What is the big deal with Mosins?

[billy]

i try to like all guns (no really!) but some just dont pull my trigger.
sometimes i will bait my friends here with a smart alecky wisecrack.
but otherwise i just leave it alone.

i guess what i am trying to say is...


teasing and getting ugly are two different things.

[samuel]

Originally Posted by billy

i try to like all guns (no really!) but some just dont pull my trigger.
sometimes i will bait my friends here with a smart alecky wisecrack.
but otherwise i just leave it alone.

i guess what i am trying to say is...


teasing and getting ugly are two different things.

Everyone teases me so I have no lack of attention that way,and as to ugly,I was born that way,it puts me in the group called 'the ugly American',a class of their own.Just teasing and admitting 'ugly'.I like Mosins,I even like people that own Mosins. sam.

[.280Rem]

Originally Posted by MosinDave

This entire post, along with all of your previous replies in this thread are incredibly passive aggressive, and I would even wager that you are just trolling.

Nothing passive agressive about any of my posts. They've been pointed and stated exactly how I feel and think. Not trolling. The OP asked for opinions, I gave one that's not popular with some.

Originally Posted by MosinDave

We are all entitled to our opinions, but you need some work on your delivery if you want to become respected here, or on any BBS for that matter. ( if that matters to you... you did take the time to reply to so many posts so I am assuming that you might... ) No one here is taking offense to you not liking Mosin Nagants. We are getting offended at your lack of respect for our forum, and your piss poor attitude toward our members.

Yep, I'm entitled to my opinion, and if asked directly or by open post, I'll give it. I won't shape it or bend it to make anybody happy either. I didn't directly address any one individual here, or call anybody names. I gave my opinion that by my tastes, Mosin Nagants, are mass produced, rougly made, Russian Military POS. I still feel that way. History has bourne out that the Russians never made high quality in any of the're military equipment, but they did make it tough, cheaply, and functional. I've seen posts on other BBS that said the same type things about my beloved M700, and it never even dawned on me become personally offended, or to call names, or threaten the poster. I might try to tell them why I like the M700, but they can call it a POS all day long if they wish. I haven't a clue why I should be offended by them thinking it or saying it that way. Again, you're getting offended by me stating in no uncertain terms, and not sugar coating why I hate MN's, AKs, SKS, and the like.

Originally Posted by MosinDave

You couldn't even give a legitimate answer to a legitimate question that was asked of you.

I apparently didn't see the question you're talking about, and will be glad to answer it if you'll point it out to me.

Originally Posted by MosinDave

Also, another point. This is the friendliest gun forum on the net.

Yeah, so long as you don't give an opinion that someone doesn't like.

Originally Posted by MosinDave

Find another that would have put up with your trolling for this long. I rest my case.

Shape up or ship out.

Unless this is your internet site, and you have some say in who posts, and what they post, I'll stay as long as I wish, and post according to the rules. I post on other BBS. Most don't tolerate the whining of "you don't have to be so rude when you say you don't like my stuff." If someone thinks you're running an ugly or flawed rig, they'll tell you flat out. If you don't like what I have to say, or how I say it, there's an ignore feature. I'll tell you this: You won't see me doing what others here have done to me in this thread, like threatening me with "you mouth is writing checks your butt can't cash" or calling me a fool. Those that resort to such don't appear to be very tolerant of differing opinions, and not "friendly". Who are you to tell me to shape up or ship out?

[Mooseman684]

