Poll on double rifles

[sbowers5]

Except for those wanting to just argue about the need for or the cost of owning a double rifle i think this has been one of the more informaticve and interesting threads i have read in a long time< being a long laboring gunsmith and a person that loves beautiful guns especially those that have been hand crafted i can appreciate the time and craftsmanship that goes into a fine double rifle and I would like many others here love to own and shoot one on a regular basis. Thanks mac for a good threa dand please continue to bring this type of converstaion and experience to the forum, and by the way i live in the state just north of you.
Steve

[rimfirenut]

Well I must say that this is one interesting read. DUGABOY1 has kept me interested so long that the wife is yellen at me.. As to double rifles I will attempt to answer this way since I know nothing about them, I think they are a useful work of art, all that any gun enthusiast needs to do is put one in their hands, then there is no question about, are they worth the money? Hell yes they are!! If I someday get the privilege of owning one it will be in something along the lines of a 30-30 or pos. a 38-55. nothing for long range and never scoped i just like open sights on something like this.. Thinking about it makes me warm and fuzzy all over...

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by sbowers5

Except for those wanting to just argue about the need for or the cost of owning a double rifle i think this has been one of the more informaticve and interesting threads i have read in a long time< being a long laboring gunsmith and a person that loves beautiful guns especially those that have been hand crafted i can appreciate the time and craftsmanship that goes into a fine double rifle and I would like many others here love to own and shoot one on a regular basis. Thanks mac for a good threa dand please continue to bring this type of converstaion and experience to the forum, and by the way i live in the state just north of you.
Steve

Thank you for the flowers Steve, and I have a lot of friends in the state of Oklahoma. In fact My great grandfather, on my mother's side came to Texas in 1893 from the Ok Indian Territory, with his wife two doughters, and a little boy, my Grandfather, who was six years old, and setteled in what is now South East Coleman county, Texas where I was born in the 1930s in a log ranch house my great grandfather built. So I guess I'm half OKIE my self!
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[SwedeSteve]

Thanks to all for the great read. I have really enjoyed it !! Keep the comments coming. I have handled and fired many doubles and drillings while stationed in Germany. They are true gems of the fine art of gun building !! Sadly, I have never been the owner of one. Our local Gun Shop had one of the Remingtons in 45-70, and I didn't like it much. But it would be a great rifle for up here.

[moosemike]

Unfortunately I have yet to hold a double in my hands. I've read about them for years from the great African hunters. If I ever can afford one I will buy one.

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by SwedeSteve

Thanks to all for the great read. I have really enjoyed it !! Keep the comments coming. I have handled and fired many doubles and drillings while stationed in Germany. They are true gems of the fine art of gun building !! Sadly, I have never been the owner of one. Our local Gun Shop had one of the Remingtons in 45-70, and I didn't like it much. But it would be a great rifle for up here.

SwedeSteve, That is why I'd like to see a dedicated forum here for "DOUBLE RIFLES & COMBINATION GUNS" because it would not only garner intrest in double rifles, but O/U combination guns, Drillings, Verlings, and Cape guns as well. Many of these types are far less expencive that a good double rifle, and are very useful firearms for hunting North America. The Europians discovered how usefull they are long, long ago!

Be sides double rifle I also have a pair of Cape guns that are just about perfect for hunting the canyon country of New Mexico, and West Texas where shots get long, and many areas have bird seasons open at the same time. One of the cape guns is a H. Berella 8X57JR (.318bore) on the right barrel, and a 16 ga shot barrel on the left. The rifle side pushes a 196 gr rn bullet at 2500 fps, and that is about the same as a 30-06. The shot barrel was for the short 16 ga when I got it. I opened the choke from the extra tight full, full choke to a modified choke, and lengthened the chamber for 2 3/4" shot shells. This is a side lock exposed hammer gun with 26" barrels. The rifle will print right on top of the front bead @ 100 yds, and a Brenneke slug will print right beside the rifle also @ 100 yds every time. The shot barrel use to be so tight that you had to let Blue quail get out to about 50Yds before the pattern was large enough to hit them. Now that it is opened up to Modified, it is a dove/quail gun par exelence.

The other one is a rare bird for sure! It is also an expose hammer gun but is a back action gun , and have Damascus barrels. The right barrel is chambered for a obsalete cartridge the "58 Berdan Carbine" and the shot barrel is chambered for the short 20 ga. 28" barrels. The 20 ga is a real dove getter, and the rifle side cartridge made from a shortened 577 NE case and a cast lead bullet is deadly on deer. Bot fun guns to play around with.

