Poll on double rifles

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by moosemike

I agree with Arch. The beauty of the bolt is the simplicity. So many other actions are so complicated. Bolts are simple, sturdy, rugged, and accurate and there is no better choice in my opinion for hunting on any continent. An awful lot of African PH's put their trust in a bolt rifle, and the .375 H&H, .416 rigby, and .458 Win. mag are today what the old double Nitro Expresses were to Africa yesterday.

Mike there is no rifle in the world that is more simple than a double rifle. Read my post above.

I will bet you my next retirement check against a doughnut that if you ask any PH in Africa is he would rather have a double rifle over the bolt rifle, he will tell you if he could afford one he would already have one.

He will tell you, as well, that a lion chargeing you from close range (50 yds is close for a lion) you will get one shot off with a bolt, and two with a double rifle. You see an African lion can cover 100 yds in 3.5 seconds from a standing start, and if he is within 50 yds, and you are shooting a bolt rifle you better make that first shot count, because you wont get another if you are his target.

The only reason African PHs use bolt rifles is because they are cheap, not because they are better! There are more double rifles in the hands of client hunters, and PHs in Africa today than there were in 1900, and every time you go there you see more doubles.

However we are talking about double rifle in the fields of North America, not Africa. I personally know as many as 40 guys who use nothing else to hunt in Texas alone, and of a couple of hundred who hunt with doubles in Europe, india, Australia, and Africa. Just visit the double rifle forums of Accurate Reloading, or Nitro Express websites and it will open your eyes I assure you. Still there is no law that says you have to hunt with a rifle that you don't want to,and I am not telling you you should shoot what I choose, that is why we choose to live in the good old USA, with our second amendment. We can choose what we want to shoot, at least for now, but I'm not sure with the demacrates, and Obamanation in the white house!
Though you and some others do not want to hunt with a double rifle, I don't think it hurts anything for people to learn what is true, and what is false about the double rifle. Facts are facts, and are no reason for concern to anyone even if they don't believe them!

............................Good hunting!

[Archetype_wyo]

You never answered the concern about the cost of the NE rounds. The fact that these guns while yes can fire two shots at the same time doesn't forgive their price. Also what about if you are prone and miss both shots? Oh crap I gotta barrel roll and reload and try to get back on sight if the animal is anywhere within 600 yards. Also there was the mention of not being able to put optics on the DBRs? What good does that do you and if you come back with the within 150yd argument you could use your regular BA rifle. The 50yd argument you might as well be bowhunting. If DBRs are so popular how come we don't see them on hunting shows?

[moosemike]

Originally Posted by DUGABOY1

Mike there is no rifle in the world that is more simple than a double rifle. Read my post above.

I will bet you my next retirement check against a doughnut that if you ask any PH in Africa is he would rather have a double rifle over the bolt rifle, he will tell you if he could afford one he would already have one.

He will tell you, as well, that a lion chargeing you from close range (50 yds is close for a lion) you will get one shot off with a bolt, and two with a double rifle. You see an African lion can cover 100 yds in 3.5 seconds from a standing start, and if he is within 50 yds, and you are shooting a bolt rifle you better make that first shot count, because you wont get another if you are his target.

The only reason African PHs use bolt rifles is because they are cheap, not because they are better! There are more double rifles in the hands of client hunters, and PHs in Africa today than there were in 1900, and every time you go there you see more doubles.

However we are talking about double rifle in the fields of North America, not Africa. I personally know as many as 40 guys who use nothing else to hunt in Texas alone, and of a couple of hundred who hunt with doubles in Europe, india, Australia, and Africa. Just visit the double rifle forums of Accurate Reloading, or Nitro Express websites and it will open your eyes I assure you. Still there is no law that says you have to hunt with a rifle that you don't want to,and I am not telling you you should shoot what I choose, that is why we choose to live in the good old USA, with our second amendment. We can choose what we want to shoot, at least for now, but I'm not sure with the demacrates, and Obamanation in the white house!
Though you and some others do not want to hunt with a double rifle, I don't think it hurts anything for people to learn what is true, and what is false about the double rifle. Facts are facts, and are no reason for concern to anyone even if they don't believe them!

............................Good hunting!

I never said I don't want to hunt with double rifles. if you go back and read my posts you will find just the opposite to be true.

