars to a corvette.Both do the job well,take your pick of how you want to go.

[danf6975]

over all the best overall round for terminal ballistics in my opinion and that of being recommended to FBI is .40 with the federal HST.
you get 16.5 inches of penetration on calibrated gell with 4 layer denim and 3/4 symmetrical mushrooming and cavity is large. personally i like 9mm .40 and .45 all , but all for different reasons.
like some have said. fire what you can most comfortably control .

in the end any bullet is better than no bullet and penis size being a reason for carrying a round you are not capable of controlling is a bad reason to die

[Taurus Fan]

9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the
9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the
9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the
9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the
9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the
9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the
9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the
9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the
9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the
9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better........

TO INFINITY....AND BEYOOOOOOOND.

[BarryHalls]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Taurus Fan

9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better no the 9mm is better no the .45 is better........ TO INFINITY....AND BEYOOOOOOOND.

They are different tools intended for different purposes.

Their function can be quite different.

[BORIS]

This is all old news.

In the end they all do the same thing. wrong ammo = wrong outcome. Right ammo and proper placement and no one other than a gello junky or paper puncher will see a difference.

Give me a 9 if capacity and penetration is the game. Give me a 45 if the same performance a 9mm is desired with just enough penetration to ge the job done. I have seen 45 ball that went through and through that bounced off interior walls after exiting. I have seen 45 hollowpoints do the same. While 9mm tends to keep punching through things (both with the same end results).

I have found the ultimate solution to all this though. 45GAP. It is nothing more than a fat 9mm. Does the same job, fits in a 9mm frame gun, and has 66% the capacity as most 9mm wonder guns. If only the 40 could fling 200 and 230 grain bullets at the same velocity as a 45 with 45 chamber pressures and lesser blast, then it would no longer be the ultimate compromise.... No need anymore We got the technology to put 45 power in 9mm sized guns these days. If only that would have happened 20 years ago. People would be saying 40 what? and have to go to Reeds to order ammo for it like the 41AE (a superior round to the 40 anyway). Wouldn't need 357SIG either. S&W came out with the 356TSW the same year as the 357SIG round. The differences are the TSW was marketed to competition shooters and not law enforcement. I mean jeesh, TSW has the same ballistics, retains the capacity of 9mm guns... Who wants that? Gotta have what mr. lawdawg carries... The American market is a funny one indeed.

BTW, why the resurection???????

[nmgonzo]

Anything on a 1911 platform.

[testhop]

ok i am a long fan of the best combat pistol ever made the 45 auto.
one thing a 9mm or a 40 may expand but a 45 will never srink.

[danf6975]

Quote:       Originally Posted by testhop

ok i am a long fan of the best combat pistol ever made the 45 auto. one thing a 9mm or a 40 may expand but a 45 will never srink.

you know for those that say this i ask a simple question
would you rather be stabbed with a 1/2 inch drill bit or a 3/4 ice pick?

[blue fox]

Anybody for a 155 and solve the problem?

[tommy]

Quote:       Originally Posted by danf6975

you know for those that say this i ask a simple question would you rather be stabbed with a 1/2 inch drill bit or a 3/4 ice pick?

i would take the ice pick because a drill bit will tear up more stuff but the ice pick is smooth and pointed.

[Morgan]

Stand in front of them let me shoot you with each tell me what hurts worse.

Honestly what ever you shoot better. I've watched a deer get hit by 5 deer slugs and still keep going
(NOT ME)
shot placement is every thing. Do your job and the bullet will do the rest.
I'm a 9mm guy just cause it's cheap, and effective. Low recoild and a larger amount of ammo in the mag are a big plus to me. I love 1911's but want more than a single stack mag can hold I find the 9mm double stacks great and with little recoil and cheaper rounds its all I'll ever need

[ninjatoth]

The biggest round will always have the most potential.Even though 9mm,.40S&W and .45acp are all similar to some extent in stopping power,one has to remember that the .45acp is loaded to a little more than half the pressure of 9mm and .40S&W.As gun technology and metal strength increases,the hotter and hotter a .45acp could be loaded,and a .45acp has the most room for powder.It's amazing as it is how a .45acp can do the same and more than the other two with way less pressure.

[danf6975]

umn.. whats the nutonian sums?
as the mass increases so does the energy requirement to move it requiring more power.
if you represent one side you have to represent the other. the only thing that really matters is ft/lbs of energy , expansion , and energy transfer which by todays standards most bullets in all 3 calibers do a good job of.
its like pitting muscle car power vs new ricer burner tech but in the end as long as your round can penetrate a foot and spread to 3/4 you are good to go in most cases .
the ultimate weapon is a very squishy piece of grey matter

[BORIS]

Quote:       Originally Posted by ninjatoth

The biggest round will always have the most potential.Even though 9mm,.40S&W and .45acp are all similar to some extent in stopping power,one has to remember that the .45acp is loaded to a little more than half the pressure of 9mm and .40S&W.As gun technology and metal strength increases,the hotter and hotter a .45acp could be loaded,and a .45acp has the most room for powder.It's amazing as it is how a .45acp can do the same and more than the other two with way less pressure.

The problem with loading the 45 hotter to take advantage of stronger metal and better designed pistols like a GLOCK is that over a 100 year old 1905 built COLT is the colt will not handle all that psi as well.

Some people even shoot 45 Super from Glocks and H&Ks with a heavier spring and most modern 1911s will do the same, but not an older 1911. GAP 45 loads are loaded to ACP +P levels because the newer, stronger Glock can handle it. All 230 and a couple 185 GAP loads are down loaded to ACP standard psi and are pussy cats to shoot from a G37. THe GAP will never have the potential a ACP will, but ammo makers are too scared of someone shooting a load safe for a modern pistol in a 1905 Colt. Hence the 45 "super" .

None of that matters anyway unless you can hit the target.......

[ninjatoth]

The small 9mm has held it's own for over 100 years,and the modern +P loads are rivaling the stopping power of the all famous .45acp.The .45acp is more simple,big and bad and kicks butt and is just about the best man stopper ever created with very low pressure exerted on the gun.The .40 has all the pressure of a 9mm with a projectile weight in between a 9mm and .45.With that kind of pressure,the .40S&W should have better performance than it does in my opinion,but it works none the less,it just bores me alot more than the 9mm and .45acp.

[cjleete]

What caliber would it take to put this thread out of our misery?

[GunTechie]

Given all that I've read about muzzle energies? Just carry the right round for you. For me it's a hi-cap mag 9mm +P+. The Muzzle Energy approaches that of a .40 S&W, and more capacity than a .40 (i.e. Springfield XDM takes 19+1 in a 9mm, 16+1 in a 40).

And most people will go down from the shock of being shot...

Yes - I know -- if I need 20 rounds I'm probably in a lot of trouble, but I don't want to be thinking that when I need # 18...

I's qualify that by saying if I had to shoot a bear, give me the biggest hand cannon they make...