[armydoc7]

thats flawless logic there no denying it. i agree that we should do everything we can not to cast a negative light on this pastime. the truth is that enough people already oppose it as it is. i dont think that it will every fully be restricted or outlawed though. its big business. and not just for private corporations. its big business for the government. it not only collects revenue for things like hunting licenses and deer tags but for the tickets the game warden issues as well. this allows us to have jobs and so on and yadda yadda yadda. i gues the paradox im facing is we shouldnt flaunt the fact that we have certain types of weapons availible or we will end up like california. not allowed to have .50 cal or ar15's. but having one and not using it is near to the same thing. i dunno, youve got me thinking on this one AC fixer . thats what i love about a board like this. its brainfloss! lol

[lynxpilot]

Dang. Just ordered an AR, but now I think I'll just use it as a fencepost. Do the little v-shaped clips for barbed wire fit around them?

[ACfixer]

Well trust me and take it from one who knows, you don't want to end up like California. I look at things this way guys, I have a Harley and it's loud when I get on the gas. Out on the open road or at a buddy's house out in the woods etc... well boys can be boys right? On the other hand when I ride down my street at night or early morning I am careful to go easy on the gas so people don't hate my motorcycle. My actions can affect other people's right to ride as well. Sure, you can blast your pipes at 6am and at this point in time there is really nothing they can do about it and if they complain I can give the proverbial middle finger.... for now. That is until one too many people do it and set off the mayor's car alarm in the middles of the night and his wife starts ragging on him about a city ordinance yada yada... It just makes sense to me to be polite and do my best to give off a good public image in the neighborhood and then cut loose with the loud pipes out on the open road.

Same goes for hunting, I can pull a deer tag and use my Cali-legal AR to hunt bambi, it's perfectly legal as of now. But to me it just looks a little bit overkill on the surface right? It's just a perception thing, but often times our good intentions are trumped by another's mistaken perceptions.

[gunadvocate]

deep AC

[ZombieHunter]

Hey, folks...I'm new here. The reason I joined this forum was because I just built an AR15, and most certainly plan on using it for deer hunting, even though it was built for "other purposes".

For the record, I already have a 12ga Mossy 500 "Persuader" model with 20" barrel and a hand-made pistol grip shaped and machined out of carbon-steel barstock for "housework". The AR15 has a 20" bull barrel and a flat-top upper...that's for cleaning up the lawn!

The rifles I've previously used for deer hunting were my antique Browning .243 semi-auto, and a cheap .308 bolt action (didn't even know Mossberg made rifles until I got it!).

As soon as I finished assembling the AR, I took it to the range. I ran a 20rd clip through it on the 25m range to get the scope's windage sighted in, and then took it to the 100m range. I shot 5 rounds (freehand, with the scope's eye relief maladjusted), and still managed to put them all within a 2.5" group.

I haven't managed to get back to the range in the past week and a half, but holding it steady enough was my biggest detriment, and I have since installed a bipod.

I have zero use for "sport hunting", and shoot only what I intend to eat. As a result, I won't take the shot unless I can put it through the left ear and out the right eye, so it doesn't destroy any meat...and deer, like damned near every other animal on the planet, won't put out more than a twitch before it drops if it suffers such a wound.

The AR was shooting off-the-shelf "value pack" .223 ammo from WallyWorld, on its first time at the range, during the first time I had ever shot that rifle and the second time I had ever fired a .223 rifle...and I managed to put five rounds into a space the size of a cigarette pack, shooting freehand.

Bambi steps to me, and I'm either gonna see the pink mist or I'm gonna nick her ear...

[RightWingWacko]

At least in my State (WA) it would be illegal to use an .223 to shoot any "Big Game". It would only be legal for Coyote or Varmint hunting.

[ZombieHunter]

Quote:       Originally Posted by RightWingWacko

At least in my State (WA) it would be illegal to use an .223 to shoot any "Big Game". It would only be legal for Coyote or Varmint hunting.

In Texas, our only restrictions on deer hunting with a rifle are these:

You can't use a rimfire rifle.

You can't use a full-auto rifle.

You can't use a sound suppressor.

The end.

I love Texas!

[wcassidy]

CT has a 6mm/.243 or larger restriction on big game, i suppose one could just change uppers

[Boa_Breeder]

I'm a Marine..... I have have a great confidence in my ability to place a 5.56 round on target in all conditions, with or without optics.... I've had no problem taking head shots at 200 meters with an ACOG.... headshot=no reflex zone..the most humane way to kill a deer..... or anything for that matter.(I dont hunt for trophy(stupid...hanging dead animals on your wall is just creepy and an odd way of showing off one's manliness).
.... I could use my .308.... but I'm a much better marksman with my 5.56.....

To me Blasting the front end of the deer with a 7MM mag or 30-06 is just a waste.... I've seen the mangled mess those guns can leave.... I hunt for meat... and deer that run wounded have bad meat....

Learn to shoot and take a head shot.... if you happen to miss the deer runs off...uninjured

[Ten Man]

Quote:       Originally Posted by boa_breeder

to me blasting the front end of the deer with a 7mm mag or 30-06 is just a waste.... I've seen the mangled mess those guns can leave.... I hunt for meat... And deer that run wounded have bad meat.... learn to shoot and take a head shot.... If you happen to miss the deer runs off...uninjured

bravo!!!!!

