.308 or 7.62X51mm

[Pumpkinheaver]

Originally Posted by utahvarminter

Savage 10FP!!

Good choice!

[mitch_mckee]

Originally Posted by twisterx44

I believe you. Look, I know my rifle is well capable of 300+, but thats not what i am using it for. I want to shoot 300+, but with a bolt action and a larger round than a .223

Good luck then. I hope you find something that you like. If the economy in your area is getting a bit shakey, people tend to sell their guns rather than miss car payments. Well, at least here in E. Tennessee. Check out the pawn shops and used rack at gun shops. Most people at least try to take good care of their guns so one can often do well, especially this time of year (post hunting season).

Look for the name brands, Ruger, CZ, Winchester, Savage, Remington, in about any of the common .30 calibers, .30-06, .308, .300 Magnum, et al.

If you are knowledgable and flexible enough, you can get your gun.

[twisterx44]

thanks mitch, I'll do that. places like GI-joes sell milsurp rifles for under 300...my friend bought his Kar98k for like 289 or something...too bad a box of 8mm around here is like 30.00!

What would be the best choice for a milsurp? Mosin? Mauser? Enfield?

[mitch_mckee]

Originally Posted by twisterx44

thanks mitch, I'll do that. places like GI-joes sell milsurp rifles for under 300...my friend bought his Kar98k for like 289 or something...too bad a box of 8mm around here is like 30.00!

What would be the best choice for a milsurp? Mosin? Mauser? Enfield?

I only have experience with Garand, M1 Carbine, Enfield, SKS, and AK in mil surp. They run from primo to just awful. If you go the Milsurp route, get good advice.

Enfield was a good gun. I let one go for $80.00 that would shoot about 2 moa all day!

If you can find a good one, that would be a good choice. Reloading would be mandantory. Besides, I believe that reloading makes you a better shooter. There is just something about rolling your own that appeals to the caveman in me. Besides, once you get set up, ammo will cost about $30.00 per hundred.

Then, when you can gather more riches accumulated, you can get that Remington Custom. Until then, you are pretty well covered.

[twisterx44]

Haha mitch, reloading is not ideal for me; I am 18 and finishing up my last year of highschool, and after the summer will be away in college. Think of what my roomates would say!

"My weirdo roomate just makes bullets all day..."

Reloading is expensive to start up, but cheap in the long run, i know, but it will have to wait until i have the space, time, and money to set it up.

Your saying I couldnt shoot box ammo out of a milsurp?

[mitch_mckee]

Sure, but it would be more expensive expensive.

I can reload rifle ammo on the kitchen table while watching reruns of "Stargate". Doesn't take much room. Lee Loaders sells a kit that includes every tool that you need to reload one caliber. You add a hammer, powder, primers, and slugs. that's about another $100.00.

The other option is $20.00 plus for 20 shots.

Were it I, I'd put my money into the AR.

[twisterx44]

Originally Posted by mitch_mckee

Were it I, I'd put my money into the AR.

What do you mean?


I just got an idea, spurred off of one of mitch's suggestions. what if i bought

Rock River Arms: Standard Upper Half

and

Rock River Arms: Versa-Pod Bipods

and then when i wanted to do target shooting just swapped out the upper reciever? would it look funny with the 20in barrell and 6point collapsable stock?

If so I could also get

http://http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id= 296

[mitch_mckee]

Originally Posted by twisterx44

What do you mean?

That you already have a good rifle. At 18, I'd just about have given my right testical for that rifle.

For 300 yd shots, your 5.56 is more than adequate for any critter up to 400 lbs. even at 300 yds range.

I guess I mean that, given your cash limitations, I'd put a scope on the AR before anything else. That's all you need to get to reliable 300 yd shots.

[twisterx44]

I just about DID give my right testicle. I worked my ass off to afford it and spent months trying to find a place to keep it since my parents didn't want it in the house. Trust me, I'm not spoiled, Ive wanted that rifle since i was 14, and worked my ass off to make it happen.

