Need info for unintentional discharge case

jxtc27 · 09-23-2009, 12:09 PM

I'm looking for reliable info on the Davis Ind. 380. I am an armed security gaurd and was involved in an unintentional discharge with this firearm. The firearm was not properly cleared when checked in by another ofc.

The firearm had a .32 cal round stuck in the chamber. My company is trying to say the ATF report shows it is interchangeable with this caliber. Is this true?

Any other sources of info on this firearm would be great.

big shrek · 09-23-2009, 12:24 PM

The Davis Industries pistols had a problem with the safety not functioning...might be something you can work as an angle.

Put the safety on & pull the trigger...50/50 chance it'll fire.

As far as I know, .32 is about as interchangeable with .380 as a .22 Magnum is with .22lr...
meaning, it ain't.

DaTeacha · 09-23-2009, 12:25 PM

I would check the SAAMI specs on the cartridges involved. They are pretty much the authority for chamber dimensions and such. That should let you know if there could have been a .32 cartidge in the chamber.

If that is the case, the officer who used the gun prior to your AD would be at fault. If there was not a .32 in there, it could easily be the fault of the gun manufacturer. If this is a big liability suit and I was the plaintiff, I would be looking at Davis Industries as the cash cow. Are you saying the .32 went off and that's the reason for the AD? If that's the situation, the case of the .32 should be easily found.

big shrek · 09-23-2009, 12:31 PM

this thread might also help.
http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/gen...ndustries.html (Davis Industries)

Talks about their habit of Slam-fire when the slide is racked to chamber the first round.

Those pistols were absolute CRAP...Saturday Night Specials. You should be able to find a LOT of info about how lousy they were.

TXplt · 09-23-2009, 12:38 PM

Here is a link to a previous thread:

http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/gen...s-p-380-a.html (DAVIS INDUSTRIES P-380?)

and another:

WikiAnswers - What is the history of Davis Industries Firearms

Here is some basic info on the .32 ACP and .380 ACP:

.380 ACP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

.32 ACP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You will see the cartridges are not the same diameter at all (7.62mm for the .32 vs. 9mm for the .380).

Was it an ND or an AD ? (in other words, did someone depress the trigger and the gun go bang or did it just go bang on its own--when dropped, attempting to clear, or chambering a round ?). ADs due to gun malfunction are extremely rare; ND's due to someone depressing the trigger aren't (and in general are hard to blame on anyone but the gunhandler). One of the primary gun safety rules is to ALWAYS assume any gun is loaded and will go bang when the trigger gets depressed -- this is why even when conducting dry fire practice one ALWAYS clears the gun and ALWAYS points it in a safe direction ANYTIME the trigger is depressed.

I always keep my guns pointed in a safe direction when clearing or when chambering a round; particularly when the slide comes forward. Never had a slam fire but if it happens someday the gun will be pointed where it will not do harm.

If YOU depressed the trigger and the gun went bang I'd personally put it in the (solely) YOUR responsibility part.

As far as Davis industries, unless I'm mistaken I think they went out of business a long time ago while the frivolous gun manufacturer lawsuits were happening. I don't think there was anything inherently wrong with the gun itself as far as safety but might be wrong (not sure of the drop test history). From what I remember the frame was based on the Raven .25 series (not a great gun IMHO but the one I had years ago was plenty safe when properly handled).

Not trying to be scolding or condescending and hope this helps

Mooseman684 · 09-23-2009, 12:46 PM

Lets look at the size...32 ACP is

Case type Semi-rimmed, straight
Bullet diameter .309 in (7.8 mm)
Neck diameter .336 in (8.5 mm)
Base diameter .337 in (8.6 mm)
Rim diameter .358 in (9.1 mm)
Rim thickness .045 in (1.1 mm)
Case length .680 in (17.3 mm)
Overall length .984 in (25.0 mm)

The .380 ACP is...
Case type Rimless, straight
Bullet diameter .355 in (9.0 mm)
Neck diameter .373 in (9.5 mm)
Base diameter .374 in (9.5 mm)
Rim diameter .374 in (9.5 mm)
Rim thickness .045 in (1.1 mm)
Case length .680 in (17.3 mm)
Overall length .984 in (25.0 mm)

I can say honestly that the 2 rounds are NOT safely interchangeable in a Davis .380 or any other gun chambered for .380 ACP ammo , But, If you will notice the neck diameter of the .32 acp is .336 and is smaller than the bullet diameter of the .380 of .355 (.019 difference) so in reality the cartridge should fall into the barrel by all rights.
The .32 Case is the same length as the .380 case , so while it will be loose in the chamber, it is indeed long enough to be struck by the firing pin if the trigger is pulled , but I would normally say it is unlikely that the cartridge would fire, as it would be too deep for the firing pin to strike it. With a .016 difference in rim diameter there is only a 50% chance of the extractor being able to grip the rim and extract a .32 cartridge because of .036 larger chamber diameter , but if the extractor was gripping the case when the gun was in battery , it could fire a. 32 cartridge. The spent case would be either split or Blown out due to the more than loose fit...

