safe 308 win. loads

[billy]

does anyone have load data for hornady 165gr.bullets /hodgdon varget extreme powder/winchester brass / cci primers? this is the very first time i have ever loaded any ammo, and i want to compare data from as many sources as possible. i want this to be as safe as i can make it. i have been stuck at home sick for 5 days, so im trying to at least get something accomplished. thank you for your time! happy holidays everyone!!!

[jerry]

Rifle Reloading Data, Hodgdon Powder Co., Inc., The Brand That's True, Smokeless powder for reloading, and Pyrodex

Pretty close, primer interchangeability is a nightmare conversation topic. That said, use the recommended primer. Kinda like dad used to say "Do as I say, not as I do" I would not hesitate to use 168 grain data for a 165 grain bullet.

Start at 10% below listed & work your way up a half grain at a time or so. Look for high pressure signs. Hint: A lot of times the more accurate loads are at the lower end of the load data.

[billy]

the hornady folks said on the chart they sent me 165-168gr. bullet, so you were right on the $

[rfc357]

Buy the reloading manual for the brand of bullet you are using. Follow the recipes. Start at the bottom. Don't change anything. Use the recommended primers. Get a good dial caliper and measure overall length. Trim your cases.

This is cheaper and easier than buying a new rifle.

Your accurate load will probably not be the top load. The .308 ammo I load for my M1A is way below max, but is also the load that is most accurate in my bolt guns. The Hornady manual has a section on loading for military gas guns. These loads are moderate, but accurate, and are suitable for other types of actions also.

Don't go for max velocity. The .308 cannot duplicate commercial .30-06 ammo performance, no matter what you do.

Good luck. Have fun. The .308 is my favorite rifle cartridge. Always accurate, powerful enough for anything I want to do.

[billy]

oh i dont want hot loads! im just trying to safely start a new hobby and save some $. it doesnt hurt that i wont be stuck in backorder limbo waiting for ammo any more. i realize im not gonna save a dime but i will get more shooting in!

update: well it took me 3 1/2 hours to set up and get the powder measure understood. i still havent made a round ,but i did get hornady handbook,abc,s of handloading, handloaders guide,lee data manual,modern reloading,and hodgdons cartridge load recipe report. oh yeah i built a bench for it.

update:5 hours in. still havent made a round .between the scale and the powder measure i havent gotten the same measurment twice.im afraid to load one because i cant tell what is correct. arrgh! maybe tomorrow i dunno...

[Johnny_Revolver]

Billy, I don`t trust my Lee Powder thrower I got in the Anniversary Kit. I set it to be close, then use a trickler. It shouldn`t be dangerously inaccurate in the measures it throws, but there is enough variation to hurt true accuracy. By that I mean dime sized groups that I pedantically require.

Your manual may have advised you to run a full hopper full threw it to get it ` settled in` this does indeed help things. Its ` good chance to come to grips with the adjuster on the thrower.

Stick with it, I understand your plight, the Lee instructions could be a little bit more informative. You`ll get it though. Everyone goes through this phase, beleive me.

Some clues I` ve discovered: you can`t have a fan anywhere near Lee scale, probably not an issue for you in the winter, but I know I can`t even have the air con on in my room when I am making ammo. Which sucks..

Seriously, if I can get it together with a Lee Anniversary Kit, a chimp could, you`ll be fine. The nickle sized groups I was eventually able to attain with my inexpensive .223 prove this.

[billy]

thanks for the encouragment johnny. i was just discouraged. that thing was driving me nuts. i will eventually get it once i get past the learning curve. yes the manual did say to put at least one hopper full of powder through it ,so i did a couple. and yes wind does play havoc with the scale.
got up this morning and went and bought a powder trickler and figured i may as well get a set of good calipers. so im only $240 down now grand total. not counting time invested. im not crying about it, but it did cross my mind that if this is the cheap way to go, i guess the skies the limit....p.s. i should get a chimp

[D-squared]

There is an age old reloading practice of reducing the powder charge by 10% and working upwards in small steps (0.3 grs is my favorite).

