Poll on double rifles

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by Shootester

I've never even seen one with my own eyes, atleast not that I can recall. Even if I did have a chance to buy one, I would want to shoot it first and get a feel for it, but as of right now I will have to say that I will stick with bolt action.

I think you have a perfect take on this subject! No firearm that is completely new to you should be bought with out at least haveing handled one, and shooting if possible. Of course folks do that every day, when they walk into Wal Mart and buy a rifle that was made intirely on a machine, and that they have never handled or fired, or even owned a rifle of that brand! As you say if it isn't worth it to you to try it, then the best course of action is to stick with what you know! There is nothing wrong with a good accorate bolt action that you are used to!

There is an old saying that goes like this, "Beware of the man who has one gun, because he's likely to know how to use it!"

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by Whootsinator

I just see it as unnecessary.

No rifle is necessary! Hunting it's self is not necessary, but I sure hope it keeps happening.

People were killing wooly mammoths with rocks, and by driveling them over cliffs long before the Chinese invented gun powder. However, I'm sure glad we aren’t hunting big animals that way today!

The fact that any type of firearm is not necessary, doesn't answer the question why any one of them is not well understood in any part of the world, when it has proven it's self in every other part of the world. That is the question being asked here. I think from the answers so far, we will get there. It makes no difference whether even one guy here ever buys, or even touches a double rifle, it doesn't hurt anything to know more about them, and how they work. Participation in the poll is not mandatory, but i don't think it hurts anything to discuss it!

[Midas]

The main reasons for the double rifle not being more popular in NA, in my opinion, is because of the cost of a handcrafted, handfitted double rifle, and because many folks simply do not see the need for the big bore cartridges that they are commonly chambered for.

Personally, I admire the traditional elegance of a fine double rifle, and I believe it is a truly under appreciated type of rifle in this velocity crazed generation of hunters and shooters.

[sbowers5]

I agree with midas I think they are very under appreciated and I also know that they make them in calibers as small as .243 and i myself would love to have a finely handcrafted double rifle but they really are cost prohibitive.
Steve

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by Midas

The main reasons for the double rifle not being more popular in NA, in my opinion, is because of the cost of a handcrafted, handfitted double rifle, and because many folks simply do not see the need for the big bore cartridges that they are commonly chambered for.

I think you have hit the nail on the head in two ways here. First, the cost of hand, complex fitting of a double rifle to make it worth owning, But secondly that is mainly because most do not know what building a double rifle entails, and simply think the price is for nothing more than decoration. I've been asked the question by someone at one of the Safari shows, when he checked out the price tag hanging in the trigger guard, he ask me "JUST HOW PRETTY CAN THEY MAKE THESE THINGS, TO JUSTIFY THAT PRICE?" What he was looking at was a best grade Holland & Holland made between wars, a prime production time for collectors. It had nothing to do with only the decoration, but the rareity of that particualr piece. A field grade made before WWI , or when they came back on line in the late sixties made by a guild maker would have cost 1/5th as much. Both would do a great job on a elephant, but just like a wal-mart bolt rifle in an appropriate chambering would do anything the same chambering in a $10K custom would, if everything worked like it was supposed to. That is the rubb here, even a field grade double rifle will be as dependable as the top of the line by the same maker. This is because of the fitting that is needed to make a double rifle, is mechanical, not being made intirely by robot mechines. Persision cost money, and the guys that do that hand work, have to be paid on a regular basis, but the rifle will not be ready for the customer will not pay the second half of the price till the rifle is finished, and delivered, 1 to 2 years down the road. The maker's money is tied up for a couple years so that interest has to be paid on the money for materials, and payroll long before the rifle is paid for.

Then you hear the common responce of with modern mechineing tools these rifles can be built like the Remington, stick a barstock on a CNC and turn it on and stand back to put the parts together once the CNC makes them. That has never happened, and never will. the double rifle, even the cheapest ones still require the human hand, and years of experience in the practice.

Personally, I admire the traditional elegance of a fine double rifle, and I believe it is a truly under appreciated type of rifle in this velocity crazed generation of hunters and shooters.

Your admiration is justified, because even the field grade double rifles are works of art in steel and wood. Double barreled shotguns can be made by mechines for the most part, but not double rifles. There are some real reasons why this is true, that we will get into later!