[SightNSqueeze]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Otter

The 5.56X45mm round works well on deer. It transfers all it's energy into the animal causing a massive wound. The heavier 7.62 mm bullets tend to blow through with a smaller exit wound. I lean toward the light high speed or extra heavy slow big bore.

Big hole or little hole, shot placement is the key to a clean kill. Personally, I am against using "any" .223/5.56x45mm for deer hunting. My brother, on the contrary, uses a Mini-14 with 55 grain hunting loads. To his credit, he is a crack shot and managed to perform quick one shot kills at "reasonable" ranges on every deer he shot. Unfortunately, that is not the case with a lot of today's hunters. Sometimes, we have to set standards based on a broader common denominator, which is why a lot of states won’t allow the use of .223/5.56x45mm on large game. By the way, my brother also has a nice .303 Enfield SMLE sporter which I feel is more appropriate for deer hunting. Now, since he doesn’t hunt with it, I wonder if he’ll just give it to me …

[jrswanson1]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Boa_Breeder

Learn to shoot and take a head shot.... if you happen to miss the deer runs off...uninjured

Um, no. If you "miss" you may have

1. Blinded the deer in one eye
2. Hit the jaw and not the brain, leaving it to die a lingering death
3. Hit the nasal passage so it can't smell, leaving it vulnerable to predators

I don't care how great of a shot you are, deer are not static targets. All it takes is for the deer to move its head just a bit between when you pull the trigger and when the bullet arrives and you've got a wounded deer and you don't even realize it. Center of mass hits are used for a reason, to have a little more margin of error to make a clean and humane kill.

Jim

[ACfixer]

I'm with Mr. Swanson. The area of a deer's brain and brain stem is smaller that your fist. Yes I too can hit a fist-sized object with my .223 as long as it holds still... but if he perks just as you shoot and you blow his nose off it's gonna be a messy kill at best and more likely and injured deer you may or may not find. Not sure about anyone else but I could run for a long ways from someone that just shot my nose off.

The kill-zone at the front end of a whitetail deer is much larger and shot placement is indeed still critical, but generally with a well placed shot you get a (*somewhat*) clean hole through meat as the bullet expands then massive wounds in the vital organs. I just think it's a better choice. YMMV.

[Boa_Breeder]

Quote:       Originally Posted by jrswanson1

Um, no. If you "miss" you may have 1. Blinded the deer in one eye 2. Hit the jaw and not the brain, leaving it to die a lingering death 3. Hit the nasal passage so it can't smell, leaving it vulnerable to predators I don't care how great of a shot you are, deer are not static targets. All it takes is for the deer to move its head just a bit between when you pull the trigger and when the bullet arrives and you've got a wounded deer and you don't even realize it. Center of mass hits are used for a reason, to have a little more margin of error to make a clean and humane kill. Jim

Say what you want... I shot at moving targets all the time in the military...

[ACfixer]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Boa_Breeder

Say what you want... I shot at moving targets all the time in the military...

Yeah, but what do you think the average hunter's skill level is in comparison to your own? We had Navy SEALs shoot guys in the head from a moving boat but I'm thinking most guys here couldn't make that shot and therefore shouldn't take it.

I don't think we should confuse shooting an enemy combatant in Fallujah by a trained Marine marksman with the humane taking of game by the average hunter.

[jrswanson1]

I have more respect for the deer here than the human turds you were shooting at over there. Especially after reading that story in the Powder Keg about that kid who was abducted over there.

Jim

[twtalbot]

Quote:       Originally Posted by acfixer

yeah, but what do you think the average hunter's skill level is in comparison to your own? We had navy seals shoot guys in the head from a moving boat but i'm thinking most guys here couldn't make that shot and therefore shouldn't take it. I don't think we should confuse shooting an enemy combatant in fallujah by a trained marine marksman with the humane taking of game by the average hunter.

+1

[danjojoUSMC]

How can people make a statement, not admitting it's throwing out a wild guess, that .223 rounds are not enough for deer when they haven't even tried it?

It sounds like the same b.s. you hear from people who only learned about guns and ammunition from their papi who learned from his papi....longer barrel is more accurate type of crap.

Fact is some .224 caliber bullets are better for deer than some 7mm or 30 caliber bullets. It sounds like some people only imagine 40-55gr. varmint and fmj performance when someone mentions a .223....what about a 55gr. Barnes TSX, 60gr. Partition or 75gr. Hornady BTHP?

When you look at actual field reports and terminal ballistics tests done by respected professionals the data says they definitely adequate...or you could just listen to your know-it-all papi or uncle who has been hunting in the sticks with the same old guns since 1970.

It doesn't mean they are better than your personal beloved rifle caliber, but they are 100% adequate with an adequate shooter.

It is not any less reasonable than those who use 180gr. 30-06 or 300 win mag rounds (more suited to Elk and Moose) year after year.

[Joe Brainard]

This reminds my of being eight years old and arguing whether elmer's glue or scotch tape were more useful.

[338RUM]

I say Elmer's glue because when ur done sticking stuff together you can eat it!!! Try that with scotch tape!!!! LMAO