What do you think about getting the 20in barrel? Unnecassary? Can i really just slap a scope on and shoot 1000 feet with the 16inch? I'd feel more comfortable shooting that far with a solid buttstock and 20in barrel. What do you think?

[mitch_mckee]

Again, i am not an AR expert but 1,000 feet is no big stretch.

[twisterx44]

alright...ill post a new thread in the AR section...thanks for your help everyone!

[Big Tool]

If you are looking at the surplus rifles definitely take a moment to look at the swiss k31's. The can be bought for about 200.00. The wood usually looks like crap, but that can be fixed very easily. The rifles shoot a 7.5x55 round of ammuntion which can be bought for .50 a round and is similar to the 308.

The rifles are simply fantastic. I have 3 and just bought another one. They have a straight pull bolt which you simply pull straight back and push forward. They cycle way faster than a regular bolt action rifle, and they are also very accurate rifles. Most are able to shoot 1" groups at 100yards, and i've heard several that were sub moa.

This website has some pretty good info on the k31 and many other rifles for that matter. Its some very interesting reading on there. Educational Zone #37 - Scoping a K-31 - Page 2

You could spend about 200 on the gun, 150 on a decent scope, and about 70 on the scope mount and you would have a very nice rifle that will outshoot just about anything you can buy on for under a grand. Not to mention it's a heck of a conversation piece.

here's one of mine. That i cleaned up a bit.

[Lizard]

In Savage, you have a Savage 11 with scope for just barely under $500, Savage 11 11FXP3 Hunter .308 Win 3-9x40mm Scope for Sale at Buds Gun Shop

Or a long, heavy barrelled varmint gun in the Savage 12 with no scope for just over $500,
Savage 12 12FV Varminter .308 Winchester for Sale at Buds Gun Shop


or you can go with the Savage-Stevens for just under $300,
Savage-Stevens 17748 200 308 for Sale at Buds Gun Shop
spend $200 on a scope and have a decent rifle and good scope. Then you can add changes to the rifle as you get cash. I have several Stevens and am very happy with them.

Go to the Savage website to get information on their rifles:
Welcome to Savage Arms

Remington has a $500 700 SPS,
Remington 700 SPS 308 for Sale at Buds Gun Shop

but if I was buying Remington, I'd go with the $528, 26" heavy barrel varmint model in the 700 SPS:
REM 84218 700 SP SYN VAR 308 26 for Sale at Buds Gun Shop

These are new .308's and are probably the best values you're likely to find for a new one. Although, some big stores run limited specials and if you run in with cash, you can get a really good buy.

[petemi]

I've got a .308 Ruger M77 MKII with a "cheap" 150.00 Bushnell scope on it and it is a tack driver well past 300 yards. I traded in a Rem. Model 7 for it, and don't remember what the retail came to at the time, but it was affordable.

[SwedeSteve]

Look into a Swedish Mauser M38, or a Swiss K-31. Either wil give you all the accuracy you want. Another suggestion would be to hit the pawn shops and look for a reasonable .308 or 30-06.

[twisterx44]

Hmm...well I was considering just buying a 20inch NM upper for my AR, but i would prefer having two seperate firearms. I checked out all the rifles suggseted here, and now I'm stuck between a Swiss k-31 and the Remintgon 700SPS...

Thanks for the info, time to do some serious research now. I'm not very good at gunsmithing in any sort, so I'd prefer a good out of the box condition. I don't want to have to fix up the wood stock of a K31, so perhaps they aren't for me. On the other hand, the remington is 500 without a scope...what type/make/model of a scope would be suitable for 100-400yd shooting?

