[338RUM]

but he could use a 270 REN that is a 22 hornet blown strait to 270 diameter.

[deadzero]

Quote:       Originally Posted by ProfessorP

Can't speak about OH or PA, but it IS legal to use a 223 in WV.

for W.Va you are correct, if it is fired from a rifle. handguns is straight wall cases 357 or larger. bottle neck cases 25 cal. or larger now only applies to handguns. my mistake.

[338RUM]

I thought that in WV you could use anything that was centerfire in rifle configuration.

[ZombieHunter]

Quote:       Originally Posted by deadzero

Uh...no you cant. it doesn't meet the minimum muzzle energy requirements of 350 ft/lbs for handguns for use on deer in Va. you need to check your facts first.

Oh...I was merely going by the FACTS presented in this thread. In Texas, it is legal to hunt a deer with a .25ACP. Of course, I'd have to be standing right next to Bambi to get a decent shot with that little thing, but I can still legally do it...

[ProfessorP]

For those interested in West Virginia deer

From the WV regs:
"It is illegal to hunt deer with:
-a shotgun using ammunition loaded with more than one solid ball, or a rifle using rimfire ammunition of less than .25 caliber.
-a handgun using a straight-walled case of less than .357 magnum cartridge or a bottle-necked of less than .24 caliber.
-a fully, automatic rifle, shotgun, or handgun."

[338RUM]

so I was right! if it is a centerfire in rifle configuration it is deer legal

[ProfessorP]

Yep, seems to me you can.

[stonesfan08]

i wouldnt use them

[Tack Driver]

A lot of people criticize the use of magnums more than the use of these varmint guns. How is a .223 more ethical then a .300 Win Mag?

[Whootsinator]

I could see how SOME may consider it more ethical. Less meat is lost, making the 'life' of the animal worth more. Less waste, more efficient. Note: Not more efficient ballistics, more efficient harvesting.

I'm personally not an advocate for .223 deer hunting, but I like to see all angles.

[ZombieHunter]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Tack Driver

A lot of people criticize the use of magnums more than the use of these varmint guns. How is a .223 more ethical then a .300 Win Mag?

I don't consider my .223 to be a "varmint gun", I merely consider it to be "my rifle". Shot placement is critical to a "clean kill". You use what you shoot best, and you use it within the parameters of its capabilities. If you aren't confident that you can kill the animal cleanly and efficiently with your rifle, don't shoot that animal. That's the only "ethics" of hunting one really needs to follow...

[ProfessorP]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Tack Driver

A lot of people criticize the use of magnums more than the use of these varmint guns. How is a .223 more ethical then a .300 Win Mag?

Your point is well made.
My deer hunting buddies think a 7mm Rem Mag is too much gun, but when I shoot a deer with it, it's down. Nobody said a word when I walked into camp with an AR15, suggesting it may be too small. And when I shot a deer with it, the deer dropped. And you know what, the lost meat was the same; virtually none. Couple of broken ribs and some lost lungs, that's about it. (Or the head.)
You know, everybody has an opinion (isn't there a saying about that?)

Shoot what works.

By the way, I know plenty of guys who'll fire off 4 or 5 shots at a deer after missing it as it runs away. Of course, they're using "acceptable" calibers. What can be said for THAT?

[ZombieHunter]

Quote:       Originally Posted by ProfessorP

Your point is well made. My deer hunting buddies think a 7mm Rem Mag is too much gun, but when I shoot a deer with it, it's down. Nobody said a word when I walked into camp with an AR15, suggesting it may be too small. And when I shot a deer with it, the deer dropped. And you know what, the lost meat was the same; virtually none. Couple of broken ribs and some lost lungs, that's about it. (Or the head.) You know, everybody has an opinion (isn't there a saying about that?) Shoot what works. By the way, I know plenty of guys who'll fire off 4 or 5 shots at a deer after missing it as it runs away. Of course, they're using "acceptable" calibers. What can be said for THAT?

What can be said for THAT? Well, if no one else will, I'll say it...those guys should probably switch to a caliber that's a bit cheaper to shoot, so they can spend a little bit more time on the range becoming more acquainted with their rifles.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...the only "ethical" way to hunt any animal is to do so in a manner that kills the animal definitely without delay. Obviously, a .50BMG will drop a deer dead in its tracks...but only if you actually hit the deer. Likewise, so will a .22Mag with appropriate shot placement and a hollowpoint slug, as so often demonstrated by my uncle in his youth (back before they outlawed it, of course...he's in his late 60's now). BTW, he never lost a deer, but this is the same man who won a drunken bet at the age of 17 by shooting an electric fence in half from the front porch with that same pump-action rifle!

The point I'm getting at is kill what you're shooting at, and make sure you can kill it, and you're within the bounds of a good "clean" kill. If you're not 99.44% sure you can kill it, just sit there and wait until a clean shot comes along. A dead deer is no good to anyone if it died long after running beyond where you could track it.

