Poll on double rifles

[DUGABOY1]

Poll: What is the main reason you think double rifles are not used more for hunting in North America?

#1 Double rifles are only accurate at one distance, very short!

#2 They are chambered for cartridges that are too powerful for North American game!

#3 Double rifles are only useful for dangerous game, so are limited to Brown bear!

#4 Double rifles are too expensive!

#5 There is no reason for double rifle to cost that much!

#6 Only rich people own double rifles!

#7 Most folks in the USA do not understand how double rifles work!


You vote Each number, true or false and why you think your answer is correct. This poll is to see what level of understanding on the subject of double rifle is here, and to learn the individual reasons folks don’t think they are a viable platform for North America. That, and to start a dialog that may solve some of the misconceptions, and to confirm some others.

[Kaybe]

`I think that they are too expensive and expensive to feed. Also, you don't NEED a 600 nitro express to hunt anything in North America. Cost is the key here. Just my opinion.

[338RUM]

because here in America we want American firearms, the doubles are traditionally an English firearm, also doubles look weird with 2 little holes at the end, and big holed doubles usually mean big power and lets face it... Bambi does not need a 470 Nitro to bring him down, and if he charges it is because you were teasing him with apples

[nathangdad]

there are some double rifles I have seen in .30-06.

However, the overwhelming price of these type guns just kills them for the American market.

In all honesty I will state that I believe modern metallurgy and manufacturing techniques could turn out double rifles on a similar price basis to double barrelled shotguns.

At a similar price range to a good double barrelled shotgun I would buy a double rifle in .243 Winchester.

[338RUM]

yeah but doubles look funny with little holes! There are cheap doubles Remington made one but the barrels did not shoot together, it is just like the double BP rifle from cabelas, the barrels do not shoot together

[Palladin8]

1 - 6 I would say false. #7 I would say true. Reasons being
#1 some double rifles have some adjustment for the barrels to regulate I think it's called. You can also mount a scope on them (shudder).
#2 has been touched on already. There are doubles chambered in many no DG calibers.
#3 If you owned a double rifle you could use it to hunt anything with overkill or not. People will argue but there are people who use 300Win Mags on whitetail and don't think it's overkill.
#4 Double rifles are more expensive than your average bolt rifle but some can be had for a reasonable price.
#5 People spend thousands of dollars on what one might find useless but the person spending the money doesn't feel that way. Anyone who collects antiques for example.
#6 They are not owned by rich people exclusively. If someone wants one bad enough they will save their money and buy one.
#7 I agree with. Most people see the sticker price of ammo and the cost of the gun and look no further at a double.

These are only my opinions so if someone disagrees with me than they are entitled to do so.

[okami515]

I agree palladin8, there are doubles out there in any caliber its just a matter of price. I think here in america we are just so used to our bolts and levers that we think thay are the better choices. they can be found just about anywhere. I can say that I have only ever seen one double, Actually a drillings, in my area. As far as the price idea I don't think it really matters. Trap is very big around here and the price of some of those is around the same as a double.

[Metronome]

The double barreled rifle was an answer to a problem that doesn't exist anymore. Drillings, Doubles and Vierlings are all neat on paper, but modern technology relegated them to the snooty custom makers and those who can afford their prices. Lobbing a larger ball of lead is no longer needed, as modern propellants and bullets can perform far beyond their calibers. A .600 Nitro is an interesting novelty, but nothing more than a bragging right for most.

The only thing appealing to me are simple Combination guns like the Savage 24V or Springfield M-6, which make a very effective tool for everyday life in the field.

[Archetype_wyo]

American Bolt Action/Saiga Semi-Auto does it for me. Nuff sed.

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by Kaybe

`I think that they are too expensive and expensive to feed. Also, you don't NEED a 600 nitro express to hunt anything in North America. Cost is the key here. Just my opinion.

Your quote of #2, and #4 as the most reason these rifles are not popular in North America, and both are correct to some extent!

#2 They are chambered for cartridges that are too powerful for North American game!

#2 is true that a 600NE double rifle is not needed in North America. However, a 600NE double rifle is not needed in any country in the world, and is nothing more than a "LOOK AT ME !" novelty to empress the locals down at the fireing range. Double rifles are available in almost every cartridge from .22 Hornet, to 700NE so there is not need for anyone to use anycaliber that is too large for the animal he hunts.

#4 Double rifles are too expensive!

#4 also is true to some extent, especially if you think all double rifles are chambered for cartridges like the 600NE. Most 600NE rifle will set you back a minimum of $75K. However, that is because the 600NE rifle is only built to special order, and there probabaly less than 50 rifles so chambered in the world, and the 700NE no more than 15 rifles. Any product the requires the amount of hours (aprox, 500 man hours)of extremely high level of skilled labor , with no more customer base that will produce only 50 rifles is going to be a high priced product. These translate to an exclusive toy of the rich, but most double rifles that are made for hunting are no where near that price, or chambered in such a useless cartridge.

