Let's design the US Army a new battle rifle

[bnorton325]

im not posting this as a guy who is running his mouth for the sake of running it. i am posting this as a 5 time veteran of iraq and afghanistan. while there is room for improvement on the M4 it seems to be getting a bad wrap thats really un do for it.

first of its not the gun or the caliber that is the issue. i am in the airborne infantry and since 2001 have been in my fair share of fire fights (i just got home from iraq in nov for the third time). its the ammo thats the issue. cheap manufactoring practices never give us a standard round. and the full metal jacket ammo that we get, thanks to the geneva convention, was designed to wound not kill. that is the purpose of it. killing one takes one off the battle field, wounding one takes at least two or three when his buddies try to carry him off. although that doesnt become the case most of the time now it wasnt a flawed theory. i have seen what the round will do and have facilitated some face to face meetings with allah with it. if used properly it will do the job.

the units in the army that are on the streets...and this is where the arguing will insue...i mean really on the streets are all outfitted with sights. every rifle we have in our company has an eotech, acog or cco on it, along with a buis. i know what the arguement is going to be...billy joe from his national guard quatermaster unit is carrying an m16 and doesnt have all the bells and whistles while he is walking around the FOB. yeah, roger, got it.

the m4 is perfect for what we do in iraq. most of your ingagements are within 150 meters. CAG (or Delta Force) trains and zeros on this doctrine. advanced warfighter group (awg) that embeds trainers and advisors into operating combat arms units trains the same way. i have yet to get into a long range gun battle. and even if i did it wouldnt be much worry since the ak's they are spraying and praying with are crap. entering and clearing a building ( battle drill 6, if anyone is keeping up ) is our main task now. its what we focus on 85% of the time. the m4 is perfect for getting in and out of small tight doorways, turning tight corners into sporatic hallways and clearing up the stairs that are in every house.

in my line of work ounces, not pounds, make or break a mission. with all of the new gear we tote the light infantry is not light any more. i am a 190 lbs guy that weighs in for flights at 320 lbs with gear for flights. we do have m14's in the rotation and even m24's now for the line, but the added weight of the 7.62 would be a killer on rolling missions the may leap frog over 8 - 12 k looking for a single target. and you have to take into account that in every 9 man lin squad there are 2 m249 saws that provide plenty of fire power. and every vehicle at least has a m240b on it. QRF and close air support are just a phone call away. we are not getting beat by superior fire power. and this is not viet nam where we are going up against battalions and brigades of well trained doctrine following soldiers...this is a street fight against insurgents.

i guess im just rambling on because i got my feathers a little ruffled. it just strikes a nerve everytime get home and hear how we could be doing things better or hearing joe sixpacks battlefield tactics, techniques and procedures. i mean know disrespect and i dont want to come of rude to anyone here. but i have carried an m4 since 2001...and im hear complaining while the guys on the other end of it are runing out of virgins!

thanks guys...have a good weekend

[BattleRifleG3]

Here's a question for a guy who's been there:
Lots of people defend the AR design with the qualification "if you clean it properly".
Do you think that the AR's need for disciplined maintenance helps it not to be as useful if it fell into the hands of the enemy?

[wunhunglo]

Britain just about developed what were talking about here in the 50's; They almost adopted a Bullpup rifle (EM2) in .276/.280 calibre. However the project stalled because the US insisted on Nato standard of a .30 calibre round.

""To force the matter, on April 25, 1951 the Labour Government announced the adoption of the EM-2 as the Rifle No. 9. The fall of the Labour government in late 1951 coupled with new Conservative Prime Minister Winston Churchill’s desire to please the Americans sounded the death knell for the rifle and the cartridge. After months of debate in the House of Commons, where Churchill was forced to concede that the EM-2 was superior to either the American or Belgian rifles on offer, the FN example chambered for the T65 7.62 mm cartridge was officially adopted by the British Army on February 1, 1953 as the L1A1 SLR.""

Looks like we had the foresight but lacked the political will to move forward.

As for our L85, the first British Rifle to fail the standard acceptance tests......doh! politics again, the politicos new better what the troops needed.
I would say that the Steyr-Aug is probably the best battle rifle system in use today and if they adopted a decent cartridge such as 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 it would be ideal. Plus, of course, the old Galil rifle accessory, the bottle opener. Every battle rifle should have one!

[Don357]

Originally Posted by varmit_slayer

give them an M1 with a synthetic stock and a fully auto option. M1's had probably the best action of any semi auto rifle. I think the 30-06 has proven itself over the years. I also like the 308. They are interchangle to me. It is true that AK's could probably take more abuse, but they aren't accurate past 200 yards or so.