The Hodgdon web site lists 46.0 grs for a 168gr bullet at 50,600 cup. All modern bolt action 308's are perfectly capable of handling 60,000 cup.

Alot of semi-auto's need small base reloading dies.

The most reliable indicator of a safe load is to use a micrometer to measeure case head expansion.

I like CCI primers myself. They tend to be "harder" than other brands (Federal).

There are other indicators to watch for. Flattened and/or cratered primers is one eyeball indicator that the load is to hot. If you experience sticky lifting of the bolt handle or you begin to see an impression of the bolt's ejection pin on the case head, STOP INCREASING THE POWDER CHARGE, you have gone to far.

Good luck, Don

[billy]

whats a small base reloading die? all i have is the kit/caliper /lee 308win.deluxe die set and a bunch of data sheets/manuals. most agree on min load 42gr. max 46gr. for the powder /brass/bullet weight/type the hornady is the odd man out with 33gr. min. 44gr. max. the 308 i have is a semi auto saiga

[Johnny_Revolver]

Billy I found this: Sizing dies can be Neck Sizer, Full Length Sizer, or Small Base Sizer. Small base sizer IS a full length sizer but sizes the lower portion of case (near head) to a smaller diameter than standard full length sizer. Some rifles (semi-autos, lever actions, pumps, and some single shots) have less camming action than bolt actions when seating a new cartridge into the chamber. By using a small base sizer, the brass case is reduced to a slightly smaller diameter and thus should seat into the chamber easier. Using a small base sizer die does work the brass more in the lower area and theoretically the brass will not last as long as brass sized in a normal full length die.

If its your own brass, you could just try one or two with the collet neck sizing die, and if you run into trouble with feeding, ( shouldn`t though ) try the full length resizer. Obviously if you secure your brass from another rifle, you`ll need to full length resize. Some folk do anyway with thier own brass, I don`t as a rule, I just neck size. But I load for a bolt action and a single shot rifle, not a semi auto.

[rfc357]

Good advice from D-Squared.

A small base reloading die sizes the brass back to factory dimensions in the base area, something many "standard" dies do not. You can get a small base die from Midway or one of the other suppliers.

Now, do you need one? You won't now until you try some handloads in your rifle. Reload some brass that you fired in your rifle, no more than 10 or 20 rounds. If they chamber and cycle OK, you do not need a small base die. If they do not chamber, or they chamber with difficulty, a small base die may be in order. Be advised that you may not be able to produce acceptable reloads for a foreign military semi-auto no matter what you do.

Semi-autos have chambers at the "loosest" end of tolerances because they do not have the chambering or extraction leverage of a bolt action. They need "loose" chambers for reliable functioning. This means brass fired in semi auto chambers expands more than in bolt guns, hence the possible need for a small base die. Brass is springy, both on expansion and reizing.

I doubt any rifle manufacturer considers the needs of reloaders in their designs, but the designers of military rifles certainly do not. Military rifles have "looser" chambers than civilian rifles, and foreign rifles can have looser chambers yet. They have to be able to deal with dirty, bent ammunition that may be on the high end of the tolerance scale. Remember a military rifle designer's overriding consideration is reliability. The rifle simply has to go bang every time. Accuracy is secondary. The result can be fired brass that cannot be resized effectively to be useful. You won't know until you try.

Interestingly, the base sizing issue can occur in tight chambers also. One of my M1s has a Douglas match barrel with a minimum chamber. I have to use a small base die when reloading for this rifle. I just use the small base die for all my .30-06 reloading.

[billy]

hey i made one everybody! overall length 2.810 /42gr. varget powder/165 gr.hornady sp.interlock/cci large rifle primer/winchester new brass. that rcbs powder trickler was just the ticket! now i wonder if its safe to shoot?

with my die set i recieved a full length sizer a collet neck sizer and a dead length bullet seating die. i did not recieve a factory crimp die . is that desirable? thanks so much you guys! be lost without ya.. p.s. i ran that round through the action of my rifle and it seemed to chamber/eject fine

" Be advised that you may not be able to produce acceptable reloads for a foreign military semi-auto no matter what you do." if thats the case its gonna be a sad day at the ol homestead. thats the main reason i bought all this stuff......

