looking for a long range gun

[Tack Driver]

Originally Posted by Ten Man

Savage or Remington .308 Police Model.

I have both, and am very happy with what they do.

What Ten Man said, but get it in .300 Win Mag; if you have deep pockets and you reload, consider a Weatherby Mark V or Vangaurd .300 Weatherby Magnum. A Remington Sendero in .300 RUM would be another good option if you don't mind recoil.

[Bart B.]

Don't use any round action unless it's glued in a square sleeve. Remington's were proved not too good back in the 1960's shooting bullets heavier than 150 grains. They torqued out of fit in epoxy bedding. What started as a 1/2 MOA .308 win. at 600 yards went to a 3/4 MOA rifle in 200 rounds. After 400 rounds, close to a 1 MOA rifle. Military rifle teams shooting 30 caliber magnums in Remingtons had them shooting loose from bedding in half as many rounds.

Use a square bottom/side action. Win. 70's are great. Or a Tubb 2000 rifle which is all metal and no epoxy to mess with. These are great for shooting from the shoulder.

A benchrest rifle will do good using a Stolle single shot action. There's a few other square bottom/side ones that are good.

Use Tubb's 6XC cartridge as it's probably the best one for ranges up to 600 yards. For greater ranges, use the 6.5x.284. Stay away from any belted case ammo; they all kick too much to shoot really accurate.

For what it's worth, the .30-06 faded away as a "serious" round for competition back in the mid /60's when the .308 Win. was found to shoot nearly twice as accurate; even with the same quality barrels, receivers, stocks and ammo.

Bolt guns have always shot more accurate than semiautos. If you want to be "competitive" through 1000 yards, then you'll need at least $2000 or more for a custom rifle that'll shoot inside 7 inches all day long at that range with really good handloads. It'll need to shoot 1/4th MOA at 100 yards to do that; no factory rifle shoots that well. Then you will need to buy a scope for it.

[GlennM]

Don't use any round action unless it's glued in a square sleeve. Remington's were proved not too good back in the 1960's shooting bullets heavier than 150 grains. They torqued out of fit in epoxy bedding. What started as a 1/2 MOA .308 win. at 600 yards went to a 3/4 MOA rifle in 200 rounds. After 400 rounds, close to a 1 MOA rifle. Military rifle teams shooting 30 caliber magnums in Remingtons had them shooting loose from bedding in half as many rounds.

Use a square bottom/side action. Win. 70's are great. Or a Tubb 2000 rifle which is all metal and no epoxy to mess with. These are great for shooting from the shoulder.

A benchrest rifle will do good using a Stolle single shot action. There's a few other square bottom/side ones that are good.

Use Tubb's 6XC cartridge as it's probably the best one for ranges up to 600 yards. For greater ranges, use the 6.5x.284. Stay away from any belted case ammo; they all kick too much to shoot really accurate.

For what it's worth, the .30-06 faded away as a "serious" round for competition back in the mid /60's when the .308 Win. was found to shoot nearly twice as accurate; even with the same quality barrels, receivers, stocks and ammo.

Bolt guns have always shot more accurate than semiautos. If you want to be "competitive" through 1000 yards, then you'll need at least $2000 or more for a custom rifle that'll shoot inside 7 inches all day long at that range with really good handloads. It'll need to shoot 1/4th MOA at 100 yards to do that; no factory rifle shoots that well. Then you will need to buy a scope for it.

I don't know where to start, so I'll keep it as brief as possible. I've shot Camp Perry matches for many years, and the belted magnums, in Remington 700 actions, account for a lion's share of the pieces on the 1K range for box-stock pieces. Talking about 1/4 inch MOA is better than most shooters can hold... and frankly, better than most rifles -- even custom rifles, will shoot. Recommending to someone to run out and spend over $2K for a custom rifle, then incidentally mentioning they'll "need a scope" made me cough. A 32X Leopold isn't financially insignificant, but it's what's most commonly seen on the 1K range. But that isn't what the OP was about.... it was a request for information about what kind of rifle, round and setup he'd need to shoot good groups at
"long range", which is a relative term. Here again, we bump into that condition so prevalent in today's Internet... "I need something" without a full set of qualifiers of the requirements, the OP's shooting (and reloading) experience, and we find ourselves trying to help without having all the facts.