................................ Good hunting

[Kentucky Fan]

I personally would enjoy one in 9.3x62. Just for the coolness factor.

[moosemike]

At the local Cabelas they sell Merkel's in 470 and 500. I'd love to buy one and go shoot an elephant like J.A. Hunter or something. Now if only there wasn't this little problem called money............

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by sbowers5

I agree with midas I think they are very under appreciated and I also know that they make them in calibers as small as .243 and i myself would love to have a finely handcrafted double rifle but they really are cost prohibitive.
Steve

I agree with Midas as well, and I have been in love with S/S double rifles since the age of six years old.

I used to go into town with my grandfather from his ranch in the North end of the Texas hill country where my grandfather traded. It seemed we always had to go to Kelly's hard ware store for something. This was in 1941 or 42, and Mr Kelly had heads mounted on the walls of his store that I had only seen in books. He had hunted Africa back in the 1920s, and 30s and my grand father always had to drag me out of that place.

One day we went into that store, and when Mr kelly saw me, he called me back to the counter at the back of the store. Mr. Kelly had reccognized the Hunter in me, and loved to tell me his stories, and I loved hearing them. At the back counter he placed a oak & Leather luggage case on the counter, and opened it. Inside was a beautiful rich wood stock and action, and a pair of black double barrels. The case had all the tools and other do-dads that come in those cases. He took the rifle out of the case and put it together, and handed it tome coutioning me not to drop it because it was heavy. I only weighed about 70 pounds, and damn that rifle was heavy. He then handed me one of the cartridges for the rifle when he took the rifle back. I dug one of my .22 shorts out of my overhual pocket and compared the two. MY eyes got wide, the cartridge he handed me was a 500/465NE H&H and it looked like a cannon shell. From that day forward every time I hunted with my uncle's 410 double barrel shotgun, every rabbit I shot was a big cape Buffalo, and that little 410 was a H&H double rifle! I was hooked, but I was 21 years old before I bought my first double rifle, in 1957, but I have not been without one of some kind for more than a years since!

I have a lot of bolt actions, levers, single shots, muzzleloaders, pistols, and shotgun of just about every discription, but when I grab a rifle to go hunt, it is always a double rifle, usually a little mod 140E Merkel, 9.3X74R, or my little 8X57JR H, Berella double rifle is in North America, and both the 9.3, and a 470NE Merkel mod 140-2 safari if heading across the water.

..........................................

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by Kentucky Fan

I personally would enjoy one in 9.3x62. Just for the coolness factor.

Here is one piece of free advice never buy a double rifle chambered for a rimless, or belted rimless cartridge that may be ever used for dangerous game. The 9.3X74R is ballisticlly the same cartridge as the 9.3X62, and is rimmed. The rimless fixtures for extracting the empties are break prone, and some times are slow to load as well.

[stinkybriches]

id buy a double in say 30-06, or even .45-70. but the cost would have to be less than say $1500. but its not just the cost, its the usefullness, that i believe makes them less popular in this country. i would be willing to bet that most hunters in wisconsin for example dont hunt anything bigger than a whitetail. can you really beat a short barreled .30-30 lever, or say a semi auto in .308, .270, or .30-06. the calibers are just for example but i think i made my point. then there are the people in other parts of the country that need to be able to make accurate shots at long distances. enter the beanfield rifle. im not trying to say anything bad about doubles, i just dont think they are very practical in this country.

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by stinkybriches

id buy a double in say 30-06, or even .45-70. but the cost would have to be less than say $1500.

The Baikal double rifle is available chambered for 30-06, and 45-70 for around $800, so what's holding you?

but its not just the cost, its the usefullness, that i believe makes them less popular in this country. i would be willing to bet that most hunters in wisconsin for example dont hunt anything bigger than a whitetail.