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by moosemike

I never said I don't want to hunt with double rifles. if you go back and read my posts you will find just the opposite to be true.

moose, I quoted you for the content of your post,about Africa's PHs. I've spent some time in three African countries, and in severl hunting concessions in each, and I know a lot of people in the Safari business. All I was doing there was to correct a misconception that the PHs use bolt action by choice, nothing more.

The rest of the post is there for all to see, and comment on. Sorry I did not make that clear. I have no problem with anyone on this forum in any way, nor do I care what a person wants to hunt with, as long as it is legal. sorry if it seemed I was disrepecting anyone here, for I assure you that is not the case in any post of mine!

I'll try to make my posts more clear in future!

[Purdy]

Originally Posted by Archetype_wyo

You never answered the concern about the cost of the NE rounds. The fact that these guns while yes can fire two shots at the same time doesn't forgive their price. Also what about if you are prone and miss both shots? Oh crap I gotta barrel roll and reload and try to get back on sight if the animal is anywhere within 600 yards. Also there was the mention of not being able to put optics on the DBRs? What good does that do you and if you come back with the within 150yd argument you could use your regular BA rifle. The 50yd argument you might as well be bowhunting. If DBRs are so popular how come we don't see them on hunting shows?

If you own a double rifle you are probably a dedicated hunter and probably wouldn't be prone when shooting (grass, brush, etc), especially something dangerous and missing both shots?? not likely. (if you are that poor a marksman, you souldn't be hunting).

You can put a scope on a double but it changes the regulation. You can adjust the scope for one barrel but the other won't shoot to the same point.
As for bow hunting, ever tried it against something that can bite back. I know Fred Bear did it but there was a ph right behind him with a big double rifle in case things went south.

[peterdk]

Originally Posted by Archetype_wyo

You never answered the concern about the cost of the NE rounds. The fact that these guns while yes can fire two shots at the same time doesn't forgive their price. Also what about if you are prone and miss both shots? Oh crap I gotta barrel roll and reload and try to get back on sight if the animal is anywhere within 600 yards. Also there was the mention of not being able to put optics on the DBRs? What good does that do you and if you come back with the within 150yd argument you could use your regular BA rifle. The 50yd argument you might as well be bowhunting. If DBRs are so popular how come we don't see them on hunting shows?

archetype

since you can get dbl rifles in most calibers, including the 30-06 cost would not be more than your bolt.
But yes if you are talking about the big NE rounds, then yes they can be costly, that is why most of us reload in the first place.
If you are prone you turn the gun 90 degrees turn the toplever and drop two new cartg. in and you are on target again. if you feel like you need to barrel roll you will need to do it with a boltgun as well.
off course you can put optic's on a double rifle, some people choose not to, but it is entirely possible to scope your double rifle

here is a picture of one of mine, this one were a french one in 9,3 x 74r
as to your last question, do you look for dbl rifles at the shows, i know for a fact that the SCI show in reno will have lots of them.

best

peter

[peterdk]

Originally Posted by Purdy

You can put a scope on a double but it changes the regulation. You can adjust the scope for one barrel but the other won't shoot to the same point.

Purdey

that is not entirely true.

yes you can get unlucky and it can change regulation, but it might as well not, if the regulation changes you can have the barrels regulated with that scope on and everything is dandy again.

best

peter

[Archetype_wyo]

The fact of the matter is, while they are neat and it would be cool to have one in say .22 or somethng just for dinkin around; they are not as integrated into the American Firearms Industry as bolt action and semi-autos are. Whatever you may claim, they just aren't. The fact that dugaboy you have gone to Africa and hunted is cool and more power to you, but I am going throw a wild figure out there that a good 95% or more of us on this forum can't or won't be able to afford a hunting trip to Africa in our lifetimes. Yeah craftmanship goes into a gun and that can drastically dictate a gun's cost, there just isn't enough there to make me even think about spending even $700 let alone anything over that on one. I will take a Mosin Nagant with iron sights @ $100 before I take one of those fancy german silver plated double rifles. Theres just not enough competition to make budget DBRs. Like I said if they were MORE affordable I'd prolly buy one to mess around with but its just not practical with today's economy.

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by Archetype_wyo

You never answered the concern about the cost of the NE rounds.

The rounds used on Ameican game are no more expensive that what you use in your bolt rifle! Have you checked the price of factory 30-06, or the WBY factory ammo lately?