What you are describing sounds alot like the Beretta BM-59 to me. I carried an M-16A1 for 7 years and even though I qualified expert each year, I did not like my Mattell Toy, even equipped with a 203 launcher. Would've rather had a M-1 carbine or M1-A/M14. BTW, I hear that Kel-Tec I coming out with a .308 version of their SU rifle. Might just fit the bill!

[knightRider]

Masada Masada Masada

[Reddbecca]

Whatever design we go with, let's make sure that there's a civilian version for us too.

[knightRider]

masada will have a civilian version , i will own one this summer as soon as thier availabile for the masses !

[rick343]

The M-14 is the battle rifle of the Navy Seals because it has the punch and accuracy to knock ochmed's di@k in the dirt. I carried one when I was in the Corps and loved it. The stock was the only promlem we had, they were weak at the small portion of the grip. Never had a malfunction. I always said it you took an M-1 and put a magazine feed, that would pe the perfect rifle.

___________________________
I'm your huckleberry

[Don357]

hey I did some research and I've found the rifle that'll make everybody happy. New from Kel-Tec, it's called a RFB. You'll have to check the site for the particulars but Its a forward ejecting, .308win, bulpup, in 16", 18" and 23 or 24" barrel configuration.

[meatloaf]

Thats nice tooo! I still have my sights on MASADA. Gave my dealer 200 to put down on his first order.

[knightRider]

Originally Posted by meatloaf

Thats nice tooo! I still have my sights on MASADA. Gave my dealer 200 to put down on his first order.

thats cool , when did he say they would release?

[Don357]

As I said before, for those bullpup fans who desire a larger caliber,( BTW, I am not a sales rep and don't particularly care for bullpup rifles) you need to checkout the downloadable PDF and Media files on the 2007 Shot Show debut of the RFB ( Rifle Forward ejecting Bullpup) at the Kel-Tec website. This looks like the future of urban warfare weapons, with extreme long range capability. Imagine a 32" barrel .308win with 2800fps+.

[175rltw]

M-4's are adequate to the task. period. ammo isn't. We often use black hills 68grn match. a VERY big improvement over the green tip. but the green tip kills people too. All the bull pup people are nuts, ergonomics is a BIG deal- and those ergonomics don't facilitate quick mag changes etc. you fly around or drive around getting dust all over your m4 and if it's oiled up it works. I really like the scars, but the reality is that the army is trained on a weapon system and retraining joe truck driver and the fuel supply specialists etc doesn't make sense, so fielding a weapon that functions differently and has different ergonomics is more than just a money issue. I'd like to go thru a shoothouse with my team and m4's vs a team of whoever and bull pups or 7.62 fans or whoever and do some el presidente style stress shoots as well just to see the results...

[meatloaf]

Originally Posted by knightRider

thats cool , when did he say they would release?

I actualy informed him, (not that he doesnt know about the rifle)Magpul says early summer. Which is ok for me, I'l be able to save up enough to pay for it completely by then. Not that I know what the price is going to be yet, neither does Magpul. All I know is I want one.

Originally Posted by 175rltw

M-4's are adequate to the task. period. ammo isn't. We often use black hills 68grn match. a VERY big improvement over the green tip. but the green tip kills people too. All the bull pup people are nuts, ergonomics is a BIG deal- and those ergonomics don't facilitate quick mag changes etc. you fly around or drive around getting dust all over your m4 and if it's oiled up it works. I really like the scars, but the reality is that the army is trained on a weapon system and retraining joe truck driver and the fuel supply specialists etc doesn't make sense, so fielding a weapon that functions differently and has different ergonomics is more than just a money issue. I'd like to go thru a shoothouse with my team and m4's vs a team of whoever and bull pups or 7.62 fans or whoever and do some el presidente style stress shoots as well just to see the results...

That would be cool to see. I wouldnt want to change something that works. However what do you do if your m4 isnt lubed, and you dont have the ability to keep it properly maintained? ie. long term sustained combat like some of the battles in vietnom. Were not fighting in the swamps or rainforests right now but that doesnt mean we wont ever be back in that kind of war again. All the old vets I know said they through away their m16 as soon as they could get their hands on an AK. Or they had their parents ship them out a pump action shotgun. I vote for the masada because it encompuses (supposedly) the accuracy of an m4 and the reliability of an AK. If there is something better out there wouldnt you want our soldiers to have it? Also the cost of retraining is an exscuse for the beurocrats.

