HELP! which group? - Page 2

toolman · 04-08-2008, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billy

i wish there was a place where i could get 10 bullets each in many different weights.

That's what I wanted to do with the trade thread I tried to start, that way everyone could "sample each others goodies" at no extra cost other than shipping.

billy · 04-08-2008, 09:47 PM

cap'n tool,
i ended up getting some matchkings that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArkansasHunter

billy I'm sorry but I was messing with you when I posted you needed to keep trying.
The groups marked 41.7 and 39.9 are outstanding to say the least...A.H

thank you A.H.,
whats driving me nuts is...
i shot better groups before i bought all this special competition reloading equipment and knew my chamber dimensions!
to top it all off...
i was using lee dies!
AAAAUUUUGGGGHHHHH! ! !

p.s.
i still use my lee collet neck sizer die.
i dont need to full length size this brass.
its fireformed baybee!
and i now have a single stage press dedicated to my handi dandi RCBS COMP.seating die.

AKHunter · 04-08-2008, 11:48 PM

Quote:

good shooting billy!! i would say bottom target, center group top target top right

Those are the two groups/loads I would repeat then stick with if consistant. That is some nice shooting there.

Mooseman684 · 04-09-2008, 12:06 AM

39.9 and 41.7 on the lower target...What more do you want ???
Rich

billy · 04-09-2008, 06:42 AM

smaller groups of course...
MUCH smaller!

i sure would like to buy bulk matchkings.....

sell33 · 04-09-2008, 10:08 AM

lol billy is anything good enough for you???? lol jk of course

billy · 04-09-2008, 10:39 AM

with the 40 gr. loads
and made 3 sets of 10 rnds. with distance from lands at
.005
.015
.020
those groups on the targets were at.010

samuel · 04-09-2008, 03:17 PM

Any time I have a barrel that keeps improving the more I shoot,I change my bore cleaning habbits and only clean the carbon out and wait for 150/200rds to go after copper.I know this one is going to draw static,but in my opinion,depending on barrel and shooting program,it is not necessary to go after copper every cleaning.Some barrels just seem to like a copper buildup.I have rifles that if I go after copper,it will take 20rds+ before they shoot really tight groups.I have others that love a clean bore and start spreading out after 50rds or so.But these usually satrt grouping tight again if I just clean the soot out at the range and clean the copper later.Everyone may not agree but I watch the habbits of a rifle and try to please it,s wants instead of having a strict regimine. sam.

billy · 04-09-2008, 03:22 PM

i just bought 100 sierra matchking 168 gr. bullets.
that seems to be a bullet that the big boys use along with lapua brass.
varget seems to be a popular choice also.

runfiverun · 04-09-2008, 10:17 PM

i am just trying to figure out the heavier nullet takes more powder thing?
those are good groups though.

samuel · 04-10-2008, 08:45 AM

When using more expensive brass,you should be thinking about annealing after 3to5 firings.I hope others get into this and give their system of doing this.Mine has always been to heat with a propane torch as hot as I could and let cool.Others may have a more precise system. sam.

wunhunglo · 04-10-2008, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samuel

When using more expensive brass,you should be thinking about annealing after 3to5 firings.I hope others get into this and give their system of doing this.Mine has always been to heat with a propane torch as hot as I could and let cool.Others may have a more precise system. sam.

Stand in a tray of water 1/2 - 2/3 up the case; heat with torch until red, then tip over into the water thus quenching!

rdale501 · 04-11-2008, 12:57 AM

I know you don't want to reach the melting point, but can you get them too hot without melting?

samuel · 04-11-2008, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdale501

I know you don't want to reach the melting point, but can you get them too hot without melting?

I dont think you can get them to melt with a propane torch,but the way I do it is just get them red and go to the next one.I dont quinch them.I just let them cool.It seems to me that dumping them in water would harden them.I know it would steel.But if it doesnt,I guess it would be ok.The only thing,I always did it the other way and it works,so that is how I will do it. sam.

wunhunglo · 04-11-2008, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samuel

I dont think you can get them to melt with a propane torch,but the way I do it is just get them red and go to the next one.I dont quinch them.I just let them cool.It seems to me that dumping them in water would harden them.I know it would steel.But if it doesnt,I guess it would be ok.The only thing,I always did it the other way and it works,so that is how I will do it. sam.

It is not possible to harden Brass by heat treating but any annealing whatsoever of the cartridge base is over-annealing and is dangerous the last thing you want is the case body & base getting too soft; that is why most people use the safer water tray method, you don't need to tip them over, if you don't want to.