I've owned several drillings, but may favorite one was Kittner drilling theu the top barrels chanbered for 9.3X74R, and the bottom single barrel was a 16 ga shot barrel. It was a dream to hunt with, but sadly I traded it in ona double rifle I wanted. I certainly wish I had kept that little drilling!

I'll see if I can figure how to post some picture of some of these rifles.

...................Gotta go, wife is clammering to go to the store for someting very important, like lipstick or something even more important!

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[billy]

Originally Posted by sbowers5

Except for those wanting to just argue about the need for or the cost of owning a double rifle i think this has been one of the more informaticve and interesting threads i have read in a long time< being a long laboring gunsmith and a person that loves beautiful guns especially those that have been hand crafted i can appreciate the time and craftsmanship that goes into a fine double rifle and I would like many others here love to own and shoot one on a regular basis. Thanks mac for a good threa dand please continue to bring this type of converstaion and experience to the forum, and by the way i live in the state just north of you.
Steve

this is a good thread
and i love to daydream about cool toys i will never own.
a hovercraft with a few double rifles in the back....
keep posting those neat pictures!

[SwedeSteve]

I know watcha mean billy !!

[chesterwin]

Great thread. I'd like to see a section dedicated to Double and Combo Rifles. Someone start an actual poll on the topic and maybe it'll be added. I don't have a double rifle, yet, but that's what dreams are all about.

[Archetype_wyo]

Originally Posted by moosemike

Unfortunately I have yet to hold a double in my hands. I've read about them for years from the great African hunters. If I ever can afford one I will buy one.

Amen moose

Originally Posted by billy

this is a good thread
and i love to daydream about cool toys i will never own.
a hovercraft with a few double rifles in the back....
keep posting those neat pictures!

Billy you forgot the twin Browning .30s mounted on the sides.

[SwedeSteve]

Winchester used to make a beautiful combination gun and a double rifle years ago. 308/12 Ga I believe among others. I think it was called the Grand European or something like that.

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by SwedeSteve

Winchester used to make a beautiful combination gun and a double rifle years ago. 308/12 Ga I believe among others. I think it was called the Grand European or something like that.

SwedeSteve, The combination gun you are talking about was the Winchester Super grade O/U combo, not the grand Europian. The Grand Europian was a double rifle, not a combo. Both were made in Japan, not by Winchester. The combo came chambered for 12 ga over 30-06. Both were made on the Win 101 shotgun action also made in Japan by Kodensha!

I have one of the Grand Europians in it's fitted case chambered for 9.3X74R, fitted with factory Rechnagle Quick detach scope mounts, a 4X32 MM scope, and express iron sights. Action is engraved with a Wild boar, deer and big horn sheep.

The combo guns were OK, because the barrels didn't have to be regulated to shoot together one being a 35 Yd shotgun, and the other being a 100yd plus rifle. The double rifles, however were regulated in a JIG, and method that simply does not work. Both the barrels on mine shoot very good individual groups, but they shoot in two different zip codes from each other. It costs around $1500 to re-regulate these little rifles, if it happens to be one that was soft soldered on the front wedge! If it is one of the ones that were brazed together they can't be re-regulated. Un fortunately most were brazsd, but I lucked out getting one that was soft soldered.

The only companies in the USA, that make combination guns is Savage, and the little survival gun made by Springfield armory. There are a few small unknown makers of double rifles, but the only two with any credibility are B, Searcy, and the California Rigby. IMO, the only one of those worth looking at are the Searcy rifles.

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[hunter16935]

#1 is false; both barrels are acurate at only one distane but it verys from close to 100 yards or so slight ajustment can be made ( kentucky windage) for shots a verying distances
#2 is false; most are chambered for dangerous game because it makes an amazing self defense gun with a split secong follow up shot they come in all calibers as they are almost exclusivly custom made
#3 is false; they can be used for any game (also coverd in #2)
#4 is true; atleast for most of the american market. we want reliable guns that hold as many shots as possible that dont cost thousands of dollars. and as double rifles are almost exclusively custom made that drives the price up. each barrel has to be placed just right, so that both barrels are acurate at a set distance
#5 is true; see #4
#6 is false; anyone can own them if they are willing to pay the price
#7 i am unsure of this as i can not know what other people believe, however i know i have an understanding of double rifles and personally would like to own one however i cant see it happening in the near future as my buget isnt that loose.

