.25-06 to .280AI

Palladin8 · 01-12-2008, 06:56 PM

Question for you guys.
I have purchased a .280 AI barrel that should be arriving soon. I am needing to fire form cases for it and knowing that the .280 is basicly a 30-06 cartridge. I have a bunch of 25-06 laying around and thought that maybe I could load them up and fire form them in the .280. Would I be better off just ordering new .280 brass and loading those or could I use the 25-06 brass and just use a paper wad to fire form?

Scott

Mooseman684 · 01-12-2008, 06:59 PM

I would personally invest in new cases...Saves time, and you dont have a headstamp on the caseing that could get confusing...
Rich

rfc357 · 01-12-2008, 09:57 PM

The .25-06 cases might work, but:

1. The paper wad idea will not work. Without a bullet, you will not generate enough pressure to fire form.

2. The base-to-shoulder dimensions of the two cartridges are significantly different. You may have trouble with excessive headspace during the fireforming operation.

Read a book on cartridge conversions for more information. I would buy .280 cases.

21buck · 01-12-2008, 10:09 PM

I would leave the 25-06 alone. Getting the right brass makes you a happy shooter, saves $ in the long run and contributes to a more accurate load. Look up Accuvel.com .

Palladin8 · 01-12-2008, 11:06 PM

I was leaning more towards purchasing the .280 brass but I do have close to 300 emptys of the 25-06 laying around. I have 100 more loaded for the 25-06 so I thought I could put them to some use.

rfc357 I was reading on here and other forums that people used fast burning powders and then cream of wheat or other fillers and then crammed toilet paper or cleaning patches instead of loading a bullet. I have never fire formed so can't say that it works one way or the other.

If I do have to load a bullet will I have to buy both .280 Rem dies and the .280 Ackley Improved dies or will I be able to seat a bullet using the .280AI dies into the .280 Rem cases?

Scott

Mooseman684 · 01-12-2008, 11:17 PM

.280 Ackley dies will load the 280 Rem. cases just fine...
Rich

Palladin8 · 01-12-2008, 11:42 PM

Thanks Rich. I didn't want to have to go out and buy two sets if I didn't have to.

Scott

rfc357 · 01-13-2008, 07:33 AM

Sometimes the cream of wheat thing works and sometimes it does not. I recommend bullets. Be advised that any wildcat is an exercise in experimentation. I have built several Ackleys, so I speak from experience. But the results are worth the effort.

Another alternative is to just buy a couple of boxes of .280 Rem factory ammo and fire them. Fireforming complete. Then just neck size and trim. You don't need a lot of brass for a hunting rifle. I get by with 40 or so cases for my .338-06 Ackley and .35 Whelan Ackley. If you just neck size and trim they last a long time.

If you decide to try the .25-06 cases, you will have to neck expand them and seat a bullet against the lands to keep the case head against the bolt face when you fireform them. Otherwise, you run the risk of stretching the case just ahead of the web, which will result in case head separations. I speak from experience. Thus the recommendation to start with .280 brass.

Not all cases based on the .30-06 have the same basic dimensions. The .280 shoulder is about 0.05" further forward than most of them. I have read that this is to prevent seating a .280 round in a .270 chamber. I don't know how you could get a .280 round into a .270 chamber, but then again I have never tried. I do know that a .280 case will not chamber in a .30-06. So if you chamber a .25-06 case in a .280 chamber, you have a lot of headspace.

samuel · 01-13-2008, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rfc357

The .25-06 cases might work, but:

1. The paper wad idea will not work. Without a bullet, you will not generate enough pressure to fire form.

2. The base-to-shoulder dimensions of the two cartridges are significantly different. You may have trouble with excessive headspace during the fireforming operation.

Read a book on cartridge conversions for more information. I would buy .280 cases.

