As Steve points out, we seem to have some (Mosin) wires crossed here. The gun Steve built for me is a 7x57 Mauser built on a VZ-24 (a Mauser) action.
Bob,
You are certainly right and it is solely my responsibility. Sorry.
I think the VZ-24 is a superb rifle. Almost anything the Czechs do has a lot of merit in it somehow. I own three firearms made by them, the CZ-70, CZ-52, And CZ-58. My MN, as you know, is 7.62 (sorta) so it would seem that that is my favorite calibre as well. While the 30 cal has merits of it's own, that is so very not true.
My intro to reloading explored the topic of cartridge "efficiency" and it seems that the 30-06 cartridge isn't efficient and doesn't lend itself well to highly accurate shooting. That disappointed me, no small amount, as that calibre is seen as the American Standard by almost everyone and I want to cheer for the home team like anybody else. That was the conclusion in the various articles I read more than 20 years ago. With my first Swede, my personal favorite became the 6.5 X 55. No matter what Wildcat they made using the 6.5 the cartridge seemed to work. I read about 6.5-06s, 6.5-08s, 6.5-7mm Mags and there must have been others through the years. Non seemed to catch on. Currently there is a 6.5-284 that is proving to have outstanding accuracy for long range shooting. It is such a successful Wildcat that Savage is putting out rifles in that calibre and it, as would be suspected, is getting great reviews. 6.5 seems to be crawling towards the 6PPC though that will rule for a long time, apparently. The only thing that sets the 22PPS, 6PPC and 6.5 apart is their use of a short fat cartridge. There is undoubtedly a ton of other stuff, technical and beyond me, but that was mt take.
Then came the Russian Biathlon gun story that was circulated recently. Turns out the Russians only beat the Finns, their arch rival, in one Olympics and that was with their 6.5 X 54R Mosin Nagant Wildcat. Its superiority was unquestioned but it was only used for one year cause the Olympic Committee changed the rules and standardized the calibre for the Biathlon to the 22 LR. That is what I recall of the story and the history of the 6.5 X 54R fades into time. The only reason the 6.5 by 284 works so well is the dimension of the brass.. Length, width, taper, shoulder, neck length, volume and calibre. Some sort of magic formula where the plan comes together. I don't understand that science but I do know some of the terms and that it exists. That the 6.5 X54R did such an outstanding job indicates to me that that the efficiency of the 54R brass must approach that "magic" sweet spot. But that excludes the chance that the Ruskies significantly altered the 54R brass in the Olympic MN. They could have changed the volume and shoulder angle and still called a 54R and that's just a couple that occur to my pedestrian mind.
When you said re-calibre or re-chamber to 7 X 57 I read that as 7 X 54...we were on the MNs but the "gunsmithing section" covers all the calibres in the Forum. I didn't switch gears as i rarely visit any other forum besides the MN. Sorry for the "Haywire". The confusion was my fault entirely. Thank you for your excellent posts and clarifications.
You are certainly right and it is solely my responsibility. Sorry.
...
My intro to reloading explored the topic of cartridge "efficiency" and it seems that the 30-06 cartridge isn't efficient and doesn't lend itself well to highly accurate shooting. ...
Currently there is a 6.5-284 that is proving to have outstanding accuracy for long range shooting. ...
...
Good luck with your VZ 24.
John
...
well, I'm certain that 30-06 aficionados would point out that the records all use to be held by the -06, so it's all relative. It can be very accurate and we're probably only talking fractions of MOA. I personally shot a 199/200 9X at 600 yds with an iron sight Garand so you can't tell me it's not an accurate cartridge.
But things have indeed progressed to the 308, various Lapuas, and more recently the 6.5x284. I agree that's an interesting cartridge and I think an Arisaka rechamber to that caliber might be great fun.
I'm a hunter and gun (semi)nut and not a target shooter per se any more and the 6.5 seems to kill all out of proportion to what it should. However I've recently come across some stuff that suggests the .25s are even more lethal so a 250-3000 or a 257 Roberts would be first in that particular queue. Therefore I think a line up of 6mm Rem, 257 Roberts, 7x57, and 8x57 would cover everything in North America all using the same parent case. (the 9.3x57 might be included too, but that would be gravy).
Hmmmmm. .30-06 inefficient and not highly accurate? I guess my Browning BAR MkII and my dad's Rem. Gamemaster never got the memo. There' alot of dead deer that might dispute that also.
__________________ No Promises, No Shortcuts, No Retreat, No Surrender......
Mike
it seems that the 30-06 cartridge isn't efficient and doesn't lend itself well to highly accurate shooting.
That's simply your opinion, and as is becoming habitual with several of your posts, falls far short of being factual.
Well sir, it seems that Carlos Hathcock, knew better than that, as would Mas Ayoob, and several others. I would suggest you give careful thought to bantering your opinions around with the likes of Mas Ayoob.... yer liable to be the guy who should have kept quiet, and not proved himself a fool.
That's simply your opinion, and as is becoming habitual with several of your posts, falls far short of being factual.