There's nothing wrong with a belted magnum, especially if you plan on shooting consistently at 1K. BUT, if the shooter is sensitive to recoil, all kinds of bad things can result, such as anticipation of the shot, flinching, etc, etc, etc. Even a couple hours on the bench with my Sendero leaves me with a headache and no desire to return the following morning. But at 1K, I still print better groups with my .300WM than my .243, 6MM PPC, 7mm-08, '06, .308 or .338. (I don't own a RUM). It's just personal experience and preference. But I'd never recommend anyone run out and spend a bunch of cash without first asking shooters at a range to try their pieces, their favorite calibers, their optics AND their own preferences. It's like reading a manual on how-to-ride-dirt-bikes. Until you've actually tried it, all the text in the world is just that....

[jrswanson1]

Try this on for size. Build a complete AR-10 lower, put a good trigger in it. Then go to Custom AR10 Rifles Accuracy Systems Gunsmith Gunsmithing AR 10 for the upper of your choice. They make them in 243 Win, 260Rem, 7mm-08, 284Win, 308Win "Match", 35Rem, 300Savage, 257Roberts, 358Win, 300SAUM, 325WSM, 6.5 Creedmore, & more! They also guarantee 3/4 MOA accuracy with their barrels.

Jim

[GlennM]

Let's do the math, providing I haven't had too many Rum & Cokes' tonight.

3/4" moa is 1.5" at 200. (It doubles every 100 yards). 3" @ 300. 6" @ 400. 12" @ 500.... nuff said?

[dmsbandit]

Originally Posted by big shrek

6.5 Creedmore for long range target...'nuff said.


If you just want to hunt at up to 500 yards...Mooseman & bigboomer are right, any of the .30 cal offerings will do. That's why nearly everyone has a .30-06 &/or a .308 in their safe.

the only thing the creedmore does better than the 260 remington is empty your pockets. There is NOTHING the creedmore does that the 260 can't do. Plus 260 cases can be made from 243 and 7-08 cases. If you want to shoot a creedmore, you have to pay the man for brass.

[skiking]

I think it is time for you to go to bed, 1 MOA @ 500 yds = 5.24".

Now time for some homemade wine, yay!!

[338RUM]

Originally Posted by GlennM

Let's do the math, providing I haven't had too many Rum & Cokes' tonight.

3/4" moa is 1.5" at 200. (It doubles every 100 yards). 3" @ 300. 6" @ 400. 12" @ 500.... nuff said?

actually 1 MOA is 1" at 100 and 1 MOA is 5 inches at 500 and 1 MOA is 10 inches at 1,000...

[Ten Man]

Originally Posted by GlennM

Let's do the math, providing I haven't had too many Rum & Cokes' tonight.

3/4" moa is 1.5" at 200. (It doubles every 100 yards). 3" @ 300. 6" @ 400. 12" @ 500.... nuff said?

Too many rum and Cokes!! LOL

3/4 MOA is 1.5" @ 200, 2.25" @ 300, 3.0" @ 400, and 3.75" @ 500.

[GlockMeister]

Originally Posted by stonesfan08

hey youall i am looking for a long range rifle, up to like 700yrds being the longest i can take at my place but i want ot shoot mostly between 250-500 yrds

what caliber is best in your opinion?

what type of gun would you get?(bolt or autoloading)i think there is a ar-15 comp. at 1000yrds so i think a custom built ar might serve me well.

what gun would you get?

Remington 700BDL in say 30-06 or .300 win mag...

[GlennM]

Damn! I knew that new Seagrams rum was gonna get me Back the the Bacardi.