What makes you think the double rifle is not useful, especially for whitetail? The Merkel, Chapuis, and most others are chambered for rounds like 7.65X57R, 30 Blaser, 8X57JRS, 8X64JRS 9.3X74R , and Heym even has an O/U chambered for 30-30! All those are very good deer, elk, black bear cartridges. I can guarintee you I will get off two "AIMED" shot faster in a S/S double rifle than you will with a leveraction, or bolt rifle. Also I don't think you would want to stand at 250 yds and hope I couldn't hit you with any one of those chamberings from a S/S Merkel 140E, or 141! I have killed mule deer at over 200 yds running with my 9.5X74R Merkel, and running hogs takeing two for two shots a 100 yds with a quick right, and left!

can you really beat a short barreled .30-30 lever, or say a semi auto in .308, .270, or .30-06. the calibers are just for example but i think i made my point. then there are the people in other parts of the country that need to be able to make accurate shots at long distances. enter the beanfield rifle. im not trying to say anything bad about doubles, i just dont think they are very practical in this country.

As above 250 yds shots are a snap and faster two shots than a lever or Bolt. The only place the auto would be faster is on the third shot, and on the lever or bolt, I can equal the thrid shot for time, and be ahead of them for the fourth shot and the 9.3X74R is more powerful than any of the cartridges you list, and shoots just as flat. I just shot at the DRSS Hoot & Shoot Down at Bayou Rifles at Jilif, Texas on the 4th of Oct, and I put four shots into the target in 4 seconds flat,scoreing 36 out of a possible 40 points, and there were double rifle shooters there who beat me for speed, and accuracy, as my four second, four shot string with a Merkel 140E, 9.3X74R double rifle only took fourth place. The 9.3X74R in an 8.3 pound double has a recoil about the same as a 300Win Mag.

Mike Jines won, and shot four shots in 3.7 seconds for four shots shooting a heavy recoiling 500NE Krieghoff double rifle. I don't think a whitetail is going to give anyone shooting a good double much trouble!

You see, these are the misconceptions I was makeing comment about above. People just assume that double rifles are good for only large dangerous game at very close range, and that is not true. The iron sighted double rifle is as accurate as any iron sighted hunting rifle shot from hunting positions, and as accurate as any scoped HUNTING rifle if properly loaded, and scoped.

In most cases the gun rag writers are responcible for these misconceptions, because they write the old wive's tales they have heard, and simply believe them. They are not purposefully lieing, they just don't know any better!

There is no reason you can't out shoot with a dedicated BEAN FIELD rifle over a double rifle, but the true bean field rifle will beat all the ragular bolt, and certainly lever action HUNTING rifles as well. Neither are target rifles, but a true bean field rifle is a target rifle, for all practical purposes.

Nobody is saying anyone has to use a double rifle in North america, but what I am saying is, don't discount them for the reasons you just posted, without trying them first.

If it turns out that the double is not for you, you have lost nothing, but if you try one and like them, even if you never buy one, at least you have experienced something others have not!

[stinkybriches]

how are the baikel rifles accuracy wise. you have now succesefully caught my interest.

[Archetype_wyo]

When you look at regular cartridges i.e, .30-06, military (8mm mauser, 9.3, etc.) what do you gain by having a double barrel over a bolt action? I mean bolts are just as easy to work with practice as it is you pull back another hammer.

[moosemike]

I agree with Arch. The beauty of the bolt is the simplicity. So many other actions are so complicated. Bolts are simple, sturdy, rugged, and accurate and there is no better choice in my opinion for hunting on any continent. An awful lot of African PH's put their trust in a bolt rifle, and the .375 H&H, .416 rigby, and .458 Win. mag are today what the old double Nitro Expresses were to Africa yesterday.

[Archetype_wyo]

Plus I mean, it doesn't make sense to throw a fist sized piece of lead twice and have to reload when you can shoot quite accurately with fixed power optics a tried and true much much much much much much *breathe* much much much much cheaper round several times and then reload (Remington SPS comes to mind) and be just as successful. How much do these NE rounds cost? Several dollars a round I spose at the very cheapest, in that case if you're into spending gobs of money get a .50BMG Bolt Action and snipe the darned elephant from 500yds+ out and it'll cost you half as much or sometimes even less to boot.

[Sav .250]

Only has 2 shots available. Not good if you have a deer charging you and you think your still shooting your marlin lever holding multi-rounds.

[billy]

Originally Posted by sbowers5

I agree with midas I think they are very under appreciated and I also know that they make them in calibers as small as .243 and i myself would love to have a finely handcrafted double rifle but they really are cost prohibitive.
Steve

if i had the money i would order one right now.