Well sir, it seems that Carlos Hathcock, knew better than that, as would Mas Ayoob, and several others. I would suggest you give careful thought to bantering your opinions around with the likes of Mas Ayoob.... yer liable to be the guy who should have kept quiet, and not proved himself a fool.
You Sir are looking to be not a good fit on the Friendliest Gun Forum. There has been a misunderstanding in that your opinion of me is none of my business and I'll thank you to not share it. You have an inordinate penchant to drift wildly from the topic. Mine or any others opinion is simply that...an opinion. And it's not subject to yours or any other others approval so long as it is civil and within the bounds of the forum rules. It is especially disappointing that such intolerance comes from a Marine that has put his life on the line for our great nation and to protect our freedom of expression and speech and a Marine that has served in the Republic of Viet Nam, with appropriate ribbons, and claims credit for serving in the Yangsze River Campain in China in 1929 thru 1932. You should probably scrub the China ribbon as it was declared obsolete in 1940 and replaced with the China Service ribbon.
Actually I am just jerking your chain about the China ribbon. I sat down with a Gunney here in town and we figured out you were trying to show your http://www.usamilitarymedals.com/nav...bbon-p-156.htm Unit Commendation ribbon. My monitor shows the center field on the ribbon you sent me as "dark blue". Given that my printer also agrees I can assume that you mistakenly selected the China ribbon or the program you use to print your awards isn't up to Marine Corps standards. I am only offering this as an example of how things get so far off track and any expectation on your part that my opinion is 100% factual is unreasonable. In that regard, we all live in glass houses. This is the Yangsze River Valley ribbon. Yangtze Service Medal Ribbon (Model #:633 YANGTZ-RIBB) see where a mistake could be made? Or has been made. Marines are very "fussy" about this sort of thing and I would expect you to thank me for bringing it to your attention and then subscribe to a different graphic service that is up to USMC standards.
I think Ayoob supports my opinion more than yours. He assigns the popularity of the 30-06 to the availability of ammunition "anywhere" you might travel. He also makes the point that due to the Olympic tournament assortment of ammunition the 06 is the most versatile rifle available in the USA. He also says that the 06 was superseded by the 308 in match competition and the 308 was replaced by the 223 and we all know that the 6mm PPC knocked them all down...at least for a while. Now the 6.5 X 284 is replacing the 6mm in shooting beyond 300 yards or so. Ayoob doesn't mention the 6 or 6.5 but simply refers to "the modern short fat cartridges" that rule the competition. He went on to say that the 30 06 was only used in competitions that were open to "only" 30 06. Read over that Ayoob article you referenced and I think you will see what I am talking about. Great info, by te way.... thanks.
I asked that you take this sort of discussion to PM. I want to repeat that request. Lets allow this thread to return to the subject of 30 cal, and that includes the 7.64 X 54R in the family. Part of my question was "is the 54R brass" better at supporting accuracy and efficiency that the 06? Still no readings on that.
Accuracy in any caliber depends on who's at the trigger and a number of other factors. As far as '06 to .7.62x54R, I'd say the rifle and shooter combined would have to answer that. Be nice please.
__________________ NRA ENDOWMENT MEMBER - Support Our Troops - Land of the Free, because of the Brave.
well, I'm certain that 30-06 aficionados would point out that the records all use to be held by the -06, so it's all relative. It can be very accurate and we're probably only talking fractions of MOA. I personally shot a 199/200 9X at 600 yds with an iron sight Garand so you can't tell me it's not an accurate cartridge.
And I wouldn't try to do that simply because it would be a false statement on my part. And I didn't say that at all. What I said was "My intro to reloading explored the topic of cartridge "efficiency" and it seems that the 30-06 cartridge isn't efficient and doesn't lend itself well to highly accurate shooting. "
If you read write-ups on the 6.5 X 284 you will see comments like "easy to work up a superb load"...."shoots a wide variety of bullets from a number of manufacturers with superb accuracy." What I have read about the 06 is that it gives "good" accuracy. I have read that 2 to 4 MOA is acceptable for White Tail hunting at less thab 100 yard ranges. I think it is common wisdom that 99% of the game is taken at that range or less. And, according to Ayoob, any park ranger will confirm that 90%(?) of the deer taken are shot with an 06. Who am I to argue?
Thanks Bob. I always enjoy your thought provoking posts and I look forward to more.
You Sir are looking to be not a good fit on the Friendliest Gun Forum. There has been a misunderstanding in that your opinion of me is none of my business and I'll thank you to not share it. You have an inordinate penchant to drift wildly from the topic. Mine or any others opinion is simply that...an opinion. And it's not subject to yours or any other others approval so long as it is civil and within the bounds of the forum rules. It is especially disappointing that such intolerance comes from a Marine that has put his life on the line for our great nation and to protect our freedom of expression and speech and a Marine that has served in the Republic of Viet Nam, with appropriate ribbons, and claims credit for serving in the Yangsze River Campain in China in 1929 thru 1932. You should probably scrub the China ribbon as it was declared obsolete in 1940 and replaced with the China Service ribbon.