[oldjarhead]

Marlin Firearms
O.F. Mossberg & Sons, Inc
Savage Arms

Check out these makers. You don't have to buy used and you won't have to super dress them to make them accurate. The rifle is important as is the scope you mount but it is the shooters skill that will make it or break it. The average shooter will shoot 500 yards or less...usually less (300 yards on average) unless you shoot competition which you don't indicate as your intentions.
Decide on your make and model and then shop around for the best price. You may have to go up to about $600 for the rifle but keep in mind that it is a long term investment.
I have a Savage 10FP scoped with a Mueller 8-24x44AO (similiar to what Billy has on his 10FP but without a couple bells). Rifle $555, scope $160, Bi-pod $49. I did replace the synthetic stock with a laminated thumbhole stock but that isn't necessary, I just wanted it set that way.
Even good quality used .308's will most likely run a little over $500 but like I said, it's a long term investment that will most likely increase in value. Example, I bought a used Remington 600 in .308 about 8 years ago...it has doubled in value and will run in the range of $600-$650 so don't be locked into a set price...be a little flexible but stay within a reasonable budget also.
I've been told that OR/WA have reciprocal agreements for the purchase of longarms so don't forget to check out WA dealers as well. I know S&M in Eugene is pretty much over-priced.
Good Luck

[Big Tool]

Originally Posted by twisterx44

Hmm...well I was considering just buying a 20inch NM upper for my AR, but i would prefer having two seperate firearms. I checked out all the rifles suggseted here, and now I'm stuck between a Swiss k-31 and the Remintgon 700SPS...

Thanks for the info, time to do some serious research now. I'm not very good at gunsmithing in any sort, so I'd prefer a good out of the box condition. I don't want to have to fix up the wood stock of a K31, so perhaps they aren't for me. On the other hand, the remington is 500 without a scope...what type/make/model of a scope would be suitable for 100-400yd shooting?

A swiss k31 compared to a remington 700 is pretty much apple to oranges comparison as you can get. I have both and they both shoot great, but honestly the k31 is a much better rifle imo.
Depending on what you want to do with it. If you plan on hunting "which i don't think you do, the remington will be better, because it will be lighter and more manueverable. But if you plan on taking it to the range and doing some weekend paper punching the k-31 will be 10x more enjoyable.
The k-31 has a much better trigger than the remington's i have, and also the swiss surplus ammo is cheap and very high quality, so you can actually afford to practice over and over to become more proficient with the long range shooting.
Refinishing the wood is a breeze. You only have to remove 4 screw to disassemble the rifle. The actual refinishing process is very easy, it just takes alittle time, but once you finish the stock you will have a greater understanding of the rifle and a sense of accomplishment.
If you do get a k31 I would suggest getting one with a walnut stock. classicarms.us has them for 200.00.

Both rifles will do what you want them to, choice is up to you.

[twisterx44]

No hunting, just paper punching for now =)

I think I like the idea of iron sights anyway. How hard is it to mount a scope on a K31?

Does the K31 have a traditional bolt action style? it looks different in the pictures posted here.

Big Tool, could you elaborate on the actual refinishing process? They sell K31's at places like GI Joes around here, I'm gonna give them a call sometime tomorrow and see what they have in stock.

If I order one off the internet, does it need to be shipped to an FFL?

Update:
Called a Big 5 and a Joe's (both sporting goods stores around here) and the only milsurp rifles either had were M44s, 91/30s, and K98s

My friend has a K98, it's a blast to shoot but the ammo is very very expensive. Do you think i should wait around for a K31? I asked both retailers how often they get the K31 and both said almost never

Are the Nagants ok? I've heard stories about squeeky or wobbly sight posts and such...

[Big Tool]

Originally Posted by twisterx44

No hunting, just paper punching for now =)

I think I like the idea of iron sights anyway. How hard is it to mount a scope on a K31?

Does the K31 have a traditional bolt action style? it looks different in the pictures posted here.

Big Tool, could you elaborate on the actual refinishing process? They sell K31's at places like GI Joes around here, I'm gonna give them a call sometime tomorrow and see what they have in stock.

If I order one off the internet, does it need to be shipped to an FFL?

Update:
Called a Big 5 and a Joe's (both sporting goods stores around here) and the only milsurp rifles either had were M44s, 91/30s, and K98s

My friend has a K98, it's a blast to shoot but the ammo is very very expensive. Do you think i should wait around for a K31? I asked both retailers how often they get the K31 and both said almost never

Are the Nagants ok? I've heard stories about squeeky or wobbly sight posts and such...