[DUGABOY1]

#1 Double rifles are only accurate at one distance, very short!

#2 They are chambered for cartridges that are too powerful for North American game!

#3 Double rifles are only useful for dangerous game, so are limited to Brown bear, and up!

#4 Double rifles are too expensive!

#5 There is no reason for double rifle to cost that much!

#6 Only rich people own double rifles!

#7 Most folks in the USA do not understand how double rifles work!

Originally Posted by hunter16935

#1 is false; both barrels are acurate at only one distane but it verys from close to 100 yards or so slight ajustment can be made ( kentucky windage) for shots a verying distances

You are correct #1 IS FALSE! Though it is false it is not because of the reason you state.

You see, when a double rifle is properly regulated the barrels shoot SIDE BY SIDE no matter how far you shoot! Properly regulated the center of each barrel's individual group stays on it's own side of the aiming point. It is true the like a single barreled rifle the groups get larger as they fly down range, and since the barrel's center on bore are only less than 1/2 inche apart as the group gets bigger down range, the right side of the left barrel's group will spill over into the the left side of the of the right barrel's group, and vice versa for the right barrel's group. The point of aim is half way the centers of both groups, no matter the range. This is called a composite group, and is usually a slightly egg shaped group of both barrels, but the centers never cross at any distance. This is the barrel/load regulation, but there are two things called regulation where double rifles are concerned.

The other is the sight regulation. This is the one that gives the people the idea that the rifle's shots from each barrel cross it the distance stated as the distance the sights are regulated for. This is however not the case. this statement means only that the main standing sight is filed to be "dead on" for center between the barrels, and for elevation, but certainly dose not mean the rifle is not accurate at longer range by simple hold over, or the flip up of a rear sight that is cut for the elevation at the distance engraved on the flip-up. and the windage does not change!

The above answer is simply a correcting of the missguided thinking that a double rifle is not accurate at any given range no more than a single barreld rifle with the same irons sights.

#2 AND #3 are false; most are chambered for dangerous game because it makes an amazing self defense gun with a split secong follow up shot they come in all calibers as they are almost exclusivly custom made
#3 is false; they can be used for any game (also covered in #2)

#2 and #3 are FALSE, because double rifles are chambered for very small chamberings for very small game, and as the game to be hunted gets bigger, and/or more dangerous the chamberings get larger as well, just like any other hunting rifle. It is true that they make very good self defense rifles, and also because for smaller game they are as quick for the second shot as as an auto and there is notheing to work to get off that second shot, but the back trigger. Actually far more double rifles are chambered for cartridges that are very good for deer sise game that for elephant, or Cape Buffalo.

#4 is true; atleast for most of the american market. we want reliable guns that hold as many shots as possible that dont cost thousands of dollars. and as double rifles are almost exclusively custom made that drives the price up. each barrel has to be placed just right, so that both barrels are acurate at a set distance

#4 Is true Double rifles are expensive, even the off the shelf double rifles, but they are expensive for a ligitimate reason! The double rifle can't be made by amchines like a push feed Remington bolt rifle. No matter isf theya re made to fit the customer, or made for one size fits all, they still have to be made by hand. The CNC machines can only do the hog work done by shop appies for general shaping of parts. the fitting, and finishe has to be done by very skilled artisens who could make a steel marbel out of the cube of steel with nothing more than a file. You know what a machinest charges pro hour for bench time, and when you consider it takes a minimum of 400 skilled man hours to make a double rifle, it is a wonder they aren't more expensive. It is also true that a bolt rifle holds more ammo, but there in no firearm ever invented that is more reliable that a double rifle. That includes the very well made custom bolt rifles with CRF actions. The bolt rifle that can be relied on the work everytime without fail, fit the shooter, and be accurate at the same time will cost you at least $5000, and off the shelf double rifles that are hand made, but not fancy can be bought for $5000 as well. The fact that a bolt, or lever holds more ammo is not a plus in the field, when a deer jumps you will get off two AIMED shots with the double quite easily, but in the same amount of time it takes for two from the double, you will get one with a bolt. Even four shots can be made with a double as fast as with a bolt rifle both shot by equally profecient shooters. So the fact that a bolt fifle holds 4 shots in the box, you will rarely get them all off at one target, and if you do, and don't put him down, what you need is practice, not more ammo!

