Old primers, case length, and manuals

Fishhead · 03-11-2008, 10:17 PM

Hello all. I have been out of reloading for about 10 years, but luckily some old habits die hard. Now that I have a couple boxes behind me I have a few questions that I would really appreciate answers to.

If any of these have been dealt with in earlier threads, I apologize.

Old primers… How can I get rid of them safely? Soak them in water and put them in the trash? Ten years ago, if a few primers went off when the garbage man ran the compactor it might have been treated as a bad prank. Today it would probably result in an ATF or Homeland Security visit. I’d rather avoid that, thanks.

Case length… All of my straight walled, pistol brass has been reloaded a couple times, but none even come close to trim length let alone maximum length. For example, my reloading manual (Hornady 7th edition) lists trim length for the .45 Auto as 0.893”. My resized brass comes in between 0.885” and 0.890”. What gives? I can not think of any problems this might cause in a revolver except elevating pressure a little, but in my .45 ACP could this lead to headspace issues? I get 0.451” when I measure bullet diameter, so my calipers work.

Wide differences in powder charges in different sources… I knew what powders I wanted to use, so I went to the Accurate and Hercules websites and downloaded their load data. Turns out I still like a book, so I updated to the Hornady manual. For the .45 Auto, the Accurate site gives a load range of 7.8 to 8.7 gr. of AA #5 with a 230 gr. jacketed bullet. The Hornady manual for the same powder and bullet combination is 7.1 to 8.3 gr. The range of powder charges from both sources is about 1 gr., but the max load is 0.4 gr. greater on the Accurate site. On the other side, Hercules lists a max of 17.5 gr. of 2400 for my .41 Rem. Mag and a 210 gr. jacketed bullet. The Hornady manual lists a max of 20.0 gr. for the same combination. Applying the rule of thumb of a 10% reduction from max for a starter load for the Hornady data leaves you 0.5 gr. over the Hercules max. Not much of a question here, I guess, but doesn’t it make you pucker up just a little when the “starter” load in one source can be over the maximum in another? When starting from scratch, any opinions on how to balance the risk above with reducing an already conservative load too far?

billy · 03-11-2008, 10:22 PM

i have posted tirades about this very thing.
all of my books contradict each other.
i wish i could help you.
i could look in my books and give you the loads i have.
if you think that would help?

mitch_mckee · 03-11-2008, 10:32 PM

I've seen the same kind of crap.

I try to make an educated guess between my sources. Between the manufacturer's manuals, Hornady, Lee, and Internet sources, I can generally come up with something that, at least to date, is safe.

One would think that such data would cross reference, especially powder charges, but they don't.

Fishhead · 03-11-2008, 10:39 PM

Billy,
Thanks for the offer. I might take you up on it some time, but for now that would take the fun out of building loads. Naturally I had the "hotter" load data first, so I loaded up a series of rounds at 0.1 gr. steps. I'll just have someone on hand to chase down the brass so I can give it a good look over before shooting any more or moving up to the next level.

What about the old primers? Can't build a fire with them! Well, maybe, but...

SwedeSteve · 03-11-2008, 10:44 PM

Primers. Put them in a can of old motor oil, throw in garbage bag.
Brass: Seems ok, from what I read.
Powder: +1 with Billy! Seems odd. Are there such great differences because people are shooting OLD 45's, and the powder compaies are playing it safe? Just mulling it over. Hopefully, more experienced will wegh in.

SL11 · 03-12-2008, 12:05 PM

My 20-year old primers are working just fine. I don't think they will go bad if stored in a climate controlled building in their original packaging.

Do NOT burn them! There would be little primer cups flyinig everywhere. Not likely to kill you, but they can definitely blind you.

Sl1

BaserRonin · 03-12-2008, 12:42 PM

I think the books recommended powder charge depends on what equipment they used to measure the pressure.

As for case length I do not think I have ever had to trim my .38 specials. They don't tend to flow much with my moderate load in a model 10. Until they get past the maximum, I wouldn't worry about it. Overall length is more important I believe.

