browning x-bolt vs rem model 700?

[Midas]

Originally Posted by Ron AKA

Sam, why don't you just enter the numbers in the calculator and see for yourself? Your comments got my attention because it makes no sense that the recoil on a 30-06 and a 7mmRM are essentially the same, when the 7mm is a much larger cartridge.

The 7mmRM fires a smaller, lighter bullet, at higher velocity, and the downrange energy between the two is darn near identical, to say the 7RM has a lot more recoil, is just plain BS. Ron, have you ever fired a 7 Mag, and a 30-06, to compare them? or are you just getting your info from charts on the internet?

[Ron AKA]

Originally Posted by Midas

The 7mmRM fires a smaller, lighter bullet, at higher velocity, and the downrange energy between the two is darn near identical, to say the 7RM has a lot more recoil, is just plain BS. Ron, have you ever fired a 7 Mag, and a 30-06, to compare them? or are you just getting your info from charts on the internet?

As I suggested to Sam, just enter the numbers into the calculator link I provided. I used a 175 grain bullet in the 7mm and a 180 in the 30-06. I used the maximum velocity for each as published in the Nosler data link I gave. I assumed an 8 lb gun for each. I can't think of any fairer way to compare them. Yes, I've fired them both for what that is worth.

For similar bullet weights the 7mm will have a higher velocity due to more powder capacity. It will have a higher ballistic coefficient due to the smaller bore, and thus muzzle and down range energy will be even better than the 30-06. Recoil however is based on muzzle velocity, bullet weight, powder weight, and rifle weight.

Recoil is 20% more, which I consider significant. Power advantage is similar. Not sure why anyone would be surprised by that, if they looked at the two cartridges side by side.

[ArkansasHunter]

Ron which bullet will have more terminal "damage" then ? The 7mm or 30 caliber ?
Regards A.H

[Midas]

Originally Posted by Ron AKA

As I suggested to Sam, just enter the numbers into the calculator link I provided. I used a 175 grain bullet in the 7mm and a 180 in the 30-06. I used the maximum velocity for each as published in the Nosler data link I gave. I assumed an 8 lb gun for each. I can't think of any fairer way to compare them. Yes, I've fired them both for what that is worth.

For similar bullet weights the 7mm will have a higher velocity due to more powder capacity. It will have a higher ballistic coefficient due to the smaller bore, and thus muzzle and down range energy will be even better than the 30-06. Recoil however is based on muzzle velocity, bullet weight, powder weight, and rifle weight.

Recoil is 20% more, which I consider significant. Power advantage is similar. Not sure why anyone would be surprised by that, if they looked at the two cartridges side by side.

Good grief, the cartridges are so similar, that it's not even worth splitting hairs over. If you are bothered by the recoil of either, you need to find a different sport, golf perhaps.

[Ron AKA]

Originally Posted by ArkansasHunter

Ron which bullet will have more terminal "damage" then ? The 7mm or 30 caliber ?
Regards A.H

While others here seem to disagree, I believe kinetic energy, bullet design, and bullet placement are the important factors in determining terminal damage or killing power. If we take the examples I provided earlier for the recoil calc, 175 grain 7mm at 2970 fps, and 180 grain 30 cal at 2730, Nosler Partition bullets for both, and assume the guy behind the gun does the job on both it comes down to energy. At 300 yards with my ballistics program I get the following:

7mmRM - 2354 ft-lbs
30-06 - 1945 ft-lbs

So the 7mm has about 21% more energy or killing power. As one would expect this is similar to the difference in recoil. There is no free lunch.

Ron

[Ron AKA]

Originally Posted by Midas

Good grief, the cartridges are so similar, that it's not even worth splitting hairs over. If you are bothered by the recoil of either, you need to find a different sport, golf perhaps.

Yep, the .308 is essentially the same as the 30-06, and the 30-06 is essentially the same as the 7mmRM. My thoughts are that the .308 guy would get a little wake up call for golf when he pulls the trigger on the 7mmRM.

