[Geo M44]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Sparkytfl

Didn't this thread used to be two pages? I just finished trimming, deburring, and priming 100 of graf brass. None of them actually needed trimming but I just made sure I didn't have any randomly different-sized. A couple were a little rough. That took just over an hour, priming took half an hour. I used cci "bench rest" primers because the last couple boxes of regular at the store had some stolen out of each box (the good store was closed so I had to buy them at gander mountain where they leave them out on the shelves). I managed to not blow any primers despite doing this for the first time. I'm using the cheap Lee Loader. I was just going to set the bullet depth by using an existing round and matching that, is that fine? I'll probably use whatever bullets and powder the good ammo/reloading store has. Probably 308 150grain. And just the pre-measured Lee scoop of any of the powders the lee chart lists. I'm not going for super accuracy, my eyes limit that way more than the ammo. Just I have more spare time than money and don't want to deal with corrosive ammo. Plus local stores don't have surplus anyway and I'm unwilling to mail order any at the moment. Don't want it sitting on my porch in the ghetto for hours or to have to drive to a warehouse to pick it up.

Maybe not the best way to measure, but it should work.

Super accuracy is not as key to reloading as loading safe rounds. The standard Lee Classic set up with Lee dies is the same setup that I use and it works just fine.

Hopefully you cleaned the brass after resizing and/or used a lanolin based lube from Lee (or others).

Cleaning the primer pockets is also a good practice.

150gr. .308 bullets with a powder like IMR4895 will work fine.

when you buy primers just make sure that the box is still sealed with tape on both ends.

Have fun.

[Sparkytfl]

Now I'm not sure about some things. I got the hornady FMJ BT 150gr bullets like these http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...374&t=11082005, and it seems like I'm supposed to seat them too deep. I set the depth to match my 148 grain Wolfs, but the groove is so far towards the tip on these hornadys. Am I supposed to seat them all the way down to the groove? Right now they're a third of the way between where it boat tails and where the groove is. They're staying in place firmly enough.

Is this where OAL (stands for overall length?) comes in? The chart says I want 2.927 min for this powder and bullet size. 3.037 max. I guess I need a caliper, but it looks almost exactly 3inch on my ruler. Putting them in that last .075 or so still wouldn't have the case neck reaching the groove.

Also is it normal to hear the powder when you shake them? I can hear it both in these and my factory ones, but it's worse in these.

[toolman]

The cannelure is set there for either .308 Win. or .303 British loads depending on which dia. bullet you have. That doesn't mean you have to use it. Try playing with the seating depth and see where you get the best accuracy without feeding problems. Don't worry about the powder noise as all powders have a different volume-to-weight ratio, some powders just don't fill up the case as much as others. BTW, keep records of your starting loads and document every change you make to that load. This makes it easier to find the best load or see what change made a good load go south. Lyman makes a good load book for this, as do several other folks.

[Geo M44]

Here is some good powder load information. I have a tendancy to believe the powder companies data.

Cartridge Loads - Hodgdon Reloading Data Center - data.hodgdon.com

[Sparkytfl]

Those numbers are all about 5-12gr higher on both starting and max loads than the chart I got with my lee kit. And still nobody lists 311 bullets, would the numbers be different than 308s?

Of course I haven't gotten to using actual weights yet, just the lee dipper which gives slightly over an average starting load I guess. 2.5cc. I did get a caliper though and set my bullets about halfway between the min and max OAL. I might have to go for 311 bullets next time since the 308s can be pulled out by hand on some of them. They're a bit loose in the case neck. Or maybe something higher grain than 150 (heavier bullets are longer right?) so I can seat them a bit deeper for better grip.

[toolman]

Sparky, most of Lees' tools for the '54R are made to use .308 bullets but if they are loose, I'd definitely use the .310-.312 bullets. Also, you are correct about the heavier bullets being longer. I only use my dippers for dumping approximate charges on my scale. I never really trusted the dippers to give the correct desired charge weight unless I weighed the charge from each dipper full of a given powder. You can get a decent digital scale on the internet or Cabelas is selling one for less than $30 now. Mine cost $18 from an ebay store w\shipping and is the one marketed under the Frankford arsenal brand now.