The Thread Had "Mosins" in the title in General rifle...SO you knew it was a Mosin Question, Flaming and trolling in any thread is Unnacceptable,and since you state above that you knew what the response to your reply would be makes you a Troll and Flaming to incite an argument...when you said that you state your opinion and you KNEW it would bring Fire and you didn't care and you don't "Give a flying rip about MN owners" do you think we were gonna offer you tea and Cookies ???
Don't try to justify trolling with the "My opinion" statement...It doesn't fly here at all !
Sure, they werent designed as hunting rifles , but by your own admission, they are reliable shooters. Mausers were Military rifles , yet More of them were sporterized and turned into hunting rifles because of having tough, battle tested actions...
Your Remington is smaller than My Mosins as is your bore diameter, so it is not a schoolgirl argument..it is fact!
By your own admission you aren't an avid shooter like some of us are and we like shooting our rifles a lot...it is our money and our guns...we don't care how you get your Jollies , as long as you don't try to start an argument on this forum...
Paper nailed it...it is how you post that you get the response you get...It is how to remain friendly or get a butt chewing .
For Instance, if you post about your beloved .280 and I jumped on you about it being a crappy cartridge and you must be a wimp for shooting it and not a 7MM mag or a .300 Mag or Remington 700 are POS Rifles because that is my "Opinion" would that make it right ??? NOT HARDLY! It would be an unjustified statement and none of my business what caliber you shoot !
It would be trying to Incite you into an argument...Trolling and Flaming !
Do you get the picture Yet ???

[Cyrano]

In an attempt to return the civility Moose is attempting to restore, can we talk technical for a minute here?

I admit that part of the reason I like military surplus rifles is due to low ammo cost and ready availability. But although they aren't what turns me on, I would like to know, just so I do know, exactly how the .280 and .270 civilian hunting rounds compare to the good old .30-06, the 6.5mm rounds used in the Arisaka, the Carcano and the 1896 Swedish Mauser, the .303 British, the 8mm Mauser (which I understand is actually 7.92mm), the 7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester, and the 7.62x54R round used by the Mosin Nagant. I'd prefer it with simple words, a lineup of the cartridges, and a table with the bullet weights, weight of powder charge, FPS at the muzzle, 100 meters and 500 meters, effective range with iron sights and foot-pounds of energy delivered at various ranges.

I am not trying to play "can you top this" with the Mosin Nagant as opposed to a .280 Remington custom hunting/target rifle. But I would like the information to help me refine a thought game I've been playing with friends, including some on this forum.

I'm convinced the US Army urgently needs a better rifle than the M-16 family, and better than the AK-47 family the Army and Marines will be facing for the foreseeable future. One point we often argue is what should our Zen battle rifle be chambered for. We all agree the 5.56 NATO round is not on the table because of its short range. We've agreed to exclude the 7.62x39 ComBloc cartridge. Some of the particiapnts think that the 7.62 NATO cartridge is too heavy (in terms of weight/number of rounds a trooper can carry) for the job. I've been arguing that as we already have that cartridge in production, why reinvent the wheel? But if there is a round out there that will give as good performance as the .30-06 that we all are using as our touchstone, I want to know what it is. The cost of tooling up to produce, say, the .280 Remington in the quantities an army requires is by my way of thinking cheaper than the cost of one serviceman's life. .280Rem seems knowledgable about his cartridge, and I know Moose, billy, Scotty, Swede, cetmedog and many other members are equally learned in cartridges they prefer.

When I feel the thought game has produced a Zen rifle worthy of our soldiers, I intend to send the information off to Congressmen and Senators who may be able to do something with it, to get our troops better rifles. Can we all put aside our bitching and snarling long enough to do something that is more constructive, maybe?

[.280Rem]

"Ok. I have only been on this board for a few months but I already know I am going to get hammered on this question but I just have to know: What on earth is the big deal about Mosin Nagants? Most of the guys here are absolutely crazy about them but I don't get it. Now, I have only seen one at Bass Pro and I heard them mention one on Enemy at the Gates, but other than that.....I never hear about them.

Somebody please fill me in!!!

(Did I just open a can of worms?)"


I've never understood some American's fascination with "Black Rifles" such as the M-16/AR's for field work and customizing, but do get it if they use them in competition. I have held and shot them in the military. They are what they are, they do their job when properly applied, but they hold no fascination for me.

Take that failure to understand, and increase it 10x when I see those that desire any AK/SKS, or Mosin. FOR ANY APPLICATION. Cheap, bulk made, Russian Military crap. Tough? No doubt! Reliable? They were made to be! Cheap? Yep, and there's a reason! If you love them or "black rifles" it's your right to own and use one, but don't try to sell me that I'll love them because they're "cheap" and "reliable". My Rem 700 is cheap enough, and very reliable. I'll take it. If I want cheaper, I'll go with a Tikka T-3 Lite.