[Palladin8]

The most beautiful rifles I have ever seen are the handmade doubles. No bolt or semi auto comes close to them in the craftsmanship. Like Billy if I had the money I would certainly own one.

[Archetype_wyo]

If I had the money for one of them I'd have the money for a loaded AR but I don't so I probably won't ever get one.

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by Archetype_wyo

When you look at regular cartridges i.e, .30-06, military (8mm mauser, 9.3, etc.) what do you gain by having a double barrel over a bolt action? I mean bolts are just as easy to work with practice as it is you pull back another hammer.

That is a fair question Arche! Here is another example of folks not knowing much about double rifles, yet makeing statements as fact. First off double rifles have been for the most part hammerless since the late 1800s, so cocking another hammer doesn't apply. There are new hammer rifles, but they are, just like modern made double shotguns, about 1, one hundreth of the doubles made. The hammerless double rifle cocks both barrels when it is opened to be loaded. So to fire four shots the only thing that makes even one of the four as slow as a bolt is the third shot, because of a the re-load after the first two shots, and that third shot will be about equal in time with the thrid shot in the bolt, and the fourth shot way ahead of the bolt.

Now lets look at the movements needed to fire four shots from both types of hunting rifles.

In both we assume the rifle has a round in the chamber when a deer jumps, so the first shot will be the same for both. If that shot takes the deer in either case, then the war is over, and there was no diference between the two.

Now let's say the first shot misses with both rifles. Now in this case the man with the bolt rifle, even if he is good at reloading the chamber with the rifle at his shoulder, which most are not. Most folks take the rifle down to work the bolt. But for fairness lets say the bolt rifle is worked from the shoulder. Lets see how many moves it takes to get off the second shot with the bolt. #1 he lifts the bolt, #2 he pulls it sharply back about 3 to 4 inches, #3 he slams the bolt forward, #4 he turnes the bolt dawn, #5 he goes back to his grip on the rifle with his trigger hand, #6 regains the sight picture, and finally #7 pulls the trigger! That is seven moves for every shot after the first one. Plus he has to recover from recoil after every shot and regain the sight picture.

Now lets look at the double rifle! As with the bolt rifle the first shot is the same as the bolt simply pull the trigger. As above we also assume the shooter has to regain the sight picture after every shot with either type. However, the only thing needed after the first shot is #1 he moves his finger to the back trigger,for the second shot #2 he pulls the trigger, # 3 he breaks the rifle open while in recoil arch, which dumps both empties, and with two rounds carried between the fore finger, and middle finger of the left hand,and with the but still at the shoulder #4 he drops the two rounds into the chambers, and #5 closes the rifle as it comes down from recoil. and #6, because his hand has never left the triggers,he pulls the trigger for the 3rd shot, and #7 pulls the back trigger for the fourth shot. So what have we found here with this breakdown of moves required for four shots in each type?

The bolt rifle requires 1 move for the first shot, and 7 moves for every one of his shots past the first one! 3 shots X 7 moves = 21 moves for the shots after the first, and 1 for the first shot = as final of 22 moves for the four shots with a bolt rifle.

The double rifle we have 7 moves for the last three shots,plus 1 for the first shot. So here we have 7 moves for the last three, + 1 for the first shot = 8 moves for four shots.

Bolt = 22 moves for the four shots!
Double = 8 move for four shots!

With the bolt rifle every time you work the bolt, you take a chance of a jam. especially when in a hurry to get a deer before he is out of sight, or to stop a big Brown bear before he gets to you. While with a double the only place where a serious mistake can take place in in the ONE reload.

And I really doubt you will fire four shots on target with your bolt rifle in 4 seconds flat, and three other double shooters beat me and I did it in 4 seconds with a double.

This assumes both shooters are equally perfieient with their rifles! As I stated above in another post, I'm not the winner by any means, and at the Hoot& Shoot down at Julif, Texas on Oct 4th, I placed four shots on target with a double rifle in 8 moves in 4 seconds flat! That particular double is fitted with an auto safety, which re-sets the safety when opened for the re-load, adding one more move than without an auto safety. And I only took fourth place scoreing 36 of a possible 40 points. There were several shooters on that fireing line, useing bolt rifles, and not one of them beat even one double rifle shooter for the four timed shots, or scored higher for accuracy.