[Geo M44]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Sparkytfl

Those numbers are all about 5-12gr higher on both starting and max loads than the chart I got with my lee kit. And still nobody lists 311 bullets, would the numbers be different than 308s? Of course I haven't gotten to using actual weights yet, just the lee dipper which gives slightly over an average starting load I guess. 2.5cc. I did get a caliper though and set my bullets about halfway between the min and max OAL. I might have to go for 311 bullets next time since the 308s can be pulled out by hand on some of them. They're a bit loose in the case neck. Or maybe something higher grain than 150 (heavier bullets are longer right?) so I can seat them a bit deeper for better grip.

Again, I have a tendancy to believe the powder manufacturers load weights.

My typical bullet is .311 and 174gr. to 180gr. I have used .308 in the same weight group (heavy) and not had a problem with loose bullets, or noticed a difference in accuracy between diameters.

Since 150gr and 180gr bullets generally cost about the same I tend to use the heavier rounds.

The Lee die set usually includes a crimper die, so if you have loose rounds crimping would be a good solution.

As mentioned before a digital powder scale, and an ogive measuring tool (clamps to the caliper)with .308 insert will greatly improve the consistancy and accuaracy of your reloads. Might as well do it right.

[Sparkytfl]

Actually I'm just using the super cheap lee loader, the one that requires hammering to size the necks and seat the primers. And it just comes with a scoop you level off for an average powder charge. It's a bit slow, but I'm still managing about an hour to size, prime, powder, and bullet-seat 50 rounds. It says you can crimp the bullets in the back, but also says don't do so on bullets without a crimping groove, which I'll also take to mean ones where it's in the wrong place. I did have one that I just touched it pulling it from the die and it slid into the neck. Most I have to grab with my shirt to move the bullets.

I actually spent basically all my extra money until my next check, so no scale yet. I'm also eyeing an actual powder dispenser (pull the lever, get a consistant charge, sounds good). I'll probably try these bullets next, I think that's the only brand the local reloading store has. Or I'll see what midway has.

I've got forty made at the moment, I plan on going to the range tomorrow to see how well they work. If they hit a paper plate from 100 yards, I'll be happy.

[rfc357]

Did you check your resized cases to make sure they chamber? The Lee loader only resizes part of the neck. You are shooting the cases in the same rifle, so there should be no problem. Don't check fit with a loaded round unless you are outside and have the rifle pointed in a safe direction. You must close the bolt to check chambering.

A rimmed case like the 7.62x54 should really be full-length resized, especially in a Moisin which does not have much chambering leverage. This leads to short case life, but that is the price you pay with rimmed cases.

The reason the bullets are loose is because the Lee loader does not size down the neck and then neck expand it, as does a die in a press. It relies on the case necks having uniform thickness, which most do not, especially in military brass.

I started with a Lee loader, as did many other people. I quickly came to the conclusion that it did not produce satisfactory ammunition, merely ammuniton that would go bang most of the time. Hammering the primers gave me the willies, although I only got a loud noise a couple of times.

The Lee dippers can be quite consistent if you follow the directions and are careful. I weighed 100 charges from a dipper, and 100 from my RCBS powder measure. The dipper produced a slightly larger standard deviation (a statistical measure of consistency), but not enough to worry me.

Have fun, be careful.

[Sparkytfl]

Well I screwed something up because my ammo just kind of smoked and pushed the bullet maybe half an inch into the barrel. Pull trigger, no bang, notice tiny bit of smoke creeping from around the bolt. Waited half a minute, opened it up, out comes bullet-less casing spilling powder out. Left the bullet barely in the barrel with a clump of powder behind it that was all stuck together maybe from the oil maybe from something else. Cleaned it all out, tried another loaded on a different day, same deal. Tried a third, same.

So what could it be? Primers? I didn't hear any kind of pop, but I was wearing earplugs. How loud is a primer alone? Were the cci match primers I used too hard for the gun? Would a primer just sizzle instead of pop if it's hit lightly, or is it an all or nothing deal? The powder isn't wet in the casings, I just checked some of the others.

At least I brought my 22s and a couple hundred rounds so it wasn't a wasted trip. I also found hundreds of what look like 54r casings in the brass bin. Looked like a mixture of silver bear, wolf, and a couple real brass. Bleh, looks like it's all berdan. Oh well, at least I know there's another mosin fan around I might meet up with some time.