And I freely admit that my perception of these Russian POS's is skewed by the fact that EVERY time I've seen on at the range it was being toted by some guy that is always wearing some form of BDU, if not fully decked out in BDUs, usually with multiple tattoos, smoking Camels, driving a beat up P/U, and slinging lead down range as fast as he can pull the trigger while raining brass on anybody near by then commenting on the "firepower" or how they deer hunt with it because it gives them quick second, third, and fourth shots.

Now that ought to open up a can of worms!

Originally Posted by Mooseman684

The Thread Had "Mosins" in the title in General rifle...SO you knew it was a Mosin Question, Flaming and trolling in any thread is Unnacceptable,and since you state above that you knew what the response to your reply would be makes you a Troll and Flaming to incite an argument...when you said that you state your opinion and you KNEW it would bring Fire and you didn't care and you don't "Give a flying rip about MN owners" do you think we were gonna offer you tea and Cookies ???

Moose, the above is the original poster's question, and my original reply. I stated my opinion strongly, but alas, I don't know any other way to sum up my thoughts on Russian Military surplus rifles. If you can tell me how to call something a POS without calling it that...I'll listen. I did state some facts and personal observations, none of which was directed at anyone on this board, but none the less, they are actual observations and facts. If you're suggesting that because I see "Mosin" in the title of a thread that I should refrain from comment because I have nothing good to say about them, then that's silly. Only positive opinions are allowed here? The guy didn't come asking for praise of the MN's, he asked "What's the big deal?" I concur, with all I've been hit with in this thread, I still say "What's the big deal?" I simply gave him an opinion for which he asked. Yeah, the OP knew merely asking such a question would open a can of worms, and I concurred with him.

Originally Posted by Mooseman684

Don't try to justify trolling with the "My opinion" statement...It doesn't fly here at all !

Trolling would be making a contrary statement solely for the sake of argument. Stating an opinion when asked, knowing that it might not be popular, is far different from trolling.

Originally Posted by Mooseman684

Sure, they werent designed as hunting rifles , but by your own admission, they are reliable shooters. Mausers were Military rifles , yet More of them were sporterized and turned into hunting rifles because of having tough, battle tested actions...

Can't disagree with any of that. There ought to be a clue in there for you about the differing quality of Mausers vs. Mosin's, which lends support to my "They're Russian made crap" assertion. They do what they do well, but they were not designed or built with high quality standards in mind.

Originally Posted by Mooseman684

Your Remington is smaller than My Mosins as is your bore diameter, so it is not a schoolgirl argument..it is fact!

Ok big guy! Whatever you say.

Originally Posted by Mooseman684

By your own admission you aren't an avid shooter like some of us are and we like shooting our rifles a lot

No, by my own admission I don't stand and sling 100s of rounds down range just to hear the gun go bang or watch the dirt fly down range. That, my friend, doesn't mean I'm not an avid shooter.

Originally Posted by Mooseman684

...it is our money and our guns...we don't care how you get your Jollies , as long as you don't try to start an argument on this forum...

You're right, and I'd never expect you to shoot anything you weren't happy with. As for trying to start an argument. I didn't have to try at all. I did give a solicited opinion, and yeah, I knew it wouldn't be popular. Still the question was asked, and I answered.

Originally Posted by Mooseman684

Paper nailed it...it is how you post that you get the response you get...It is how to remain friendly or get a butt chewing .

I'll try to work on my delivery when I state an unpopular opinion. Fair enough?

Originally Posted by Mooseman684

For Instance, if you post about your beloved .280 and I jumped on you about it being a crappy cartridge and you must be a wimp for shooting it and not a 7MM mag or a .300 Mag or Remington 700 are POS Rifles because that is my "Opinion" would that make it right ??? NOT HARDLY! It would be an unjustified statement and none of my business what caliber you shoot !
It would be trying to Incite you into an argument...Trolling and Flaming !
Do you get the picture Yet ???