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by stonesfan08

serious target. i have my ideas but i wanted to here youalls. i am talking about bench rest shooting sub moa at 500yrds or more

Glenn M, this guy want's less than 5 inch groups at 500 yards. Your comments:

the belted magnums, in Remington 700 actions, account for a lion's share of the pieces on the 1K range for box-stock pieces. Talking about 1/4 inch MOA is better than most shooters can hold... and frankly, better than most rifles -- even custom rifles, will shoot.

are correct, but I don't thnk you understand the issues.

I'm talking about what it takes to win matches, not what are used in them. I've been to Perry myself many times and Winchesters have won more 1000 yard matches than Remingtons there. Stolle Panda's are also among the many winners. Remington's are seldom seen in hands of 1000 yard matches in winner's circles. Their issues of Remington's torquing loose from bedding became apparent some 50 years ago when epoxy bedding was first used. Besides, they're only about 1/3rd as stiff/rigid as Winchesters. Few folks these days know about the Remmy's problems nor understand why they exist. Benchresters did back in the 1960's and started glueing them in rectangular sleeves and even with the 22 and 24 caliber small cartridges, they shot better.

Nobody holds 1/4th MOA shooting from prone. 3/4ths MOA is what the best prone shooters hold and try to break shots inside a 1/2 MOA circle. So they need a 1/2 to 3/4 MOA rifle at 1000 yards to win the matches. Backing up from 1000 to 100 yards with a good understanding of exterior ballistics, it's easy to see that rifles need to shoot 1/4 MOA at 100 yards to do that. And they do shoot that well from machine rests.

But benchresters hold near 1/50th MOA or better 'cause they aren't holding their rifles; they sit atop rests untouched by humans for the most part.

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by skiking

I think it is time for you to go to bed, 1 MOA @ 500 yds = 5.24". Now time for some homemade wine, yay!!

Skiking, exactly 1 inch at 100 yards has been the MOA standard in the shooting sports for over 100 years. It started with aperture sight radius at 30 inches with the lead screws on the rear sights having 40 tpi. One third of a turn moved the rear sight .008333 inch for a 1 MOA change. That's exactly 1/3600th of the sight radius as well as 100 yards. Then externally adjusted scope mounts spaced 7.2 inches apart with the same thread count with 50 clicks per turn, 4 clicks moved the rear mount .002 inch which is also 1/3600th of the spacing.

Your reference was for trig functions which is about 1.0472 inch at 100 yards for 1 MOA.

[skiking]

Originally Posted by Bart B.

Skiking, exactly 1 inch at 100 yards has been the MOA standard in the shooting sports for over 100 years. It started with aperture sight radius at 30 inches with the lead screws on the rear sights having 40 tpi. One third of a turn moved the rear sight .008333 inch for a 1 MOA change. That's exactly 1/3600th of the sight radius as well as 100 yards. Then externally adjusted scope mounts spaced 7.2 inches apart with the same thread count with 50 clicks per turn, 4 clicks moved the rear mount .002 inch which is also 1/3600th of the spacing.

Your reference was for trig functions which is about 1.0472 inch at 100 yards for 1 MOA.

I think that people need to understand that while they say that 1"= 1MOA @ 100 yds it is slightly more. FAPP I have no problem saying 1"=1MOA @100yds, but I am a surveyor and angles matter to me.

[stonesfan08]

Originally Posted by GlockMeister

Remington 700BDL in say 30-06 or .300 win mag...

have .30-06 700cdl with a 3-9. i shoot a 3/4moa at 100yrds, use it as a deer rifle, but i am one of those people that "needs" a different gun for everything if you know what i mean.

i think over the next few years i think i am going to get a savage .17bolt,
a ar-15 with a 24 inch 1:8 twist and a free floating barrel in .223 and .308

[Capulet]

The Nemesis Arms Windrunner has past the prototype stage and is now in production for a January 2010 delivery. It fits into a back pack and you have your choice of 4 barrels. The basic is a .308 but it also comes with a .338 and a .223. Forget what the 4th is. It is advertised to make a 6.5 inch group at 900 yards.