I have used old primers with no difficulty. On the rare occasion I find a 20 year old box, I will prime a few cases, 10 or so, to make sure they still function without failure and load em up. If they still work reliably, I wouldn't chuck em.
Otherwise, spraying them with WD40 is a sure thing to kill primers.

samuel · 03-12-2008, 02:19 PM

The old primers will work just as good as new ones.The cases are straight walled and when fired stretch out,not up.When resized,no die will push them back to factory meisurements so they are slightly shorter than SAAMI max oal.Sounds like you already know how to work a load up. sam.

billy · 03-13-2008, 11:29 PM

with all my books when i look up cowboy loads i go for the max load or just under.
the min loads wouldnt kill a fly.
with my latest for the 45colts i am getting a satisfiying 727fps.
its not dangerously high but it is enough to make me feel like i am shooting something/
p.s. i have started with min on all my c.b.loads

Mooseman684 · 03-13-2008, 11:40 PM

IF you are loading Hornady Bullets, Use Hornady Data ! If Speer Bullets, use Speer Data. Bullet Manufacturing Tolerances are different as is Bullet Design and Performance, So it is best to go by the manufacturers recommended Loads and load for accuracy...Different bullets can cause different Pressures.
Rich

Fishhead · 03-13-2008, 11:41 PM

Thanks all for the input. I'll give the old primers a try in some empty cases and see if they all go bang. If they do, there's no sense wasting them.

Rich, I agree that when working up to a heavy load you should use load data from the bullet maker, but what about when using powder company load data?

AKHunter · 03-14-2008, 12:31 AM

Quote:

IF you are loading Hornady Bullets, Use Hornady Data ! If Speer Bullets, use Speer Data. Bullet Manufacturing Tolerances are different as is Bullet Design and Performance, So it is best to go by the manufacturers recommended Loads and load for accuracy...Different bullets can cause different Pressures.
Rich

Is what I do. If I dont incur any pressure signs with a given manufacturer and feel that I can gain something or just want to fool around, I will take a higher listed charge from a different manual and apply it to the bullet I like. I slowly work up load like any other that way. I have found excellent loads doing so with no pressure issues. I also found different powders listed for a given caliber/bullet weight that way.

Example:Nosler manual #4 doesnt list RL22 as a powder for my .338wm 225 grn partition. Barnes #1 does for their 225grn X bullet begining at 73 grains, and max at 78 grains powder charge. I tried RL22 and worked to 75 grains RL22 with a CCI250 primer in Rem or Win brass behind a 225 nosler partition, and my Ruger shoots them sub MOA at 100yards at 2800fps.

Just use common sense. It is OK to experiment in a sane fashion.

samuel · 03-14-2008, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fishhead

Thanks all for the input. I'll give the old primers a try in some empty cases and see if they all go bang. If they do, there's no sense wasting them.

Rich, I agree that when working up to a heavy load you should use load data from the bullet maker, but what about when using powder company load data?

Watch what bullets the powder Co. is using. sam.

aht_six · 03-14-2008, 06:14 AM

10 year old primers should be just fine if they have been stored in the factory packaging and kept dry.

I think it's a good idea to always compare load data from several sources. I called Hornady years ago about some 300 Weatherby load data in their manual (2nd or 3rd edition) that that didn't look right. The Tech immediately told me not to use that data, there had been a mix up and the book was wrong. He gave me the correct info.

Sometimes I wonder if powder burn rates evolve a little over time. I have an 8 lbs bottle of H1000 that recommends on the label to use 76.0 grains (reduced 6% to start) for a 7mm Rem mag with a 140 bullet. My Hornady manual fourth edition lists the max to be 75.0 grains. I used the 76.0 grain load for several years without noticing any pressure issues. Now the Hodgdon web site has listed the maximum load with a 140 grain bullet to be 70.0 grains.

samuel · 03-14-2008, 08:14 AM

My Hodgdon book lists 70gr of H1000 to be 50,000 Cup,with 140gr bullet in 7mm mag.Cant emagine putting 5 more grains in. sam.

aht_six · 03-14-2008, 07:33 PM

samuel · 03-14-2008, 08:35 PM

I would want to sneak up on that load.Cant emagine what the pressure might be. sam.