If you just randomly stated such things to me directly without being asked, yeah you'd be trolling and flaming. If, on the other hand, I or someone asked your opinion about Remmy's or .280s and you gave such an answer, it would be answering the question with your honest, unvarnished opinion. I wouldn't take it personally. Except for the "wimp" part which is designed to get personal. I never got personal with any particular poster in my original post, I simply stated an opinion which was not unsolicited.

Do YOU get the picture yet?

Let me help you out. Up there in "Military Firearms" there are many sub boards. You wont find me on any of them. Why? Id be going in to a place where I know people that like those things are, and with my opinion about them Id be trolling. However, if someone comes down here and solicits multiple opinions on whatever, and I have an opinion, I'll give it. And I wont sugar coat it. I wont make it personal, but I wont sugar coat it. Are we clear on the differences in trolling and flaming and giving a solicited opinion? You come on here and post a pic of your beloved Mosin, and ask what we think, I wont even comment then, because obviously you like them and just want a little praise. But, if you honestly don't know, and honestly solicit opinions on them, I may comment. If you're a Mosin lover, you wont like what I have to say, but what I had to say was directed at the OP's question, not anyone else in particular.

[Paper]

Originally Posted by .280Rem

I'll try to work on my delivery when I state an unpopular opinion. Fair enough?

Absolutely.

[.280Rem]

Originally Posted by Cyrano

In an attempt to return the civility Moose is attempting to restore, can we talk technical for a minute here?

I admit that part of the reason I like military surplus rifles is due to low ammo cost and ready availability. But although they aren't what turns me on, I would like to know, just so I do know, exactly how the .280 and .270 civilian hunting rounds compare to the good old .30-06, the 6.5mm rounds used in the Arisaka, the Carcano and the 1896 Swedish Mauser, the .303 British, the 8mm Mauser (which I understand is actually 7.92mm), the 7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester, and the 7.62x54R round used by the Mosin Nagant. I'd prefer it with simple words, a lineup of the cartridges, and a table with the bullet weights, weight of powder charge, FPS at the muzzle, 100 meters and 500 meters, effective range with iron sights and foot-pounds of energy delivered at various ranges.

I'm not going to provide all the numbers. It would get lengthy. I'll try to make the comparison as close to apples to apples as I can. 7.62x54 and the .308 (which is 7.62x51) are almost identical in ballistics. Factory ammo by Wolfe for instance is 148gr at @2800fps for the 7.62x54 and 150gr at @ 2800 for the .308. As I understand it the 148gr is the "standard". I saw some 200gr too, but didn't see the velocity. I don't know what else is offered for the x54, but suspect its between 150 and 200grs just like for the .308. The powder capacity is nearly identical, so the performance will be nearly identical. I can't say how the surplus MN's would hold up to reloading, but the velocity of the factory ammo suggest the actions are strong. To compare, the .270, the .280, and the 30-06 all offer factory ammo in 150grs and all will be running 2800-2900fps. Remington factory 150s in my .280 run 2850. Handloaded with slower burning powders each can run up to @3000fps with 150s. Obviously the sleeker bullets of the .280 and .270 will give a slight ballistic edge with like wt bullets compared to the .308, but I don't know that it would make any practical difference. The .270 and .280 have lighter bullets, 130gr and 140gr that can be pushed up to 3100-3150fps, and will shoot a tad flatter, and the 140 is my choice in the .280Rem running around 3100fps. The .308 class of bullets run wts of 130-240grs. Most factory offerings will be 150s,165s,180s, and 200s. The 30-06, in my opinion shines with 165s handloaded running around 2850-2900, offering the best balance of bullet wt and velocity. 180s will run around2700 with factory fodder and up to 2750-2800 handloaded. It's with the 180s and the 200gr bullets that the 30-06 will show "significant" advantage over the .308 or 7.62x54, but "significant" would be debatable I guess because we're talking only 200fps greater velocity for the 30-06, or less than 10% difference. Any of that "difference" really wouldn't show up until you got to ranges most of us can't reliably hit game at anyway. Any of the 5 mentioned would be just fine out to 400-500 yards on game assuming use of a properly constructed game bullet. The Mosin is actually a .310 bore, and I don't know what that would do to affect accuracy of running .308 bullets but assume it can't be good, nor do I know the standard twist rate and what it's "window" of optimum bullet wt is based on that rate of twist.