#5 is true; see #4

#5 Is not true, see explanation above!

#6 is false; anyone can own them if they are willing to pay the price

]#6 is false because double rifles are not really expensive, when you consider what you are getting for your money, and pro-rated over the years it will be as good as the day it came off the makers table. I have double rifle that is 107 yrs old and it is till just as tight as the day it was finished in 1892. You could probably load a fraighter with the meat that rifle has collected.

#7 i am unsure of this as i can not know what other people believe, however i know i have an understanding of double rifles and personally would like to own one however i cant see it happening in the near future as my buget isnt that loose.

You have SOME understanding of double rifles, and you just learned a little more, but you are still under the misconception that double rifles are only accurate at one range, and that is deffinately not true! A double rifle is as accurate as any other hunting rifle that is properly loaded, and shot by the man who REALLY understands double rifles, no matter the range!.

In another post later I will go into how regulation of the barrels works, but it is a lengthly subject, and will take some typing!

.......................................NEXT TIME!

[Archetype_wyo]

Dugaboy the average man/woman cannot afford to run out and buy a doublerifle and for good reason.

Take for instance your average economy sedan say the Ford Focus its good on gas it does its job to a T and works well for the average family. Now skip to the Rolls Royce Ghost which costs substantially more and does the same job not much better and for what? Probably a good 10 times the cost? Now granted the Double-Rifle does do its Dangerous Game job excellently and with good reason considering the Dangerous Game calibers are close to and greater than a half inch. For North American game the Double Rifle just doesn't suit the average man. Even if you are going to hunt Griz or Kodiak Bears you won't go wrong with say a .300Wby or the .300Ultra as they can both be used for Elk and Moose and the like.

[skiking]

The only reason I don't own a double is the cost. I would kill to have a nice double chambered for 30-30 or 7-30 Waters, that would make one sweet deer rifle.

[moosemike]

A double rifle would really get expensive for me. After buying the thing I'd have to pay somebody to carry it for me, like they do in Africa. Those things are heavy.

[TeeRex]

If I had the money I'd have one. A lot of the ones I have seen are beautiful guns. I'm sure if I could afford one I wouldn't be too concerned about the cost of feeding it.

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by Archetype_wyo

Dugaboy the average man/woman cannot afford to run out and buy a doublerifle and for good reason.

Arche that is true! There are many things one can't simply go out and buy something that is not needed to keep the home firs burning. It is true that many double rifles are very expensive, and are out of reach for anyone except very wealthy people. However the price range of double rifles run far less on the bottom than your Ford Focus, and even on the top end far less than the Rolls. What this means is the guy who must buy a used car, rather than a new one is going to pay more for a used up junker that will be in the junk yard in two or three more years, than for a good used double rifle that is 15 yrs old and will still be shooting game for his grand childeren's grand children.

Take for instance your average economy sedan say the Ford Focus its good on gas it does its job to a T and works well for the average family. Now skip to the Rolls Royce Ghost which costs substantially more and does the same job not much better and for what? Probably a good 10 times the cost?

As stated above many will buy a Ford Focus simply because that is what they can afford, but most will want something a little better. They will likely buy new or good used Toyota Camrey or a Tacoma 4x4 crew cab pickup, and forget the dealership because they don't break too often. Even the Focus will set them back about $20K for a new one, or $14K for for the three yrs old used one. The same applies to hunting rifles. You can buy an $800 new bolt simi-auto, or pump rifle in an american game caliber, but that bare bones bolt etc: rifle may or may not be what he wants. Just like the Camrey ot Tacoma crew cab 4x4 that he sacrifices to buy, or the bass boat that he wants over a john boat, The good used double rifle can be bought for far less than even a good outboard motor for that big bass boat, but we are not talking about cars or boats here, we are talking about double rifles, and other than price why most people in the USA have such dumb ideas about double rifles! Like you, most just use the price as an excuse to say well they aren't suited for hunting North American game, when what you really mean is, you don't care enough about the rifles you buy to buy anything better than a stamped out Military look alike, that the gang bangers think are the cats meow. Most long time hunters want the best they can come up with. I don't mean those who hunt on the internet, and shoot on the local range, and talk big talk about hunting, I mean people who work to be able to really hunt, not only deer but everything they can, in many places far beyond their local fireing range, or ten acre deer lease.