You are wrong about not being able to fireform with a paper wad.You use fast burning pistol/shotgun powder.Look up wikipedia cartridge loading for one place.There are several websites you can get the info.Also the shoulder is bound to be different or you wouldnt have to fireform.I dont advise using any case with a smaller bullet diammeter to make anything as from experience the neck can be sompressed but when you try to stretch it cold it is easy to crack it.If going up on bullet size you should do it hot. sam.

Palladin8 · 01-13-2008, 07:47 PM

Thanks for the advice guys. I just ordered two hundred .280 cases to get started with.

Scott

samuel · 01-14-2008, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palladin8

Thanks for the advice guys. I just ordered two hundred .280 cases to get started with.

Scott

If you are using new cases,just resize,trim and load.I never use max loads the first firing.I take it you are experienced but as long as you are using a bolt action,neck resize only.I dont like trying to neck treize with a full length resizing die because of possibly expanding the shoulder so ths cartridge wont chamber,but if you run it through the die and check to be certain it will chamber before doing anything else,there is no problem.Neck resizing doesnt always work with other type actions. sam.

irish murphy · 01-14-2008, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rfc357

The .25-06 cases might work, but:

1. The paper wad idea will not work. Without a bullet, you will not generate enough pressure to fire form.

Have to disagree,my mate has formed full length 410g shotshells from 303 brass.The cases were annealed and a charge of fast pistol powder was used with a paper wad and some wheat meal.After a bit of mucking around with the charge size they formed up very well.He also made his own dies for the sizing of this 410 brass.

Onesonek · 01-14-2008, 09:03 AM

"Sometimes the cream of wheat thing works and sometimes it does not. I recommend bullets."

I agree with this Scott, The biggest problem I found with CW ,,,, sometimes it forms nicely, other times not. So you still need to fireform again or with a bullet anyhow,a good part of the time... That's not so bad, but sometimes the CW "cooks" and leaves a chunk on the inside of the shoulder. If not inspected and removed,,, well it probably wounldn't do any damage. But it could affect pressures some, and affect accuracy at the same time to some extent.
Dave

Palladin8 · 01-15-2008, 08:16 AM

Samuel

It's not a bolt gun but a T/C Encore. I have a full length set of Redding dies on the way so I am not sure if I can neck size them or not.

samuel · 01-15-2008, 10:42 AM

They can be neck sized with a full length die.Just set the die so it only goes down the neck about 3/4ths of the length or so. 1/2 is plenty to seat the bullet.Lube the neck only and dont let lube build up in the die.Keep checking cases to be sure they chamber.If they dont chamber fairly easy you will have to reset the full length to full length resize to bump the shoulder back in .The big difference is the neck resized will be straighter in the chamber and casings last longer.Either can be used. sam.

Palladin8 · 01-17-2008, 04:55 AM

Ok I just recieved an email from Midway stating that the .280 brass is on back order and could take a few months to get here. I guess I should have payed closer attention when ordering. Anyways since it's going to take a few months to arrive could I just order .30-06 and just size it down to accept the .284 bullet and would I need to have a set of .280 dies to do the sizing or would the Ackley die work? Maybe I would be better off just buying the Ackley brass. I was just wanting to experience the whole fire forming experience. And no I don't want to go and spend $25.00 + on a box of twenty .280 rounds to fire form.:P

Anyways thanks for your paitence and help
Scott

samuel · 01-17-2008, 05:44 AM

The .270 and .280 case is 2.540 oal. The .25-06 and .30-06 are both 2.494 oal.This means both are actually too short for the .280 AI.I suppose it might work but you risk building a burn ring or carbon deposit in the chamber that would have to be removed when you get the proper length cases.If you shot very many short cases (.25-.30-06)you probably couldnt even chamber .280,s and if they did chamber they might build high pressures on the carbon ring if it isnt removed.If you can find .270win. cases which are the right length and only .008" smaller diammeter, they will work excelently with no fear of cracking and no oversize necks.Just run them in the .280 die,remembering to very lightly lube the inside of the neck.Clean the inside after resizing.Trim and champfer. After resizing make sure the bullet fits.(in other words doesnt fall in.I know .270,s will work for .280,s as I have used a lot of them. sam.