Fact is, you can throw all those rounds in a bucket, and any of them, the platform they're launched from not withstanding, will "get the job done."

Hope that helps answer the question somewhat.

[EviL]

well after hearing everyone talking about Mosins ive been thinking about getting one. i went to this sports store that just opened here called Big 5 just to check it out, i didnt even know they had guns, but they did. they had 2 Mosins, one was a little shorter than the other one and they were both priced at $179. This seemed a little to much to me, what do u guys think? Maybe id have better luck for a lower price at a gun show? I just got a Rem 870 express at walmart for like $280 + tax. The 870 express at Big 5 was $399 + tax, so i guess all of their guns are over priced. They had a pump AK that was pretty cool lookin for about $260, im thinkin about gettin that for my next gun purchase, not sure yet tho.

[Cyrano]

Thanks for the reply, .280Rem.

It seems that ballistically, there is little to choose between the .270, .280 and .308-family rounds. So now we look at the factor of total weight of each round. One reason MacNamara wanted to shift from the 7.62 NATO to the 5.56 NATO round was the soldiers could carry more of them, a factor in a humid jungle where the average range of engagement is less than 100 meters.That's the environment the M-16 was intended for.

But to quote a Marine master gunnery sergeant of my acquaintance, "The M-16 is a good rifle in the urban environment, provided it's a clean environment like an American or European city. It is an aedquate rifle in the jungle environment, provided you can keep it lubricated. It is an inadequate rifle in the forest environment and the arctic environment because its range is too short, the bullet is too light and it does not react well to cold weather. And in the desert environment, it is completely inadequate to the mission because its range is too short, the bullet is too light, and it attracts dust and dirt like a magnet and can only be kept operational by constant cleaning."

So I think what I need to determine is how much does each cartridge weigh in lots of 100 rounds. If the .270 or .280 rounds weigh substantially less than the 7.62 round or the 6.5 Grendel (which at the moment are the front-runners in the Zen battle rifle cartridge race), that could change the equation in their favor. Can you help me out here?

[.280Rem]

Originally Posted by Cyrano

Thanks for the reply, .280Rem.

It seems that ballistically, there is little to choose between the .270, .280 and .308-family rounds. So now we look at the factor of total weight of each round. One reason MacNamara wanted to shift from the 7.62 NATO to the 5.56 NATO round was the soldiers could carry more of them, a factor in a humid jungle where the average range of engagement is less than 100 meters.That's the environment the M-16 was intended for.

But to quote a Marine master gunnery sergeant of my acquaintance, "The M-16 is a good rifle in the urban environment, provided it's a clean environment like an American or European city. It is an aedquate rifle in the jungle environment, provided you can keep it lubricated. It is an inadequate rifle in the forest environment and the arctic environment because its range is too short, the bullet is too light and it does not react well to cold weather. And in the desert environment, it is completely inadequate to the mission because its range is too short, the bullet is too light, and it attracts dust and dirt like a magnet and can only be kept operational by constant cleaning."

So I think what I need to determine is how much does each cartridge weigh in lots of 100 rounds. If the .270 or .280 rounds weigh substantially less than the 7.62 round or the 6.5 Grendel (which at the moment are the front-runners in the Zen battle rifle cartridge race), that could change the equation in their favor. Can you help me out here?

I'm certainly no military genius. I dont study military guns much anymore. I used to have some interest when I was younger, and of course when I was in the military. The M-16 and the .223 have served well, despite some finding fault with them. You have to understand there's little to choose from once you get above that. For what the military wants in a round, the .270, .280, and 30-06 would be impractical. I don't know all the ins and outs of the studies that made them go with the 223. But once you get up above that, the cartridges are either .308 case based, or 30-06 case based. You can remove the longer 30-06 from the mix which is what the .270 and .280 are based on. And then you have to consider what other allied countries are using. I don't know the standard European Military cartridge now. In my opinion, IF the military is looking to make a change, and I don't know if they are, the smaller caliber .308 based rounds would be the primary suspects. Those being the .243, .260, and 7-08. Seems to me that the 7-08 would be well suited to handle a wide range of applications for the military as it handles bullets in wts from 120 grains up to 175grs. The .260 might be a viable option too with bullets from 100grs up to 140, while giving ample punch a and still keeping wt at a minimum. I don't think the .243 would offer a significant overall wt difference enough to limit bullet selection to 75-100grs. Still as far as mag capacity, you're right back up to the .308 because its all the same case regardless of caliber. So, that's what little I know about that. Next to nothing.