[GlennM]

The Nemesis Arms Windrunner has past the prototype stage and is now in production for a January 2010 delivery. It fits into a back pack and you have your choice of 4 barrels. The basic is a .308 but it also comes with a .338 and a .223. Forget what the 4th is. It is advertised to make a 6.5 inch group at 900 yards.

Haven't seen one myself. Curious what caliber they're shooting for that. If it's true, it'd be on my gotta-have list as long as they're not too pricey.

I'm talking about what it takes to win matches, not what are used in them. I've been to Perry myself many times and Winchesters have won more 1000 yard matches than Remingtons there. Stolle Panda's are also among the many winners. Remington's are seldom seen in hands of 1000 yard matches in winner's circles. Their issues of Remington's torquing loose from bedding became apparent some 50 years ago when epoxy bedding was first used. Besides, they're only about 1/3rd as stiff/rigid as Winchesters. Few folks these days know about the Remmy's problems nor understand why they exist. Benchresters did back in the 1960's and started glueing them in rectangular sleeves and even with the 22 and 24 caliber small cartridges, they shot better.

No argument with you, Bart. But let me explain my position, please. The 700 seems to take alot of trash talking out here and -- for an out-of-the-box stock rifle, I would still lobby in favor of the 700 for overall consistency based on the OP's original post when considering $ and performance. I have a 70 in .243WSSM that is an absolute tackdriver "way out yonder" and it sees more daylight on the bench than my Sendero these days.... IF for no other reason than cost-to-feed and reduced recoil compared to the 300WM. Hathcock made history with a 70 in 'Nam and I still consider it the "Rifleman's Rifle". AND, I haven't bought one since Browning/Winchester was acquired by FN (and likely won't), so I don't know what the 70's these recent days are shooting because I haven't shot a whole lot this summer. (Stockpiling ammo rather than using). But I honestly don't understand why the 700 is still plagued with the stigma from problems their bedding created in the 1960's... I personally have never had a problem with mine (now about 9 years old and 2200 rounds later) and have only talked personally with a couple guys who had simply torqued their screws overly tight and admitted they were the culprit for the rifle's failure. My VS in .223 is also one of my top shooters, but I admit it's been to the Remington custom shop for some work. But it still won't perform at the ranges the Sendero will, all things being equal.

I -do- admit that I'm a traditionalist and prefer the beautifully finished wood stocks of my 70's over the kevlar-black of the Sendero and the VS. But shootability for the 3 pieces I've talked about would truly be splitting hairs... and I'm probably to blame more for hits outside the X ring than the rifle itself, regardless of brand or model #.

[Bart B.]

GlennM mentions:

But I honestly don't understand why the 700 is still plagued with the stigma from problems their bedding created in the 1960's...

The reason's the round receiver. Ordinary bolts and nuts have flat surfaces so they don't slip when tightened. Model 70's have flat surfaces that don't slip when the barrel torques as the bullet accelerates down the rifling.

Back in the 1960's when folks started building high power match rifles on Remington actions, equally good barrels chambered for .308 Win. started opening up from 1/2 MOA to 3/4ths MOA at 600 yards after a couple hundred rounds. Rebedding them brought accuracy back to what it was before. Then a couple hundred rounds later, it happened again. At 100 yards, groups would open up 50% too, but that's hard to detect when they're 1/4th inch or so to start with. Darned few people have rifles suitable for 1000 yard competition they can shoot no worse than 1/4th MOA at 1000 yards or 7 inches at 1000 yards. None of the ones I know of shoot any round receiver; they've all got flat sides and bottoms so they won't torque loose.

Belted magnums in round receivers had the same problems after 60 to 80 rounds were fired. Military teams and civilians tried using 1 to 2 inch long recoil lugs on Remington actions but that didn't help either. If one was glued into a flat sided sleeve, they shot very well indeed.

If one's Remington rifle shoots 3/4ths MOA at 100 yards, one may never see the effects of the receiver working out of perfect fit to the bedding.

[samuel]

Originally Posted by Bart B.