I don't shoot factory ammo in anything I shoot other than .22 rim fire, and I can buy 9.3X74R S&B factory ammo as cheap as you can get 300 win mag, but I can load it for north American game as cheaply as I can a 30 mag. Some thing else you said in your post was paraphrased "BIG CHUNKS OF LEAD"! I don't shoot big chunks of lead at anything it the USA as a rule. The largest I use for American game is a 286 gr .366 dia soft point. That is about the same as a 338 Win Mag

Now in Africa when Cape Buffalo are on the menu, I do use a 500 gr North Fork CPS expanding mono-metal solid from a 470NE. However those are handloaded as well, and are far lower in my cost than any factory ammo for that rifle. Still when you examine the cost of going to Africa to hunt, the cost of ammo is a drop in the bucket. None of that makes a difference because we are talking about hunting in North America, and doubles that are chambered for cartridges that are suitable for North American game.

The fact that these guns while yes can fire two shots at the same time doesn't forgive their price.

Arche here in bold in your post above is another misconception whether you meant it that way or not, is pervasive among thos who do not undersatnd double rifles. You never fire both barrels at the same time in a double rifle. This is for two reasons. #1 if you do you are left empty in the start of a fight, not good! and #2 fireing both barrels at the same time is hard on the rifle, not to mention your shoulder. You fire a double just like any other rifle one round at a time, you just don't have to work a bolt between shots one and two.

Also what about if you are prone and miss both shots? Oh crap I gotta barrel roll and reload and try to get back on sight if the animal is anywhere within 600 yards.

To answer the first part of the quote above, I never shoot anything from the prone, period. But working a bolt with you elbows on rocky trerrain is not as easy as you make it sound. The second part of that quote is in regard to getting back on target for an animal out to 600 yds. I do not shoot any animal at 600 yds, no matter what rifle I'm useing other that P-dogs, or paper targets. You take a shot at a standing broad side elk at 600 yds. and he takes a step just as you pull the trigger. By the time the bullet get to him, you aiming point is his belly, and now you have a gut shot elk. At that disatnce an elk or Moose may not even show signs of being hit, so you think you missed, and he steps behind a bush out of sight. The next breath out of most hunters is "DAMN I MISSED HIM!" scratch one bull, and the joker goes on to shoot another one the next day.

You may do as it pleases you but I do not shoot at big game at 600 yds!

Also there was the mention of not being able to put optics on the DBRs? What good does that do you and if you come back with the within 150yd argument you could use your regular BA rifle.

Who told you you can't put optics on a double rifle? I have a 9.3X74R O/U that is fitted with a Quick detach 4x32 scope. There are many folks who have bad eyes who mount QD scopes on even there large double rifle, not just the ones used for deer.

Nobody said the double rifle as better than a bolt rifle for shooting at at 150 yds, but it is just as good as any bolt rifle at that range, and if the first shot doesn't hit the target the second shot will be light years ahaed of the second shot from a bolt. Nobody hit his target in the hunting foeld every time he shoots.

The 50yd argument you might as well be bowhunting. If DBRs are so popular how come we don't see them on hunting shows?

Be cause you are watching the wrong TV hunting shows! Again I never said double rifles are "SO POPULAR" in the hunting fields of North America. That is the whole idea of this thread, to see why people do not understand double rifles, and the reasons they give for not useing them.

I think we have found the reason, and it doesn't supprize me at all. The reasons are that most do not know anything about them, and are basing their opinions on false information they read on deer hunting forums, and from the wive's tales printed in the gun rags by basiclly deer hunters, who don't undersatnd them either.

The above facts are the reason I think any hunting website should have a forum for double rifles, and combination guns for hunting. That kind of forum, would, over time, dispell a lot of bunk the writters, and folks who don't know better, spread at fact!

Do any of you think that a forum for "DOUBLE RIFLES, & COMBINATION GUNS" would benefite this group, and serve as means of widening the scope of this hunting website?

I think it would be a good addtion here! How say ye! ...................................all firearms are the keys to our freedom as Americans in my opinion!

[Archetype_wyo]

You misunderstood what I said about the animal being 600yds away but thats my fault, in the time it would take you to get back on sight to take another shot theres a good chance the animal is close to 600yds (a bit crazy but it can happen with elk and the like) away from you whether it be forward or side to side directionally.

As for working the bolt on rocky terrain I've done it in about a second or less and when the bottom half of me was soaked with water and it was 10 below.