Now granted the Double-Rifle does do its Dangerous Game job excellently and with good reason considering the Dangerous Game calibers are close to and greater than a half inch. For North American game the Double Rifle just doesn't suit the average man. Even if you are going to hunt Griz or Kodiak Bears you won't go wrong with say a .300Wby or the .300Ultra as they can both be used for Elk and Moose and the like.

You are correct that the double rifle with a proper chambering, is about as good as it gets for hunting dangerous game even for Griz, and Brown bear, and far better than any bolt rifle for that purpose. However, you offer in opposition, two chamberings,( 300Wby & 300Ultra) not rifles to compare with the double rifle. In fact those two chamberings are not particularly the best choice for the big bears either, and the rifles both are chambered in a PUSH FEED rifles, which is not suited for any dangreous game in any chambering. The thought you seem to be dwelling on is that all double rifles are chambered for dangerous game cartridges, and as some one above stated "THOSE THINGS ARE HEAVY" . This no more true than all bolt rifles are heavy and are chambered for 1/2" bore diameters.

Far more double rifles are chambered for deer size game than the ones made for dangerous game, and can be bought new little more that a nice Camrey class bolt rifle,(grade just above a Wal lMart special, you know just above the focus level ) and used for the price of a 15 yrs old usd car or pick up. The price is not the only reaosn doube rifles are not seen in the fieald of Noth America, but simply because tha average deer hunter simply has a lot of missconcieved ideas about them. You can get a O/U or S/S double rifle in almost any deer size chambering you'd want, and In Europe, you rarely see a bolt rifle in the deer fields. if they are not a break top single shot they will likely be a drilling, or combination gun, or an O/U , or S/S double rifle with a good light gathering scope mounted. The reason the prices are as high as they are for this type of double rifle is because so few people buy them, and so few people buy them because so few people understand them.

Heavy??????????? I have a two 9.3X74R double rifles that weigh 8.3 pounds, and 8 pounds even, many of the smaller chamberings weigh in at under 7 pounds loaded with scope attached. Anyone who needs someone else to to carry an 8 pound rifle needs st stay home, and knit sweaters.

.........And by the way I have never seen any one carry the client's rifle for him, they certainly do not carry mine. If you happen onto very close Brown Bear, here,or a Cape Buffalo in Aftica, your rifle would leave with the tracker as he runs away to climb a tree. I carry my own rifle, so it is in my hands when a shot is offered, or IN FACT, NEEDED!

[DUGABOY1]

The above rifle is a mod 140E-1 Merkel side by side with selective ejectors. Weighs 8.3 pounds loaded, and has 24 inch barrels.

Here is a fine example of the double rifle that is perfect for North America. Chambered for 7X65R, .30 Blaser, 8X57IRS, or 9.3X74R , all rimmed cartridges which are best suited to double rifle would cover any type hunting you would care to do in North America.

The rifle is also chambered for .308 Win, and 30-06 if that is what one wants, but they are rimless cartridges a,d can on occasion be probablematic in a double rifle. However if you never intend hunting any dangerous game that isn't a problem.

My choice of all these chamberings is the 9.3X74R, it is a fine deer, and Elk round, and is up to handleing anything the North American hunting fields has to offer, including the Big brown bear.

Quick detach scope rings can be had for this rifle, and they will return to zero after removal of the scope for any reason, and re-insatlled. This rifle shows a single trigger, but it comes with double triggers as well, a better choice.

I have one of these rifles chambered for 9.3X74R, and it is the rifle I used to shoot at the Houston HOOT & SHOOT early last month. This rifle is a hog getter, and deer dropper, and an Elk reacher, but is still big enough to be legal for Cape Buffalo as well !

These particular rifle can be found in good shape used for around $5k , but there are others chambered for the same chamberings, that can be bought for less brand new. Cabela's has a little O/U 8X57IRS double rifle that sells brand new for 0ne dollar less than $2K If you can find one of these used you might get it for $1500 or less, about the same as a Ruger 375 H&H rifle.

This is just a couple of choices. The French made Chapuis are very well made double rifle that are very competatively priced, and can be had in smaller chamberings as well, and make very good hunting rifles for this country! Then we get all the way down the little Russian made Baikal double rifle chambered for 45-70, and 30-06 in the $800 range new, so double rifles being out of reach for American hunters is simply not true!

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