The K98 rifles are nice but are more expensive than the k31, and are not nearly as good a quality rifle imo. Most i've handled the triggers were not that smooth, and the build quality wasn't as good as the k-31.

Also the k98 has the common mauser bolt action that is identical to just about every other bolt action rifle you go and buy now days. The common bolt rifles you have to turn the bolt handle up then pull back, then push forward, then turn the handle down. The K-31 rifle you just pull the bolt handle straight back without turning anything which ejects the shell then you push the handle forward which chambers another round. It is very fast and smooth when shooting. The only other rifles other than the swiss that i have seen with a similar are the Blaser rifles which start at about 4,000.

The Mosins seem to have a very big following, they are said to be indestructible and are dirt cheap to buy, but to me every one i've seen seems very roughly built. They look and feel like something i would expect to come out of russia "ak".

The shipping thing is a breeze. I was nervous about it the first time i did it, but it's a very simple process. All you need to do is go speak to your local gun dealer and tell them you are buying a gun from an online vendor and you would like them to handle the transaction. You give them the name and fax number of the online vendor you choose to buy from and they will fax their information to the online vendor. You then call up the online vendor and tell them what you want and they will ship it to your dealer within about a week. The dealer will charge you anywhere from 10-30.00 for the transfer and most online vendors will charge about 15-20 to ship the rifle.

If you do choose to buy a k31 from an online dealer i highly higly recommend classicarms.us They are one of the few people who still have them and the prices are good, and the customer service is A+++, they also ship very fast and have the walnut stock k31's which are getting harder to find.

To refinish the rifle first you remove the stock from the rifle. to do so you remove the two bands that go around the barrel, then unscrew two other screw that are near the magazine well. When you remove those screw the barrel and reciever and will all come apart from the stock.

If the stock is beat up it is probably a good idea to steam out some of the dents. to do this you simply take an old t-shirt and an a clothes iron. Get the shirt wet then lay the shirt on top of the stock. Then you take the iron and put it on top of the shirt on the stock. The steam will do a great job of bringing out the dents in the wood.

The next step would be to sand the rifle. Regardless what some purist say mos k-31 rifles are not in collector condition and sanding the stock probably isn't going to devalue the gun later on. Before you start sanding you can rub down the stock with some denatured alchol which will strip off some of the old finish. I then use a small electric sander with some 200grit sandpaper at first to get the old finish off and smooth out most the dings . You want to be careful and not alter the actual shape of the stock so just do it rather lightly. I'll spend a couple hours going over everything until i get it just right. I then will put some 400grit sandpaper on the sander and go over it lightly which makes the wood smoother. After that i will take some 400 or higher grit sandpaper and finish it up by hand to smooth every thing.

Next step is to wipe the stock off and get all the sawdust off of it. I will use some mineral spirits "hardware store" pour it on a rag and wipe the stock down to clean it all up. Then i will let it dry for a while. Once it is dry i will then take some Birchwood Casey's tru oil and just wipe it on the stock. The tru oil is good stuff imo and dries fast. Let it dry for about 4-5 hours and check on it. Once the first coat is dry you then take some 0000 steel or brass wool and gently rub the finish with it. That will smooth out the finish between coats so that you get a glass like smoothness. After going over it with steel wool you can then apply another coat of the tru oil. You keep repeating the process until you get the desired finish. For me 3 coats is enough, but some people do more.

Once you get the stock done all you do is put it back together the way you took it apart. It's amazing how well the wood is made on these rifles, the build tolerances are very tight but the parts just fall into place.

Once that is done you will have a rifle that not only looks better but it feels better to the touch also. prior to refinishing mine the wood had a rough beat up feeling, now it is very smooth and just feels better to the touch. If you wanted to make the rifle look brand new you could also have the metal reblued by a gunsmith which cost about 150 bucks but that can be done later on down the road or not at all. I don't really see a need to reblue any of mine.

I haven't mouted a scope to mine yet but everthing i've read said the mounts avilable are extremely easy to install and are of very good quality. Even with open sights you should still be able to punch paper at 300 yards with some practice. which is another advantage of the k31 vs. most other rifles that dont even come with iron sights.