[Midas]

Originally Posted by Ron AKA

While others here seem to disagree, I believe kinetic energy, bullet design, and bullet placement are the important factors in determining terminal damage or killing power. If we take the examples I provided earlier for the recoil calc, 175 grain 7mm at 2970 fps, and 180 grain 30 cal at 2730, Nosler Partition bullets for both, and assume the guy behind the gun does the job on both it comes down to energy. At 300 yards with my ballistics program I get the following:

7mmRM - 2354 ft-lbs
30-06 - 1945 ft-lbs

So the 7mm has about 21% more energy or killing power. As one would expect this is similar to the difference in recoil. There is no free lunch.

Ron

Energy= killing power? hold your horses, what about bullet diameter? it is more important to killing power, than energy. Take this for example, a .340 Weatherby generates 4800 ft lbs with a 250 grain bullet, at the muzzle, this is almost identical to the 5000 ft lbs generated by the .458 Win mag firing a 500 grain bullet, are you saying that the .340 Weatherby will kill almost as well, even though it's bullet weighs half as much, and is .120 smaller than the .458 Win Mag's?

[sbowers5]

Midas ron canno't understand that kind of logic, will you please try not to confuse him.
steve

[samuel]

Originally Posted by Ron AKA

Sam, why don't you just enter the numbers in the calculator and see for yourself? Your comments got my attention because it makes no sense that the recoil on a 30-06 and a 7mmRM are essentially the same, when the 7mm is a much larger cartridge.

Good grief man,I love recoil,I love it when a 3 1/2" 12ga pointed at a 45% angle at geese slams back and causes little silver dots in my vision.I love the bigbores that develope 7500 lbs actually make me realise there are guns that make me respect their recoil.(yes I have fired a .600 Nitro,not once but numerous times and surprisingly,they are quite accurate.)I love firing BMG .50,s.And I already said I take your findings as gospel.It isn't me you should be working on and straightening out.You must,it is your duty to straighten people like that Hawks and all of the gun editors out.You must start a campain immediately,sending emails,letters and making phone calls,setting these people that have been misleading everyone for years,straight.You could threaten to start a counter column of facts,threaten law suits,and a real biggy,threaten to take their typewriter away.(along with their car keys)There are several ways to get their attention,no desert,10:00 curfew,grounding for a month.You must do your duty and inform these gun gurus that you know the facts and they better listen.I am sure these poor misguided souls will thank you once you lay the gospel on them and guide them on the path of your knowledge,the same as I do.Thank you,thank you,thank you,and go get them. sam.

[Ron AKA]

Originally Posted by Midas

Energy= killing power? hold your horses, what about bullet diameter? it is more important to killing power, than energy. Take this for example, a .340 Weatherby generates 4800 ft lbs with a 250 grain bullet, at the muzzle, this is almost identical to the 5000 ft lbs generated by the .458 Win mag firing a 500 grain bullet, are you saying that the .340 Weatherby will kill almost as well, even though it's bullet weighs half as much, and is .120 smaller than the .458 Win Mag's?

Yes that is correct, if your numbers are correct, and the bullets are designed properly for the energy, and the gunner can get them on target.

When you pay for your electricty bill, you are charged for energy, not amperage, not voltage, and not for the size of wires coming into your house. You pay for energy, because that is what delivers the goods.

[telkev]

Referring to your last post Ron. You have resorted to me looking up useless information and energy calculators just as you do every other post. Bullet diameter has no importance on killing power, hmmmm. Just out of curiousity, I chose the 444 Marlin vs 22-250. According to the remington website, a 240 grain semijacketed hollowpoint has 1010 ft./lbs of kinetic energy at 200 yards. My favorite handload for the 22-250 using a 50 gr. vmax according to the ballistics calculator on the hornady website has 1023 ft./lbs of kinetic energy at 200 yards. So your explanation of energy=killing power is telling me that the 2 examples listed have virtually the same killing power. Which one of these examples is going to humanely kill their intended victim? According to you, the one with the "sensible" recoil is the better choice. Which would be the 22-250. How is a bullet that is half the diameter, and almost 1/5 the weight supposedly equal in "killing" power?