Actually I am just jerking your chain about the China ribbon. I sat down with a Gunney here in town and we figured out you were trying to show your http://www.usamilitarymedals.com/nav...bbon-p-156.htm Unit Commendation ribbon. My monitor shows the center field on the ribbon you sent me as "dark blue". Given that my printer also agrees I can assume that you mistakenly selected the China ribbon or the program you use to print your awards isn't up to Marine Corps standards. I am only offering this as an example of how things get so far off track and any expectation on your part that my opinion is 100% factual is unreasonable. In that regard, we all live in glass houses. This is the Yangsze River Valley ribbon. Yangtze Service Medal Ribbon (Model #:633 YANGTZ-RIBB) see where a mistake could be made? Or has been made. Marines are very "fussy" about this sort of thing and I would expect you to thank me for bringing it to your attention and then subscribe to a different graphic service that is up to USMC standards.
I think Ayoob supports my opinion more than yours. He assigns the popularity of the 30-06 to the availability of ammunition "anywhere" you might travel. He also makes the point that due to the Olympic tournament assortment of ammunition the 06 is the most versatile rifle available in the USA. He also says that the 06 was superseded by the 308 in match competition and the 308 was replaced by the 223 and we all know that the 6mm PPC knocked them all down...at least for a while. Now the 6.5 X 284 is replacing the 6mm in shooting beyond 300 yards or so. Ayoob doesn't mention the 6 or 6.5 but simply refers to "the modern short fat cartridges" that rule the competition. He went on to say that the 30 06 was only used in competitions that were open to "only" 30 06. Read over that Ayoob article you referenced and I think you will see what I am talking about. Great info, by te way.... thanks.
I asked that you take this sort of discussion to PM. I want to repeat that request. Lets allow this thread to return to the subject of 30 cal, and that includes the 7.64 X 54R in the family. Part of my question was "is the 54R brass" better at supporting accuracy and efficiency that the 06? Still no readings on that.
Thank you for your accommodation,
John
I am heading for my bunker/bomb shelter!
__________________
"If we ever forget we are one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under." Ronald Reagan
A Man WITH a gun is a CITIZEN, a Man WITHOUT a gun is a SUBJECT
Actually I am just jerking your chain about the China ribbon. I sat down with a Gunney here in town and we figured out you were trying to show your http://www.usamilitarymedals.com/nav...bbon-p-156.htm Unit Commendation ribbon. My monitor shows the center field on the ribbon you sent me as "dark blue". Given that my printer also agrees I can assume that you mistakenly selected the China ribbon or the program you use to print your awards isn't up to Marine Corps standards. I am only offering this as an example of how things get so far off track and any expectation on your part that my opinion is 100% factual is unreasonable. In that regard, we all live in glass houses. This is the Yangsze River Valley ribbon. Yangtze Service Medal Ribbon (Model #:633 YANGTZ-RIBB) see where a mistake could be made? Or has been made. Marines are very "fussy" about this sort of thing and I would expect you to thank me for bringing it to your attention and then subscribe to a different graphic service that is up to USMC standards.
For one who claims he has a National Defense medal then asks me to identify mine for him brings cause for thought. I didn't print that image. It was given to me by a now deceased Marine, who I called friend. You, sir, tend to jerk a lot of chains, in the hopes that folks wont' be bold enough to confront you about 'em. I tried to pacify you, but here you go again. I figured you were trouble when you began insisting on my exact location, my telephone number, list my medals, and other pushy personal requests. You smack of one who is soley concerned with your own importance, and purported knowledge, and you tend to view your opinions as fact. It's ain't gonna fly here.... too many smart folks. I have all the PM's you sent, and I'd prefer to not receive any more. I'll just ignore you and sincerely hope you just go away.
Chris, mods.... I apologize for for trying to placate johned and in doing so, inadvertently fed his need for attention. I'm done with it, and him.
__________________
NRA Life member
Freedom has a flavor the protected can never taste
USMC RVN '67,- '69
Having an opinion is fine guys...being jerks to one another is not.
Agree to disagree...and move on.
Sometimes the best things said, aren't.
I'll agree. And I'll add this: That entire response from me was simply venting and ruminating. Like the letter you write that is supposd to be theraputic to yourself but isn't supposed to see the light of day. Unfortunately, I left that thing on my screen when i left the house. i know, careless. My wife occasionally uses my computer and she evidently hit "send" somehow...never happened before. And despite this being "my computer" and my having bought her two Toshibas, she is on mine on occasion.
My apologies to you, the mods, Jay and the board for my mega slip.
__________________
"If we ever forget we are one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under." Ronald Reagan
A Man WITH a gun is a CITIZEN, a Man WITHOUT a gun is a SUBJECT
You don't eat his bacon and drink his coffee also when he's not looking do you?
Shhh!
__________________
"If we ever forget we are one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under." Ronald Reagan
A Man WITH a gun is a CITIZEN, a Man WITHOUT a gun is a SUBJECT
I am Griz's Saint Bernard.
Dad doesn't know I am on his computer.
So, I am sending you this message!
Just to say hi!
WHOOF, WHOOF!!
Hmm,
Now, how do I wipe the slobber off the key board?
I've got a kitten that is notorious for walking across the keyboard and stepping on the Caps Lock button. I'm sure it is just a matter of time before she is accessing "kitty porn".
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