Either way im done with this thread, I feel the way I feel and to me this thread didn't start as in informative one just started as an opinion getter. Maybe start with the history of double rifles, popular hunting figures(people) and places online that have pricings and maybe some companies that produce budget DBRs. I see where you are coming from 100% but beings that these things start out so high priced and their more recent origin (mid-1900s in Africa hunting dangerous game) leaves pricings high and much out of reach of the everyday US Citizen so thus they are left unwanted by the general populous.

[moosemike]

The new Merkels at Cabelas are $10,000.

[HEMI]

Thanks for shareing, remember some here think anything over 70$
for a rifle is wasteful. And that they only bought their rifles because
they were cheap and they seen them in a movie or video game.

A good double is about the same price as a fine bolt gun,
and no a savage,marlin, is not a fine bolt gun,they are good for the money but the fit finish and craftmanship is severly lacking. I am talking Sako,
Weatherby, Kimber,kerry o'day, Remington custom shop etc
These rifle cost between 3-10k, and in my opinion are worth the money.
Quality costs money, but you can feel and see the differance.
Put a rigby and a ruger beside each other and see what I mean.

[Archetype_wyo]

A fine bolt gun is 3-10k? How much better is that gun going to perform than my $400 Rem 700 in .30-06? Yeah it may be prettier but as we know with some things, cost isn't always everything. You could have a Llama 1911 outshoot a Dan Wesson or Kimber 1911 its unlikely but it can and does happen.

[HEMI]

Hey I have got some Rem 700s and would'nt part with them,
and yes they will get the job done. So will a hammer,
put a 400$ rem 700 beside one from their custom shop,see and feel
the differance. Better yet shoot 1.

A Hyundia and Ferrari are both cars right.?
Rosie O'donnal and Jessica Alba are both women right?

[Archetype_wyo]

Originally Posted by HEMI

Hey I have got some Rem 700s and would'nt part with them,
and yes they will get the job done. So will a hammer,
put a 400$ rem 700 beside one from their custom shop,see and feel
the differance. Better yet shoot 1.

A Hyundia and Ferrari are both cars right.?
Rosie O'donnal and Jessica Alba are both women right?

Except a Rem 700 won't get you laughed at.

A Hyundai will most likely get you some pity or someone asking you the gasemilage and cost.

Rosie O'Donnel only gets one job done...cleaning your fridge via her fat sandwhich eating face. I'd rather have Sylvia Saint over Jessica Alba...I like big boobies.

[moosemike]

I like what I consider to be top shelf bolt actions. Mainly custom Mausers. But i don't need or want any $3,000.00 bolt gun.

[HEMI]

You got me there!!

[Midas]

Originally Posted by HEMI

Thanks for shareing, remember some here think anything over 70$
for a rifle is wasteful. And that they only bought their rifles because
they were cheap and they seen them in a movie or video game.

A good double is about the same price as a fine bolt gun,
and no a savage,marlin, is not a fine bolt gun,they are good for the money but the fit finish and craftmanship is severly lacking. I am talking Sako,
Weatherby, Kimber,kerry o'day, Remington custom shop etc
These rifle cost between 3-10k, and in my opinion are worth the money.
Quality costs money, but you can feel and see the differance.
Put a rigby and a ruger beside each other and see what I mean.

I don't think a Remington or Weatherby would be considered a fine bolt gun either.

A push feed action on a DG rifle just isn't right

[stinkybriches]

the custom weatherbys are f'ing beautiful, worth every penny.
and nice customs always shoot, not so with rem 700's.
duga, you never answerd my question about the accuracy of the baikel doubles. im really interested about this, ive been wantinga 100 yards or less rifle for deer pigs and maybe black bear. maybe and affordable double
would fit the bill.

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by peterdk

archetype

since you can get dbl rifles in most calibers, including the 30-06 cost would not be more than your bolt.
But yes if you are talking about the big NE rounds, then yes they can be costly, that is why most of us reload in the first place.
If you are prone you turn the gun 90 degrees turn the toplever and drop two new cartg. in and you are on target again. if you feel like you need to barrel roll you will need to do it with a boltgun as well.
off course you can put optic's on a double rifle, some people choose not to, but it is entirely possible to scope your double rifle

here is a picture of one of mine, this one were a french one in 9,3 x 74r
as to your last question, do you look for dbl rifles at the shows, i know for a fact that the SCI show in reno will have lots of them.

best

peter

Hey Peter glad to see you here!
Pretty nice website, but it needs more traffic!