[175rltw]

It's called PCI's and PCC's I'm not going out without a can of breakfree, the boys will all have the same or comparable- and I'll inspect each of them, after they've checked each other- and if I'm in such a firefight that I'm in danger of my weapon not functioning- CAS is on my mind- and speedballs of ammo- and i can find time to give the bolt carrier another squirt of lube, in that event. Alot of it comes down to personal soldier discipline in the end- and having team leaders and squad leaders enforce those standards and provide that example. There are LOTS of people serving who have things other than weapons maintnence on there mind- like when they get to use the phone or check email- and there are lots of people griping about poor performance of both system and cartridge - who never left the wire, not sure why they get creedence... just my 2 cents

[175rltw]

I don't roll without a can of breakfree, and I make sure my boys are all similarly equipped. They check each other and I check them as well. That is personal soldier discipline. At any rate, I'll hose it down before I go- and if I'm shooting so much that my weapon is starting to malfunction, I'm more worried about getting more ammo, cuz I'm about out- and where the hell is my air- at any rate, a lot of folks who haven't been in a shootout - much less a prolonged engagement are coming back with HORROR STORIES about M-4 failure, both the weapon and the ammo...and people are giving them alot more creedence than they should. I'm not the biggest fan of it, but it well and truly works, and care of equipment is part of the deal. If you are in theater, and NOT taking care of your gat- you need a new job, because you suck at that one. I've shot plenty of AK's that you could remove the dust cover and poor in sand and then start ripping off rounds- but you couldn't hit with them. Why do you think so few of us get shot?? poor shooters with poor weapons.

[meatloaf]

Hey 175 I dont mean any disrespect. I hope and prey what the goverment arms you boys with works. I just want the best for our boys and girls fighting for freedom. If some one could take the best out of every rifle and put it in to one to make the ultimate fighting weapon then I would want you guys to have it, thats all I am saying. By the way for the MASADA rifle dreamers I heard today Magpul sold the Masada rifle to bushmaster. So who knows when it will be produced. In the mean time I put my money torwards a new hunting rifle.

[BattleRifleG3]

Where did you hear that about Bushmaster buying up the Masada? If it was at a gun shop or gun show I wouldn't believe it.

Edit:

DANGET!
Bushmaster and Magpul Team to Bring Advanced Rifle to Market

[meatloaf]

Originally Posted by BattleRifleG3

Where did you hear that about Bushmaster buying up the Masada? If it was at a gun shop or gun show I wouldn't believe it.

Edit:

DANGET!
Bushmaster and Magpul Team to Bring Advanced Rifle to Market

I heard it from my dealer I guess I should call them tommorrow to find out from them. I have started to beleive my dealer on what he says because I havn't been able to prove him wrong yet. I will check, maybe who ever told him are wrong.

[tlarkin]

here go some thoughts sorry for repeats

use lightweight durable materials, carbon fibers and other alloy plastics that are very strong and durable

caseless ammo, means for a simpler design, no jams, and can probably fire at a faster rate

Caseless ammo also would not require the chamber to ever be open since the whole case would fire. Thus not allowing dirt or sand into the chamber as easily

Stock can compact for ease of carry


Possibly have rear loading like the metal storm guns that are out, which could highly reduce the size of the magazine allowing the user of the rifle to carry more and not be as encumbered.

Anything that was battery powered like a scope or a sight should have the ability to charge the battery by sunlight, or by perhaps a small crank device. Then no need to carry around a ton of batteries

Redesigned trigger safetys, with a nice slide switch for single, burst, full auto

Modular, make everything modular, and the ability to add whatever hardware you need whenever you need in the field if need be. Make things easily snap on and off, because a scope, a flash light, a laser sight or whatever can be a hindering in some situations. If you could grab a scope out of your pack, or say a easy access pocket and snap it in place in a matter of seconds, there would be no wasted time.

Digital round display. Know exactly how much ammo is in your gun at all times. While we are at it a small thermostat. They build them for computers that measure the temperature of your CPU, so they are tiny and very light weight. Know what temperature your gun is operating at.


Fully adjustable sight system, this goes back to being modular. The ability to snap on and off many different sets of wind sights or whatever you need.

Adjustable chamber with interchangeable barrels, again goes back to being modular. For ranges and calibers of ammo. All ammo is caseless.

You design it to fire a variety of calibers and a be a variety of sizes with a variety of attachments and then make it easy enough and light weight enough it can be adjusted according to what you need in the field you may have an all in one rifle.