[ACfixer]

A well placed .22 LR will kill better than a poorly placed .30-06. I would say shot placement is at least as important as any other single factor. Shoot a big bear in the ass while you're standing 30' from it and you'll see my point.

C'mon folks, it ALL counts when it comes to killing power and more of anything almost always kills better. (to a point, I understand a FMJ .22-250 traveling at 4000 fps sails right through something at 20' )

Shot placement
Distance
Energy
Speed
Caliber
Composition

It all matters when it comes to killin'.

[Mooseman684]

Originally Posted by Ron AKA

Yes that is correct, if your numbers are correct, and the bullets are designed properly for the energy, and the gunner can get them on target.
When you pay for your electricty bill, you are charged for energy, not amperage, not voltage, and not for the size of wires coming into your house. You pay for energy, because that is what delivers the goods.

NOT even Close Ron....You just do not have a clue. Energy is just the stored POTENTIAL in the bullet after being fired...What matters is the Size of the wound channel and The SHOCK factor that is imparted and a mushrooming bullet EXPANDS to make a larger wound channel while expending its energy to do so to create that shock wave through an animal. A larger bullet that expands will impart more SHOCK energy than a smaller bullet which will penetrate farther.
Your analogy of the Electricity is grasping for straws AGAIN ! Every House has the same potential energy AVAILABLE as far as Electron flow is concerned,But Electricity is NOT KINETIC ENERGY... Bullets are Kinetic energy and not all are the same. You keep trying to push your WIMPY Calibers on people but you yourself admit to not liking Heavy recoil...Well I have NEWS for you, The Heavier the recoil, the more potential Energy has to be generated by the laws of Physics in similar weight rifles...
I agree with Midas On this one..If ya Can't handle the recoil , Take up GOLF or Billiards...You are fooling yourself and even Ray Charles could see that !

[samuel]

Originally Posted by Ron AKA

Yes that is correct, if your numbers are correct, and the bullets are designed properly for the energy, and the gunner can get them on target.
When you pay for your electricty bill, you are charged for energy, not amperage, not voltage, and not for the size of wires coming into your house. You pay for energy, because that is what delivers the goods.

What happens if you dont use the energy available? Do you pay for it anyway? sam.

[Ron AKA]

Originally Posted by telkev

Referring to your last post Ron. You have resorted to me looking up useless information and energy calculators just as you do every other post. Bullet diameter has no importance on killing power, hmmmm. Just out of curiousity, I chose the 444 Marlin vs 22-250. According to the remington website, a 240 grain semijacketed hollowpoint has 1010 ft./lbs of kinetic energy at 200 yards. My favorite handload for the 22-250 using a 50 gr. vmax according to the ballistics calculator on the hornady website has 1023 ft./lbs of kinetic energy at 200 yards. So your explanation of energy=killing power is telling me that the 2 examples listed have virtually the same killing power. Which one of these examples is going to humanely kill their intended victim? According to you, the one with the "sensible" recoil is the better choice. Which would be the 22-250. How is a bullet that is half the diameter, and almost 1/5 the weight supposedly equal in "killing" power?

Energy is only one part of the killing power formula. There is also bullet design and bullet placement. The reason the 22-250 bullet has so much energy for its size/weight is that energy is proportional to the square of velocity as explained in the mad professor video I posted. The challenge here will be bullet design. I would say most if not nearly all .22 jacketed bullets are going to be designed based on them being used for varmints like prarrie dogs or the like. They will have thin jackets and will expand rapidly and even blow up. The other reason for having a thin jacket is practicality. If you made a thick jacket there would be no room left for lead. I don't believe Nosler even makes a partition bullet in the .22 caliber. Barnes makes a solid copper bullet in .22 caliber and it probably would be the best bet, assuming they have it designed so it will expand, retain weight, and not blow up. I believe that is their claim to fame, so it may work very well.