Taurus Fan · 03-15-2008, 01:40 PM

I've never seen a straight wall pistol case need trimming. Necked rifle cartridges most certainly do.

03-11-2008, 10:22 PM	#2
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 11,977 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 146	i have posted tirades about this very thing. all of my books contradict each other. i wish i could help you. i could look in my books and give you the loads i have. if you think that would help? __________________ just leave britney ALONE! she's going thru a hard time snivel sniff....WAH

03-12-2008, 12:05 PM	#6
SL11 Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 85	Why get rid of old primers? My 20-year old primers are working just fine. I don't think they will go bad if stored in a climate controlled building in their original packaging. Do NOT burn them! There would be little primer cups flyinig everywhere. Not likely to kill you, but they can definitely blind you. Sl1

03-12-2008, 12:42 PM	#7
BaserRonin Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: In a Dark Cubicle Posts: 371	I think the books recommended powder charge depends on what equipment they used to measure the pressure. As for case length I do not think I have ever had to trim my .38 specials. They don't tend to flow much with my moderate load in a model 10. Until they get past the maximum, I wouldn't worry about it. Overall length is more important I believe. I have used old primers with no difficulty. On the rare occasion I find a 20 year old box, I will prime a few cases, 10 or so, to make sure they still function without failure and load em up. If they still work reliably, I wouldn't chuck em. Otherwise, spraying them with WD40 is a sure thing to kill primers. __________________ "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism" ~ R. W. Inge

03-13-2008, 11:29 PM	#9
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 11,977 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 146	with all my books when i look up cowboy loads i go for the max load or just under. the min loads wouldnt kill a fly. with my latest for the 45colts i am getting a satisfiying 727fps. its not dangerously high but it is enough to make me feel like i am shooting something/ p.s. i have started with min on all my c.b.loads __________________ just leave britney ALONE! she's going thru a hard time snivel sniff....WAH

03-13-2008, 11:40 PM	#10
Mooseman684 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Alaska Wilderness Posts: 9,638 Images: 2	IF you are loading Hornady Bullets, Use Hornady Data ! If Speer Bullets, use Speer Data. Bullet Manufacturing Tolerances are different as is Bullet Design and Performance, So it is best to go by the manufacturers recommended Loads and load for accuracy...Different bullets can cause different Pressures. Rich __________________ You know you might be facing your doom,when all you get is a click when you're expecting a BOOM!

03-11-2008, 10:17 PM	#1
Fishhead Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: The gem state Posts: 12	Old primers, case length, and manuals Hello all. I have been out of reloading for about 10 years, but luckily some old habits die hard. Now that I have a couple boxes behind me I have a few questions that I would really appreciate answers to. If any of these have been dealt with in earlier threads, I apologize. Old primers… How can I get rid of them safely? Soak them in water and put them in the trash? Ten years ago, if a few primers went off when the garbage man ran the compactor it might have been treated as a bad prank. Today it would probably result in an ATF or Homeland Security visit. I’d rather avoid that, thanks. Case length… All of my straight walled, pistol brass has been reloaded a couple times, but none even come close to trim length let alone maximum length. For example, my reloading manual (Hornady 7th edition) lists trim length for the .45 Auto as 0.893”. My resized brass comes in between 0.885” and 0.890”. What gives? I can not think of any problems this might cause in a revolver except elevating pressure a little, but in my .45 ACP could this lead to headspace issues? I get 0.451” when I measure bullet diameter, so my calipers work. Wide differences in powder charges in different sources… I knew what powders I wanted to use, so I went to the Accurate and Hercules websites and downloaded their load data. Turns out I still like a book, so I updated to the Hornady manual. For the .45 Auto, the Accurate site gives a load range of 7.8 to 8.7 gr. of AA #5 with a 230 gr. jacketed bullet. The Hornady manual for the same powder and bullet combination is 7.1 to 8.3 gr. The range of powder charges from both sources is about 1 gr., but the max load is 0.4 gr. greater on the Accurate site. On the other side, Hercules lists a max of 17.5 gr. of 2400 for my .41 Rem. Mag and a 210 gr. jacketed bullet. The Hornady manual lists a max of 20.0 gr. for the same combination. Applying the rule of thumb of a 10% reduction from max for a starter load for the Hornady data leaves you 0.5 gr. over the Hercules max. Not much of a question here, I guess, but doesn’t it make you pucker up just a little when the “starter” load in one source can be over the maximum in another? When starting from scratch, any opinions on how to balance the risk above with reducing an already conservative load too far?