GlennM mentions:The reason's the round receiver. Ordinary bolts and nuts have flat surfaces so they don't slip when tightened. Model 70's have flat surfaces that don't slip when the barrel torques as the bullet accelerates down the rifling.

Back in the 1960's when folks started building high power match rifles on Remington actions, equally good barrels chambered for .308 Win. started opening up from 1/2 MOA to 3/4ths MOA at 600 yards after a couple hundred rounds. Rebedding them brought accuracy back to what it was before. Then a couple hundred rounds later, it happened again. At 100 yards, groups would open up 50% too, but that's hard to detect when they're 1/4th inch or so to start with. Darned few people have rifles suitable for 1000 yard competition they can shoot no worse than 1/4th MOA at 1000 yards or 7 inches at 1000 yards. None of the ones I know of shoot any round receiver; they've all got flat sides and bottoms so they won't torque loose.

Belted magnums in round receivers had the same problems after 60 to 80 rounds were fired. Military teams and civilians tried using 1 to 2 inch long recoil lugs on Remington actions but that didn't help either. If one was glued into a flat sided sleeve, they shot very well indeed.

If one's Remington rifle shoots 3/4ths MOA at 100 yards, one may never see the effects of the receiver working out of perfect fit to the bedding.

I can't find any problems like you mention with round receivers except a Bart Bobbitt that makes all kinds of claims and is debunked by several other gun gurus.While I agree the m70 win is a great action,I seldom have seen them in "the winners circle",but have seen many m700 rems. I would like to see your verification on this subject.I have seen more Remington actions in centerfire competition than any other,I suppose because there are so many Remingtons available and their reputation as good shooters.The torquing you speak of can easily be handled by proper bedding of the tang and surge block in my experience.In benchrest competition the actions are almost exclusively custom and some are Rem.mod.700 clones.Mostly they are Borden,Bat,Kelbly,Lawton,Nesika,RPA,Stiller,and such.Almost all are round sided altho they may be flat base.I am real intrested in your verification on this subject.As to belted magnums,I am not partial to them but see a lot of them in winners circles.As to mentioning Carlos Hathcock,s Winchester m70,I saw it at Quantico and they said it would shoot a 2" group at 100yds.I hope you post conformation as I need some reading. ,,,sam.

[GlennM]

GlennM mentions:The reason's the round receiver. Ordinary bolts and nuts have flat surfaces so they don't slip when tightened. Model 70's have flat surfaces that don't slip when the barrel torques as the bullet accelerates down the rifling.

Back in the 1960's when folks started building high power match rifles on Remington actions, equally good barrels chambered for .308 Win. started opening up from 1/2 MOA to 3/4ths MOA at 600 yards after a couple hundred rounds. Rebedding them brought accuracy back to what it was before. Then a couple hundred rounds later, it happened again. At 100 yards, groups would open up 50% too, but that's hard to detect when they're 1/4th inch or so to start with. Darned few people have rifles suitable for 1000 yard competition they can shoot no worse than 1/4th MOA at 1000 yards or 7 inches at 1000 yards. None of the ones I know of shoot any round receiver; they've all got flat sides and bottoms so they won't torque loose.

Belted magnums in round receivers had the same problems after 60 to 80 rounds were fired. Military teams and civilians tried using 1 to 2 inch long recoil lugs on Remington actions but that didn't help either. If one was glued into a flat sided sleeve, they shot very well indeed.

If one's Remington rifle shoots 3/4ths MOA at 100 yards, one may never see the effects of the receiver working out of perfect fit to the bedding.

Psssttt ! Sam, I didn't mention that. Bart did. I was the guy who said I hadn't seen first-hand or experienced the problem Bart was talking about with the 700s. And I still hold my position that the 700 is seen more in .30 cal long range matches than the 70, AND they make it to the winner's circle, too. But that's only my personal experience. I'm sure Bart's is different, and that's why he keeps talking about the 1960's bedding issues I guess. I was only in my teens then and my 99 Savage in 300 Savage caliber was my only .30 in those days. At least, until '69.