Rich

Lobo0311 · 09-23-2009, 01:10 PM

If your company is using that type of firearm, they need to think about maybe letting you supply your own firearm. Or at the very least giving some remedial firearms training to their employees. BTW, just out of curiosity, did you remember to clear the weapon yourself upon taking possesion of it.

samuel · 09-23-2009, 01:25 PM

Put .32acp and .380acp on your search bar and copy the picture and dementions of each proving they aren't compatible. ,,,sam.

Pope130 · 09-23-2009, 02:59 PM

The big danger with the .32 and .380 (and what I think happened here) is that the .32 is just a bit smaller. The .32 is a semi-rimmed case, the rim being slightly larger than the case. A .32 will slip past the chamber and into the barrel of a .380. The rim will catch at the front of the chamber. A cursory examination of the chamber will give the impression it is clear. On chambering another round the next bullet will strike the base of the first round. If you're lucky it will jam the first round and render the weapon useless. If you are not lucky, the bullet nose will strike the primer hard enough to set the first round off.

The same problem exists with some other cartridges, notably 20 gauge shells accidentally loaded into a 12 gauge chamber.

Robert

TXplt · 09-23-2009, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pope130

The big danger with the .32 and .380 (and what I think happened here) is that the .32 is just a bit smaller. The .32 is a semi-rimmed case, the rim being slightly larger than the case. A .32 will slip past the chamber and into the barrel of a .380. The rim will catch at the front of the chamber. A cursory examination of the chamber will give the impression it is clear. On chambering another round the next bullet will strike the base of the first round. If you're lucky it will jam the first round and render the weapon useless. If you are not lucky, the bullet nose will strike the primer hard enough to set the first round off.

The same problem exists with some other cartridges, notably 20 gauge shells accidentally loaded into a 12 gauge chamber.

Robert

Thanks for writing this--it's very interesting and something I would never have though of. It seems to me though due to the .32 being alot smaller of a bullet it would exit the barrel with very low velocity (albeit still dangerous if the round would have gone off). Another reason to carefully clear a firearm and ALWAYS make sure the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction when chambering or clearing rounds. Is the same thing possible with the .32 and 9mm (at least as far as a bore obstruction is concerned--just curious).

The 12/20 gauge thing is notably different in that the 20 gauge round won't go off solely with a 12 gauge chambered behind it but does cause a dangerous bore obstruction when the 12 gauge round is fired. I remember this from a hunter safety class years ago where they admonished us never to carry 12 and 20 gauge ammo together when hunting with a 12 gauge.

Thanks again !

Pope130 · 09-23-2009, 04:12 PM

TXplt,
Yes the same problem exists with the 9mm Parabellum, and the 9mm Makarov. I just tried this using a 32 Snap Cap in the barrel of a Star M-43, and an FEG PA-63. The .32 will go almost all the way through the chamber. The rim gets caught at the start of the rifled portion of the barrel.

I should have been more clear about the 20/12 gauge problem. The danger there is not that you will have an AD when chambering. You can have a catastrophic failure when the 12 gauge round is fired. At the gun store where I used to work we had a Browning Model 5 we kept as an example. The chamber was partly blown out and had distorted the receiver, the barrel was bulged and completely jammed the action. The fella firing it was not seriously injured, but considered himself very, very lucky in that.

Robert

jxtc27 · 09-24-2009, 01:58 PM

Thanks for all the comments! The .380 was checked in by a visitor for 24hr holding. An identification tag was fastened loosely to the trigger gaurd (which is company policy) While holding the firearm in my palm and checking the tag...Bang! Round was spent with minimal velocity and shell casing, once extracted, was split.

SwedeSteve · 09-24-2009, 02:27 PM

I think whoever tagged that pistol is to blame for not properly clearing it.

DaTeacha · 09-24-2009, 02:53 PM

So you just picked it up, held it, and it went off??? Nothing moved, just BANG? Based on what you said, it could have gone off sitting on a table with no one around. That doesn't make any sense at all unless you were dealing with the world's longest hangfire. You would have a hard time convincing anyone in a legal setting that's what happened. Something had to hit that primer. If you will need to testify about the incident, you might have some problems with that explanation. Is there some detail you missed, like you racked the slide or moved the safety, or felt the slide move forward, the tag string snagged the trigger, or something?? Did the slide move when it went off, do you have bruises or marks of any kind on your hand from the slide which would substantiate that you were not holding it in a manner that would enable you to pull the trigger?

The biggie here -- is anyone trying to show you were negligent or somehow at fault for the discharge? Set up a defense against that as your first priority, then worry about the .32 being in the gun.

HEMI · 09-24-2009, 03:10 PM

Thats why we assume every fire arm is loaded!
Hope no one was hurt, If your company is making you carry these guns seek other employment asap.

madcratebuilder · 09-25-2009, 08:27 AM

It is possible for a 32acp to discharge in a 380 chamber. I have seen 9mm Lugers that have had 7.62 ammo discharged in them. That's real close to the 32/38 size.

Big Dog · 09-25-2009, 08:57 AM

Any smaller round can and will fire in a bigger caliber chamber. I have examples, found at the range, of a .40SW fired in a .45ACP chamber - the front 3/4's of the case is ballooned out. Ditto with a 9mm Luger case fired in the .40SW chamber - same ballooning. One would expect the smaller cartridge to go deep enough to not be able to be fired - but it DOES happen.