[Ron AKA]

Originally Posted by Mooseman684

NOT even Close Ron....You just do not have a clue. Energy is just the stored POTENTIAL in the bullet after being fired...What matters is the Size of the wound channel and The SHOCK factor that is imparted and a mushrooming bullet EXPANDS to make a larger wound channel while expending its energy to do so to create that shock wave through an animal. A larger bullet that expands will impart more SHOCK energy than a smaller bullet which will penetrate farther.
Your analogy of the Electricity is grasping for straws AGAIN ! Every House has the same potential energy AVAILABLE as far as Electron flow is concerned,But Electricity is NOT KINETIC ENERGY... Bullets are Kinetic energy and not all are the same. You keep trying to push your WIMPY Calibers on people but you yourself admit to not liking Heavy recoil...Well I have NEWS for you, The Heavier the recoil, the more potential Energy has to be generated by the laws of Physics in similar weight rifles...
I agree with Midas On this one..If ya Can't handle the recoil , Take up GOLF or Billiards...You are fooling yourself and even Ray Charles could see that !

It is disappointing that this forum has dropped so low in civility that moderators use personal attacks to support their opinions. In most forums the moderators set a high standard for person conduct, but apparantly not here.

You really have answered your own question. I'm sure you have seen the videos of bullets going through ballistic gel, and the damage path they leave. It is measured in multiple inches not fractions of an inch (bullet size). It is the kinetic energy that creats the shock effect. The higher the kinetic energy the higher the shock effect. The energy has no place else to go.

Yes electricity is not kinetic energy, but it is still energy. As is chemical energy in gun powder. More powder, more energy, more shock.

[telkev]

Originally Posted by Ron AKA

Energy is only one part of the killing power formula. There is also bullet design and bullet placement. The reason the 22-250 bullet has so much energy for its size/weight is that energy is proportional to the square of velocity as explained in the mad professor video I posted. The challenge here will be bullet design. I would say most if not nearly all .22 jacketed bullets are going to be designed based on them being used for varmints like prarrie dogs or the like. They will have thin jackets and will expand rapidly and even blow up. The other reason for having a thin jacket is practicality. If you made a thick jacket there would be no room left for lead. I don't believe Nosler even makes a partition bullet in the .22 caliber. Barnes makes a solid copper bullet in .22 caliber and it probably would be the best bet, assuming they have it designed so it will expand, retain weight, and not blow up. I believe that is their claim to fame, so it may work very well.

You are correct on bullet design for the 22 calibers. Changing to either of the bullets that you mention proves only to make the sectional density and ballistic coefficients to increase, therefore increasing their energy. Nosler does make a partition for the .224 caliber.
Now that being said, you have just contridicted yourself from several other threads about the potential for using a 22 caliber centerfire for big game hunting.
You still did not answer the question, which bullet is going to have the more "killing power", the 444 or the 22-250.

[telkev]

[/quote]When you pay for your electricty bill, you are charged for energy, not amperage, not voltage, and not for the size of wires coming into your house. You pay for energy, because that is what delivers the goods.[/quote]

This is also incorrect. You pay your electric bill by the amount of kilowatt hours that you use. Watts= volts x amps.

[Ron AKA]

Originally Posted by telkev

You still did not answer the question, which bullet is going to have the more "killing power", the 444 or the 22-250.

With perfect bullet design and if the energy is the same, and the bullet placement good, they will have the same killing power. However in the .22 I'm somewhat skeptical that the bullet design will be up to the task. The Barnes may work as I said. I guess some testing would be required to see.

Kilowatt hours are units of energy.

[telkev]

Originally Posted by Ron AKA

With perfect bullet design and if the energy is the same, and the bullet placement good, they will have the same killing power. However in the .22 I'm somewhat skeptical that the bullet design will be up to the task. The Barnes may work as I said. I guess some testing would be required to see.

Kilowatt hours are units of energy.

Correct, and watts are measured in the formula I provided. Voltage and Amperage has everything to do with energy. Your should read your quote "When you pay for your electricty bill, you are charged for energy, not amperage, not voltage, and not for the size of wires coming into your house. You pay for energy, because that is what delivers the goods." Without voltage and amperage, you will have no energy. You should delete this quote.