03-11-2008, 10:32 PM	#3
mitch_mckee Banned Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 1,085 Images: 3	I've seen the same kind of crap. I try to make an educated guess between my sources. Between the manufacturer's manuals, Hornady, Lee, and Internet sources, I can generally come up with something that, at least to date, is safe. One would think that such data would cross reference, especially powder charges, but they don't.

03-11-2008, 10:39 PM	#4
Fishhead Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: The gem state Posts: 12	Billy, Thanks for the offer. I might take you up on it some time, but for now that would take the fun out of building loads. Naturally I had the "hotter" load data first, so I loaded up a series of rounds at 0.1 gr. steps. I'll just have someone on hand to chase down the brass so I can give it a good look over before shooting any more or moving up to the next level. What about the old primers? Can't build a fire with them! Well, maybe, but...

03-11-2008, 10:44 PM	#5
SwedeSteve Bullet Maintenance !! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: The anchor point, Alaska Posts: 10,300 Images: 1	Primers. Put them in a can of old motor oil, throw in garbage bag. Brass: Seems ok, from what I read. Powder: +1 with Billy! Seems odd. Are there such great differences because people are shooting OLD 45's, and the powder compaies are playing it safe? Just mulling it over. Hopefully, more experienced will wegh in. __________________ Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers

03-12-2008, 02:19 PM	#8
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,087	The old primers will work just as good as new ones.The cases are straight walled and when fired stretch out,not up.When resized,no die will push them back to factory meisurements so they are slightly shorter than SAAMI max oal.Sounds like you already know how to work a load up. sam.

03-13-2008, 11:41 PM	#11
Fishhead Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: The gem state Posts: 12	Thanks all for the input. I'll give the old primers a try in some empty cases and see if they all go bang. If they do, there's no sense wasting them. Rich, I agree that when working up to a heavy load you should use load data from the bullet maker, but what about when using powder company load data? Last edited by Fishhead; 03-14-2008 at 12:02 AM. Reason: Others posted while I was writing

03-14-2008, 06:14 AM	#14
aht_six Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Ham Lake, Minnesota Posts: 55	10 year old primers should be just fine if they have been stored in the factory packaging and kept dry. I think it's a good idea to always compare load data from several sources. I called Hornady years ago about some 300 Weatherby load data in their manual (2nd or 3rd edition) that that didn't look right. The Tech immediately told me not to use that data, there had been a mix up and the book was wrong. He gave me the correct info. Sometimes I wonder if powder burn rates evolve a little over time. I have an 8 lbs bottle of H1000 that recommends on the label to use 76.0 grains (reduced 6% to start) for a 7mm Rem mag with a 140 bullet. My Hornady manual fourth edition lists the max to be 75.0 grains. I used the 76.0 grain load for several years without noticing any pressure issues. Now the Hodgdon web site has listed the maximum load with a 140 grain bullet to be 70.0 grains.

03-14-2008, 08:14 AM	#15
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,087	My Hodgdon book lists 70gr of H1000 to be 50,000 Cup,with 140gr bullet in 7mm mag.Cant emagine putting 5 more grains in. sam.

03-14-2008, 07:33 PM	#16
aht_six Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Ham Lake, Minnesota Posts: 55

03-14-2008, 08:35 PM	#17
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,087	I would want to sneak up on that load.Cant emagine what the pressure might be. sam.

03-15-2008, 01:40 PM	#18
Taurus Fan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Cobra Command Headquarters Posts: 781	I've never seen a straight wall pistol case need trimming. Necked rifle cartridges most certainly do.