One other piece of advice for the novice hunters...wait ten minutes after taking your shot and seeing the deer fall. Let him bleed out in peace, just in case you didn't hit exactly where you were aiming. It's just cruel to chase a dying animal, and you're more likely to get him if he lays down to die instead of running off when he gets spooked after you run up on him to claim your kill. Smoke a cigarette, call your girlfriend, whatever...just give it a few minutes, and let the animal die in peace.

[jrswanson1]

I think a better point to this whole thing is the more people hunt with ARs, the more people will consider it a general purpose rifle, not just something to kill people with. I will be taking both of my ARs into the woods this fall. One I partially painted tan, the other is all black. It's called "normalizing." If you can use one in .223 and kill a deer with it, fine, do so. I'm using 6.8 SPC handloads. In fact, I've been pondering a quest for myself. I'm taking a deer in every state that it's legal to hunt with a semi-auto. I may not make it to all 40 states where it's legal, but I'm going to do this. We can't have the antis demonizing something, as it makes it easier for them to divide and conquer.

Jim

[gunadvocate]

^ well said

[Tack Driver]

Quote:       Originally Posted by ZombieHunter

What can be said for THAT? Well, if no one else will, I'll say it...those guys should probably switch to a caliber that's a bit cheaper to shoot, so they can spend a little bit more time on the range becoming more acquainted with their rifles. I've said it before, and I'll say it again...the only "ethical" way to hunt any animal is to do so in a manner that kills the animal definitely without delay. Obviously, a .50BMG will drop a deer dead in its tracks...but only if you actually hit the deer. Likewise, so will a .22Mag with appropriate shot placement and a hollowpoint slug, as so often demonstrated by my uncle in his youth (back before they outlawed it, of course...he's in his late 60's now). BTW, he never lost a deer, but this is the same man who won a drunken bet at the age of 17 by shooting an electric fence in half from the front porch with that same pump-action rifle! The point I'm getting at is kill what you're shooting at, and make sure you can kill it, and you're within the bounds of a good "clean" kill. If you're not 99.44% sure you can kill it, just sit there and wait until a clean shot comes along. A dead deer is no good to anyone if it died long after running beyond where you could track it. One other piece of advice for the novice hunters...wait ten minutes after taking your shot and seeing the deer fall. Let him bleed out in peace, just in case you didn't hit exactly where you were aiming. It's just cruel to chase a dying animal, and you're more likely to get him if he lays down to die instead of running off when he gets spooked after you run up on him to claim your kill. Smoke a cigarette, call your girlfriend, whatever...just give it a few minutes, and let the animal die in peace.

You can make a much cleaner kill with a .30-06 versus a .223

[Tack Driver]

Quote:       Originally Posted by jrswanson1

I think a better point to this whole thing is the more people hunt with ARs, the more people will consider it a general purpose rifle, not just something to kill people with. I will be taking both of my ARs into the woods this fall. One I partially painted tan, the other is all black. It's called "normalizing." If you can use one in .223 and kill a deer with it, fine, do so. I'm using 6.8 SPC handloads. In fact, I've been pondering a quest for myself. I'm taking a deer in every state that it's legal to hunt with a semi-auto. I may not make it to all 40 states where it's legal, but I'm going to do this. We can't have the antis demonizing something, as it makes it easier for them to divide and conquer. Jim

Jim, you did make a very good point, I think the 6.8 SPC is fine for deer anyway.

[Paper]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Tack Driver

You can make a much cleaner kill with a .30-06 versus a .223

My last deer was killed with a .223 and it dropped and died exactly where it stood. The deer before that was shot with a 30-06 through the heart and it ran 75 yards and kicked for a half a minute. The three before that were also shot with the same 30-06, through the front shoulder or heart/and or lung area, and all didn't die as fast as the one shot with my AR15..

Which was a cleaner kill?

[Rifle_Shaman]

AR of any type is a no go in PA.

Unlawful Sporting Arms: Automatic and semi-automatic rifles and handguns; and air or gas-operated rifles and handguns.

[deadzero]

Quote:       Originally Posted by jrswanson1

I think a better point to this whole thing is the more people hunt with ARs, the more people will consider it a general purpose rifle, not just something to kill people with. I will be taking both of my ARs into the woods this fall. One I partially painted tan, the other is all black. It's called "normalizing." If you can use one in .223 and kill a deer with it, fine, do so. I'm using 6.8 SPC handloads. In fact, I've been pondering a quest for myself. I'm taking a deer in every state that it's legal to hunt with a semi-auto. I may not make it to all 40 states where it's legal, but I'm going to do this. We can't have the antis demonizing something, as it makes it easier for them to divide and conquer. Jim

I like the thought. that was one of my reasons for buying the Remington R-25 in .308. you make a very good point.