None of the above is any reason that a double rifle is not suitable for hunting whitetail, or even coyotes in the USA. Though the power, and cost of the ones you mention are very high, there are custom made bolt rifles that are very high priced as well. The base price for a D'Arcy Echols custom bolt rifle with a synthetic stock starts at $5000 and goes up to over $10,000 for a 4A wood. That fact doesn't mean you have to buy one, when you can buy a very dependable dangerous game double rifle, or Bolt rifle, for less, that will do the same job. I don't see everyone in the woods with a D'Arcy Echols rifles, even for Brown Bear, any more than I see folks hunting whitetail with a 600NE.

............................More down the line!

[Purdy]

I once owned an over/under double in .270 Win. It was a pretty gun but I could never get it to shoot together and with the scope attached, you had to sight in for only one barrel and use it exclusively. Finally sold it.

Oh yes, I plan to hunt deer this season with my 450-3 1/4 BPE. Heavy timber and relatively short ranges, we'll see how it goes.

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by 338RUM

because here in America we want American firearms, the doubles are traditionally an English firearm, also doubles look weird with 2 little holes at the end, and big holed doubles usually mean big power and lets face it... Bambi does not need a 470 Nitro to bring him down, and if he charges it is because you were teasing him with apples

#2 They are chambered for cartridges that are too powerful for North American game!

You are correct that many of the early double rifles were made in England, but far more were made in Europe in places like Belgium, Germany, and Austria. However, there is no long gun that is as alive in your hands as a well mad double rifle, and noting is faster for the second AIMED shot on game than a double rifle. The double rifle that fits it's owner, simply becomes an extention of his body, and is designed for instinctive shooting with noting between the shots but to change triggers. I have a little 8X57JR double rifle that weighs only 7 pounds that pushes a 196 gr bullet at 2500 fps, and can be tracked on running game like a fine shotgun. I hit running jackrabbits with that rifle with monotinous regularity, and wild hogs or deer, and elk are not going to be safe on the run within 200 yds. The ammo is no more expensive that 30-06 ammo, and kills large Elk and Moose far better than the old 06.

The reason double rifles were made in these countries was because all those countries are the oldest firearms makers in the world, and hence have the most skilled firearms makers. That is all firearms, not just double rifles. The main reason the double rifles were made in these countries is because they all had holdings in Africa,and India, where dangerous game was behind every bush, and nothing ever made to fire from the shoulder is a better platform for dangerous game, from little 100 pound Leopard, to six ton elephant.

Americans had no need for a rifle bigger than a 45-70 for most of the game in this continant,baring the Large bears of the north country, and we had no holdings in any country that had any animal more dangerous than a Brown Bear. Even on the bears we have a double rifle in a chambering like 405 Win, or 348 Win would be the nuts.

All the firearms made by American companies started life as war weapons, for protecting ones life form Indians, or the British, that were just pressed into hunting to feed the family early, and for sport latter.

The double rifle, on the other hand was made from the start for hunting, and has been used for nothing else since it's inception. The double rifle is the only TRUE HUNTING rifle in the world.

For Dangerous game it is the most reliable rifle ever invented, and for whitetail Muledeer, Moose, black bear, and elk, nothing is better in the woods where two quick shots are needed pretty often!

...............................

[moosemike]

If they weren't so cost prohibitive I'd own one in 450 N.E. I don't like the 450/400 or 470 N.E. as much because I think the cartridges look like giant 30-30's. The .450 NE looks to me like what a big bore cartridge should look like.

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by Palladin8

1 - 6 I would say false. #7 I would say true. Reasons being
#1 some double rifles have some adjustment for the barrels to regulate I think it's called. You can also mount a scope on them (shudder).

The above is true, but it is limited to very small chamberings for the most part. It is a good feature but most folks use it wrong. They want to change it every time that go out to hunt. The key to regulating the barrels on a double rifle with or without the manual regulating feature is to find the load that shoots the tightest individual groups in both barrels, then bring the barrels together with the jack scew, and then use that load for everything.

Without the adjustable regulation, the regulation is built into the barrels at the factory, for a load listed on the test target. The key here is to develope a load that shoots to the regulation, and use that load for everything.

#2 has been touched on already. There are doubles chambered in many non DG calibers. If you owned a double rifle you could use it to hunt anything with overkill or not. People will argue but there are people who use 300Win Mags on whitetail and don't think it's overkill.

As you say you can hunt American game with any chambering you want, because there is no such animal as "OVER KILL" ! Believe me when I say a 750 gr .577 bullet will drop the biggest elk or moose that ever lived in his tracks, and do far less meat damage than a 300Win Mag. However unless you just happen to have a 577NE double, and want to hunt something with it, there is certainly no need for a rifle that big, but dead is dead, no matter what you use to bring it about. Still there are far better double rifle for that purpose than a 577NE.