[toolman]

Did you clean the cases before you loaded them? The Graf's brass contains oil from the manufacturing process that can make the powder in the bottom of the case really hard to ignite (I learned this the hard way). If you didn't clean them, you might want to disassemble the rest, clean and dry the cases, and start over. You'll have to replace the primers of course.

[Sparkytfl]

I put them in a vibro tumbler (didn't buy a scale but got one of those ) for about three hours with pet store ground walnut. Should I have also washed 'em in solution/bug juice? Whoops. But I don't know. I just dumped a few and the powder looked dry and none was stuck in the brass. My entirely uneducated guess is still primers since I didn't hear even the faintest pop.

Guess I'll clean 'em better anyway, also try some different types of primers too while I'm at it. Cheaper cci, win, fed, maybe some of each. I did check my firing pin depth/protrusion/whatever and it was fine.

[toolman]

Try using a Q-Tip and swap the bottom of a few empty cases and see if it comes out looking yellow. The tumbler should pretty well take care of it unless they are really bad. You may also want to check your primer seating depths to make sure they are seated properly. Too deep will crush the priming compound and too shallow will result in a light strike. Here's a link:
exterior ballistics

[rfc357]

If the bullets are loose in the cases, they can start to move before the powder combustion process has really started. This can cause a squib effect, like you report.

[ninwnc]

I would suspect the powder. If the primer is firing and the powder isn't burning, in cases that have been tumbled. If the cases have been tumbled, that should have removed any traces of oil.

Did you check the flash holes for bits of walnut shell stuck in them? This could cause the fire from the primer to be blocked from the powder charge and be too weak to set off the entire powder charge.

Have you fired any rounds using this can of powder in any other gun? Try a different can of powder. That will tell you if the powder is the problem.

Hope this helps. Let us konw what you figure out.

Nick

[Sparkytfl]

Well I tried shooting maybe seven empty primed cases and all of 'em went bang. The flash holes were definitely clear because the trimmer's length guage pokes through the hole. And there didn't seem to be any oil inside of the ones I swabbed, though now I'm spending a couple days tumbling washing them just in case. I have no way of testing the powder, though I did empty a casing into a bottle cap and it lit up nicely.

I don't know. Just about all of your suggestions make sense to me. Especially the "loose bullets moving too soon and letting the powder get blown away by the primer instead of being held in long enough to light" one. Over two thirds of the ones I took apart I was able to just pull the bullets by hand. I'm just going to buy some proper 310/311 bullets, new powder, and both winchester and non-match cci primers. I'll try a few combinations, something has to work.


I did find this http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/han...n-primers.html , that's exactly what happened. Was it actually the primers?

[toolman]

Looking back, I don't think so, but it's hard to say. I had started on a new batch of Grafs brass and didn't realize that they contained oil. When I started having misfires, I thought it was the primers but when I broke them down to replace the primers, I found some of the powder gummed up in the bottom of the case. I have since started using the same batch of primers without a hitch.

[Sparkytfl]

Update:
I made 50 rounds. All things equal but primers. Hornady .3105 174gr bullets, 2.5cc imr4895, graf brass having been washed and tumbled for two days. About 2.97 length. 20 with win primers, 20 with plain cci, 10 with the cci match.

Every one with the win primers worked. 20/20. perfect.

CCI regular primers: 16/20. Strangely enough it was the last four all in a row that didn't go off. Gave me the same problem as before. Seemed to group slightly worse than the winchesters.

CCI match: 1/3. I didn't bother trying more than three of 'em. I was amazed even the one worked.

Other thoughts:
I still need a scale, the 2.5cc scoop is slightly under a starting load and the recoil was a lot less than factory stuff.
Cleaning powder from the chamber is still obnoxious.
It's possibly still the powder, the store was out of the hogdon 4895, and I wasn't sure what else to use.

[ninwnc]

Sounds like a bad batch of primers to me. Load another 20 with the wnchester primers, and if they shoot OK, you pretty much have your answer.

I would go with the Win. primers and dump the others. I use Win. large rifle primers in all my rifle reloads, and have never had a problem. Others here may swear by CCI and despise Winchester, but I go with what works.

I get them at the local gunshop or at the gun shows. I buy the 1,000 primer boxes.

Nick

[rfc357]

Good diagnosis procedures. Make sure you cure the loose bullets.