Palladin8 · 01-17-2008, 04:21 PM

Thanks Sam. I will go ahead and order a few of them and try them out.

Scott

300 wsm · 01-18-2008, 12:53 PM

So can I have the 25-06 brass...

rdale501 · 01-18-2008, 02:09 PM

Hey!! If that 25-06 brass is up for grabs.....count me in.

01-12-2008, 06:56 PM	#1
Palladin8 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 594	.25-06 to .280AI Question for you guys. I have purchased a .280 AI barrel that should be arriving soon. I am needing to fire form cases for it and knowing that the .280 is basicly a 30-06 cartridge. I have a bunch of 25-06 laying around and thought that maybe I could load them up and fire form them in the .280. Would I be better off just ordering new .280 brass and loading those or could I use the 25-06 brass and just use a paper wad to fire form? Scott

01-12-2008, 06:59 PM	#2
Mooseman684 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Alaska Wilderness Posts: 10,561 Images: 2	I would personally invest in new cases...Saves time, and you dont have a headstamp on the caseing that could get confusing... Rich __________________ You know you might be facing your doom,when all you get is a click when you're expecting a BOOM!

01-12-2008, 10:09 PM	#4
21buck Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 42	25-06 to 280 A1 I would leave the 25-06 alone. Getting the right brass makes you a happy shooter, saves $ in the long run and contributes to a more accurate load. Look up Accuvel.com .

01-12-2008, 11:17 PM	#6
Mooseman684 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Alaska Wilderness Posts: 10,561 Images: 2	.280 Ackley dies will load the 280 Rem. cases just fine... Rich __________________ You know you might be facing your doom,when all you get is a click when you're expecting a BOOM!

01-13-2008, 07:33 AM	#8
rfc357 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 741	Sometimes the cream of wheat thing works and sometimes it does not. I recommend bullets. Be advised that any wildcat is an exercise in experimentation. I have built several Ackleys, so I speak from experience. But the results are worth the effort. Another alternative is to just buy a couple of boxes of .280 Rem factory ammo and fire them. Fireforming complete. Then just neck size and trim. You don't need a lot of brass for a hunting rifle. I get by with 40 or so cases for my .338-06 Ackley and .35 Whelan Ackley. If you just neck size and trim they last a long time. If you decide to try the .25-06 cases, you will have to neck expand them and seat a bullet against the lands to keep the case head against the bolt face when you fireform them. Otherwise, you run the risk of stretching the case just ahead of the web, which will result in case head separations. I speak from experience. Thus the recommendation to start with .280 brass. Not all cases based on the .30-06 have the same basic dimensions. The .280 shoulder is about 0.05" further forward than most of them. I have read that this is to prevent seating a .280 round in a .270 chamber. I don't know how you could get a .280 round into a .270 chamber, but then again I have never tried. I do know that a .280 case will not chamber in a .30-06. So if you chamber a .25-06 case in a .280 chamber, you have a lot of headspace. Last edited by rfc357; 01-13-2008 at 07:45 AM.

01-12-2008, 09:57 PM	#3
rfc357 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 741	The .25-06 cases might work, but: 1. The paper wad idea will not work. Without a bullet, you will not generate enough pressure to fire form. 2. The base-to-shoulder dimensions of the two cartridges are significantly different. You may have trouble with excessive headspace during the fireforming operation. Read a book on cartridge conversions for more information. I would buy .280 cases.