#4 Double rifles are more expensive than your average bolt rifle but some can be had for a reasonable price.
#5 People spend thousands of dollars on what one might find useless but the person spending the money doesn't feel that way. Anyone who collects antiques for example.
#6 They are not owned by rich people exclusively. If someone wants one bad enough they will save their money and buy one.

#7 I agree with. Most people see the sticker price of ammo and the cost of the gun and look no further at a double.

The above is so true! Look at the folks who spend $75K for a BMW, when a Toyota is just as good, but costs $20K. Or the guy who spends $25K on a bass boat when a $10K bass tracker works just as well.

There are double rifle that are fine for deer hunting from $700 brand new, to as high as you want to go, just like single barrel rifles! You can killdeer with an H&R single shot, or you can buy a real custom bolt rifle for what ever you can afford to pay.

You can buy O/U Double rifles of good quality for under $3K in good chamberings, and there is a well made S/S double coming soon that will sell in from 9.3X74R for less than $3K brand new, to a max of about $5K for the large bores, and fancy wood, and engraving. Far less than most bass boats, and that double rifle will still be takeing game 75 years after that bass boat, or BMW is in the junk yard.

These are only my opinions so if someone disagrees with me than they are entitled to do so.

Opinions are what I'm looking for, so bring them on!

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by Archetype_wyo

American Bolt Action/Saiga Semi-Auto does it for me. Nuff sed.

Now here is a man who is not undecided!

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by Purdy

I once owned an over/under double in .270 Win. It was a pretty gun but I could never get it to shoot together and with the scope attached, you had to sight in for only one barrel and use it exclusively. Finally sold it.

I f you don't mind me asking what make was your O/U double rifle, and what other chamberings were available? The key to regulation is the load. But anything that changes the weight of the rifle causes the barrel flip to change as well, and so a load has to be worked up for that use. How did the rifle shoot wit the Iron sights? If it didn't shoot wel there either I can almost surely tell you the brand name of the rifle!

Oh yes, I plan to hunt deer this season with my 450-3 1/4 BPE. Heavy timber and relatively short ranges, we'll see how it goes.

My friend that is what that rifle was made for! Deer hunting. In the time of the black powder double rifles the .450 was considered a small bore, and not made for use on dangerous game. They are fine deer elk, and black bear rifles at fairly close range. Thier range limitation is not the fact that it is a double rifle, but that it is simply not powerfull enough for distance, or dangerous game!

I have a Westley Richards 500/450 #1 Express double rifle which is a black powder rifle sold out of the London store in 1892, and it is a deer, and black bear over bait shooter, and fun to hunt with!

..................Good hunting and let me welcome you to the DRSS (Double Rifle Shooter's Society) with your Purdy!

[DUGABOY1]

Originally Posted by moosemike

If they weren't so cost prohibitive I'd own one in 450 N.E. I don't like the 450/400 or 470 N.E. as much because I think the cartridges look like giant 30-30's. The .450 NE looks to me like what a big bore cartridge should look like.

That is certainly a personal choice, that is justified simply because that is what you want the cartridge to look like.

In practical terms, however, that choice holds no water, because you are listing three vastly differen't power ranges!

I'm not saying the 450NE 3 1/4" is not a good cartridge, it is a fine cartridge which set the bar for the smokeless NE cartridges for dangerous game in Africa. Anything the 470NE class cartridges will do the 450NE will do as well. The fact that it uses a .458 dia bullet is a plus as well for bullet selection. It is more versitile than the 470NE class rounds, but less versitile than the 450/400Ne 3" , and 3 1/3" for use world wide for large dangerous, and deer, moose, and elk and all plains game world wide.

I have a 470NE, and I'd rather have a 450/400NE 3" for all around hunting of everything. But if I hunted only Cape Buffalo, and Elephant then I'd rather have a 500NE 3" 12 pound double rifle.

I have hunted evrything in North America with just about every cartridge chambered in a double rifle at one time or another, and they are all good, but some are limited to specialized use. I assure you any animal hit properly with a 500 gr bullet from a 470NE is a death ray from a a 75 pound whitetail to a six ton African bull elephant!

The most usefull cartridge to have in a double rifle for North America is a 9.3X74R. With it's 286 gr bullet soft or solid @ 2450 FPS will handle anything North America has to offer, from tit mouse to Caostal Brown Bear!

[Shootester]

I've never even seen one with my own eyes, atleast not that I can recall. Even if I did have a chance to buy one, I would want to shoot it first and get a feel for it, but as of right now I will have to say that I will stick with bolt action.

[Purdy]

RE: over and under double: It was a Perugini-Visini purchased from Wm Larkin Moore and it wouldn't shoot together with any factory loads or any handloads I tried. It had a claw mounted Kahles 4X and either barrel would do alright with it but you had to decide which one you wanted to use when sighting in and stick to it.

An aside: a friend of mine had a custom gun made in Ferlach with a set of 16 ga. barrels and a set of rifle barrels in .348 Win.

[Whootsinator]

I just see it as unnecessary.