[rfc357]

Billy, I said you may not be able to! I see a lot of shooters at my gun club who have had less than satisfactory results loading for foreign military semi-autos. However, many have had good results. About all you can reasonably hope for is reliable ammunition that shoots as well as the surplus stuff. If you do better, good on you!

You never know until you try.

I have a stock bottom-of-the-line M1A that shoots surplus ammo as well as (or as poorly as!) it shoots my match reloads. I do not think reloading benefits this rifle one bit. With surplus ammo as cheap as it is today, that's all I feed this particular rifle. A Sierra bullet costs more than a whole round of surplus ammo, not to mention the cost of powdwer, primer, and my time.

On the other hand, there is tremendous difference in accuracy between surplus ammo and reloads in my accurate bolt guns.

I see no reason to crimp bottle-neck rifle cartridges for use in box magazines. Top competitors do not do this. I have seen recommendations to crimp ammo for AR-type rifles. I never have, and in shooting tens of thousands of shots have had no problems. The state-champion who advises me on the AR does not crimp his reloads. Most match-quality bullets do not have crimp grooves.

Hand chambering the round is a good first check. Just don't put a hole in the refrigerator! However, you won't know if the ammo is satisfactory until you feed it through the magazine with the gas cycle. That is why I suggested you only load 10 or 20 rounds for your first shooting session. You don't want several hundred rounds of ammo that won't work! (I have done this.)

I checked my Hornady manual. 42 grains of Varget is close to the top for this bullet in a 7.62 Nato. (You should be using 7.62 loading data in your gas gun.) I would recommend starting lower (10% below max) and working up 1/2 grain at a time until you get reliable functioning, especially if you are using military brass. Lighter loads are frequently the most accurate, your brass will last longer, etc. I have found the cautions in the loading books are usually worth following!

[billy]

loaded 12 rds. the way i described, very carefully weighing out 42 gr.i wonder if this is safe to shoot?33gr. min. 44gr. max. i took my time doing this. i wanted to get it right. you seem like you know a lot about this and i want you to know i appreciate it! so should i start with39.6 gr.? is that what you are saying?

in the manual for this rifle it says its a hunting carbine 308win(7.62x51) thats how its typed out. it also says that when it was test fired it produced a 100cm group so match ammo isnt in the cards. on the reciever of the rifle it says 308 win 7.62x51

[Johnny_Revolver]

Billy if you are sure you followed proceedure correctly, checked all the data and applied it, there is only one way to find out. Inspect the first fired case and if it looks good fire a few more.

[rfc357]

Billy,

If your "Saiga" is on an AK action, I would recommend using 7.62 NATO loading data, and starting low. The Hornady manual lists 44.7 grains of Varget as a max load for your bullet weight.

You are unlikely to blow up the rifle using any safe .308 Win load. However, it is always safer to start low. I have no experience with these rifles, but I always start at rock bottom with anything except a modern commercial bolt action.

[billy]

unfired on left . i cant tell the difference between them without a caliper, except for the scratches from chambering ect. there is 9 gr. difference between what hornady says and what the powder manufacturer and the lee modern reloading manual say. that is a HUGE difference! i fired all 12 rounds after i saw what the 1st case looked like. so all i know is lee and hodgdon say minimum load is 42gr. never exceed 46gr.

[Johnny_Revolver]

Hard to see much in the pic with my eye, Billy. How`d it feel? More / less recoil? It felt good though didnt it? ` I made that ` Look for splits, bulges, look at the primer for irregularity.

[billy]

it felt the same to me,and they look the same. there are no bulges or weird primers ect...

[Johnny_Revolver]

Well, congratulations! I remember when I fired the first round of the very first batch I made. It went bang, didnt blow my rifle up, or disfigure me, I felt pretty dang clever to be honest.

Each batch gets better, as you pick up on the finer points of it all. It is pretty good fun.