01-12-2008, 11:06 PM	#5
Palladin8 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 594	I was leaning more towards purchasing the .280 brass but I do have close to 300 emptys of the 25-06 laying around. I have 100 more loaded for the 25-06 so I thought I could put them to some use. rfc357 I was reading on here and other forums that people used fast burning powders and then cream of wheat or other fillers and then crammed toilet paper or cleaning patches instead of loading a bullet. I have never fire formed so can't say that it works one way or the other. If I do have to load a bullet will I have to buy both .280 Rem dies and the .280 Ackley Improved dies or will I be able to seat a bullet using the .280AI dies into the .280 Rem cases? Scott

01-12-2008, 11:42 PM	#7
Palladin8 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 594	Thanks Rich. I didn't want to have to go out and buy two sets if I didn't have to. Scott

01-13-2008, 07:47 PM	#10
Palladin8 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 594	Thanks for the advice guys. I just ordered two hundred .280 cases to get started with. Scott

01-14-2008, 09:03 AM	#13
Onesonek Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pipestone, MN. Posts: 436	"Sometimes the cream of wheat thing works and sometimes it does not. I recommend bullets." I agree with this Scott, The biggest problem I found with CW ,,,, sometimes it forms nicely, other times not. So you still need to fireform again or with a bullet anyhow,a good part of the time... That's not so bad, but sometimes the CW "cooks" and leaves a chunk on the inside of the shoulder. If not inspected and removed,,, well it probably wounldn't do any damage. But it could affect pressures some, and affect accuracy at the same time to some extent. Dave

01-15-2008, 08:16 AM	#14
Palladin8 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 594	Samuel It's not a bolt gun but a T/C Encore. I have a full length set of Redding dies on the way so I am not sure if I can neck size them or not.

01-15-2008, 10:42 AM	#15
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,232	They can be neck sized with a full length die.Just set the die so it only goes down the neck about 3/4ths of the length or so. 1/2 is plenty to seat the bullet.Lube the neck only and dont let lube build up in the die.Keep checking cases to be sure they chamber.If they dont chamber fairly easy you will have to reset the full length to full length resize to bump the shoulder back in .The big difference is the neck resized will be straighter in the chamber and casings last longer.Either can be used. sam. Last edited by samuel; 01-15-2008 at 10:45 AM.

01-17-2008, 04:55 AM	#16
Palladin8 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 594	Ok I just recieved an email from Midway stating that the .280 brass is on back order and could take a few months to get here. I guess I should have payed closer attention when ordering. Anyways since it's going to take a few months to arrive could I just order .30-06 and just size it down to accept the .284 bullet and would I need to have a set of .280 dies to do the sizing or would the Ackley die work? Maybe I would be better off just buying the Ackley brass. I was just wanting to experience the whole fire forming experience. And no I don't want to go and spend $25.00 + on a box of twenty .280 rounds to fire form.:P Anyways thanks for your paitence and help Scott

01-17-2008, 05:44 AM	#17
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,232	The .270 and .280 case is 2.540 oal. The .25-06 and .30-06 are both 2.494 oal.This means both are actually too short for the .280 AI.I suppose it might work but you risk building a burn ring or carbon deposit in the chamber that would have to be removed when you get the proper length cases.If you shot very many short cases (.25-.30-06)you probably couldnt even chamber .280,s and if they did chamber they might build high pressures on the carbon ring if it isnt removed.If you can find .270win. cases which are the right length and only .008" smaller diammeter, they will work excelently with no fear of cracking and no oversize necks.Just run them in the .280 die,remembering to very lightly lube the inside of the neck.Clean the inside after resizing.Trim and champfer. After resizing make sure the bullet fits.(in other words doesnt fall in.I know .270,s will work for .280,s as I have used a lot of them. sam.

01-17-2008, 04:21 PM	#18
Palladin8 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 594	Thanks Sam. I will go ahead and order a few of them and try them out. Scott

01-18-2008, 12:53 PM	#19
300 wsm Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: cumberland, md Posts: 77	So can I have the 25-06 brass... __________________ "oh bother" said pooh as he chambered another round

01-18-2008, 02:09 PM	#20
rdale501 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: oregon Posts: 420	Hey!! If that 25-06 brass is up for grabs.....count me in.