[meatloaf]

LMFAO .280 your to much man chill out. I think mosins are ugly too, but come on man really? You can continue receiving the beatings if you want, I have been laughing now for 30 min.

Yes I said they are ugly. I also like the remington 700. Some guys like red heads some like blonds, and neither is wrong. I like AK's and AR's as well as fine hunting platforms.

Also .280 your responses = sphincter holeness so if the responses hurt your feelings well you started it.

[dgray64]

Originally Posted by lorcin25

Ok. I have only been on this board for a few months but I already know I am going to get hammered on this question but I just have to know: What on earth is the big deal about Mosin Nagants? Most of the guys here are absolutely crazy about them but I don't get it. Now, I have only seen one at Bass Pro and I heard them mention one on Enemy at the Gates, but other than that.....I never hear about them.

Somebody please fill me in!!!

(Did I just open a can of worms?)

Besides what everyone else said about the quality and fun and cheapness and whatever (I love my M44 and my 91/30), one of the best reasons for going Mosin is found in this link. I hope you are ready for a laugh because the facts are funny!

Mosin Nagant Humor* AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

Dave

[meatloaf]

Originally Posted by dgray64

Besides what everyone else said about the quality and fun and cheapness and whatever (I love my M44 and my 91/30), one of the best reasons for going Mosin is found in this link. I hope you are ready for a laugh because the facts are funny!

Mosin Nagant Humor*&!@#% AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

Dave

LOL good sight. lmao you can stab your opponent from across the river with out leaving your fox hole.

[Paper]

Originally Posted by EviL

they had 2 Mosins, one was a little shorter than the other one and they were both priced at $179. This seemed a little to much to me, what do u guys think?

Both are about $75-100 too much.

The longer one was more than likely a 91/30 and the shorter one, depending on if it had a bayonette or not would be a M44 or a M38, respectively..

You should be able to find one pretty much anywhere for $125, max... 6 months from now that might change, but that's pretty much the going price if you're buying off a rack in a gun store.

Or, get your FFL Curio and Relic license and buy all of them you want at $70 each, or less.

[toolman]

EviL, keep an eye on Big5 for their sales, M\N's are often sold for well under $100 when they have a sale.

[tbonecpk]

Ok this is my opinion for the Zen Battle Rifle. We allready have it. It's called the M14. All it needs is a new stock and there is one that would fit the job it's called the sage stock. The problem with the production M14 is that the elbow of the stock gives it a natural pivot point while being fired in full auto and also it's mutch heavier. the sage stock fixes this problem because there is no bend no pivot point. all the recoil is going into the user's shoulder making it easier to control under full auto. It also reduces the weight because it is made of aluminum. The stock also has the quad rail system allowing full customization that the M16 family of rifles have enjoyed for the past decade or more. here's a link if you wish to check it out.

The SAGA of the SAGE M14 EBR stock

also the 7.62Nato/.308 Winchester has the punch that the .223 lacks and if I remember correctly is superior to the 7.62x39 because it is a much more consistant round than the soviet counterpart and the rifle itself has an effective range of out to 600 yards versus the M16 at 200 yards or Ak-47 at around 150 yards.

[just_a_car]

Um, tbone, this is a thread about mosin nagants.... Nowhere in your post did you mention anything about them, other than "Soviet", but that was in reference to the AK-47.

[tbonecpk]

I know I went off topic was addressing a question presented by cyrano that's all and I should have quoated it but forgot too

[samuel]

Originally Posted by tbonecpk

I know I went off topic was addressing a question presented by cyrano that's all and I should have quoated it but forgot too

That,s ok,I'll mention that the mosin and M14 are similar in range and power. sam.