Look long & hard at most mil surp cases and new cases like Lapua, you will see where it is only the case neck & shoulders that have been annealed.

samuel · 04-11-2008, 05:16 PM

I forgot to state it but I do have them in water.I just never quenched them. sam.

billy · 04-11-2008, 07:26 PM

i found this:

DeSimone Explains Annealing with Powered Case-Holder
Successful long-range shooter Rich DeSimone, who holds the 5-shot IBS 1K world record, advocates frequent case-annealing: "On my 1,000-yard cases, I anneal every firing. Probably every other would suffice, but it takes so little time that I do it every time" He anneals one case at a time, but he uses a home-built powered case turner. He assembled a wood box, to which he fitted an $8.00, surplus electric gear reduction motor running at 60 RPM. The motor spins a case-holder he crafted. Prior to building this box, Rich simply chucked his case-holder in a portable electric drill clamped in a bench-vise. With either set-up, cases are secure, yet easily removed--even while spinning. The powered case-holder frees up one hand and speeds up the process considerably.

Rich tells us, "I use Charles Bailey's annealing method. Charles was the 2001 IBS 1,000-yard Benchrest Shooter of the Year. Charles and I shoot together at Hawk's Ridge in NC.

I've turned a small piece on the lathe to hold the cases, either for my powered wood annealing box, or my variable speed drill. (If you use your imagination, you can easily make something similar that will work.) The case sits freely in the case-holder, which is reemed slightly oversize, so it's easy to insert/remove the case. I also cut a step in the case-holder cup so I can use cases with both large and small rim diameters. The motor drive in the box runs at 60 RPM. When I used the drill, I set the speed to around 100 RPM, using a rheostat. RPM isn't critical--you just don't want the case flying out of the fixture, but it does need to turn so the heat is evenly distributed.

While annealing, I turn off the lights except for a small one off to my left which I keep shielded from my eyes. I have a glove on my left hand and I control the torch with my right hand. You want the blue tip of the flame to just touch the neck of the case as it turns. I keep the flame up pretty high. With 6.5-284 AI cases, it takes about six to seven seconds. Watch for the neck to "jussst" start to turn maroon in shade. In other words, watch for the very onset of the neck changing to red. (You'll catch on with a little practice.) At this point, I grab the case near the base with my gloved left hand, lift it from the spinning case-holder and drop it in a bucket full of full-strength CLR (Calcium/Lime/Rust solvent). Then, with the fixture still turning, I grab another case with my gloved left hand, insert the case in the turning fixture, and repeat the process.

It works very well. I can do 50 cases in about ten minutes. I then let the cases sit in the CLR for an hour or two, then rinse several times and brush out the necks with a RCBS nylon case-neck brush. Make sure you have enough CLR in the bucket for the cases to be fully covered or you will get some marks. Remove spent primers before annealing so water will flow through the cases when you rinse and dry them. As far as drying--I just dump them on a big towel and roll them "to and fro". You can just let them air-dry or use a hair dryer to speed the drying process. Sometimes I'll hit them individually with compressed air, then use my heat gun to apply some heat. Overall the procedure may seem complicated, but once you get the hang of it, it's a piece of cake. — Rich DeSimone —

i am going to use my lee case trimmer holder and my cordless drill set on it's lowest speed along with a bucket of water.

rdale501 · 04-11-2008, 08:01 PM

Billy, are you going to be able to put in and take out the cases without turning the drill off and on? It seems to me you would need something simular to the case holder he made. Get that mechinist friend of yours to working on it for ya.

billy · 04-11-2008, 08:55 PM

no i am just going to pick up my drill and dip the case in water.
the drill stands up on it's own.

toolman · 04-11-2008, 09:15 PM

Another method that I saw online somewhere involved a piece of 1\4" thick steel drilled with multiple holes to acommodate the case necks. The guy would heat the drilled strip with a torch until it just started turning red and then drop the case-necks into the holes and leave them there until it cooled. I think his example would do up to 10 cases at a time. I thought about trying it when I get some extra time.

04-09-2008, 12:06 AM	#24
Mooseman684 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Alaska Wilderness Posts: 9,283 Trader Rating: (0)	39.9 and 41.7 on the lower target...What more do you want ??? Rich __________________ You know you might be facing your doom,when all you get is a click when you're expecting a BOOM!

04-09-2008, 06:42 AM	#25
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 10,865 Trader Rating: (0)	smaller groups of course... MUCH smaller! i sure would like to buy bulk matchkings..... __________________ i'll keep an eye out for ya! Last edited by billy; 04-09-2008 at 06:43 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

04-09-2008, 10:39 AM	#27
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 10,865 Trader Rating: (0)	with the 40 gr. loads and made 3 sets of 10 rnds. with distance from lands at .005 .015 .020 those groups on the targets were at.010 __________________ i'll keep an eye out for ya!

04-09-2008, 03:22 PM	#29
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 10,865 Trader Rating: (0)	i just bought 100 sierra matchking 168 gr. bullets. that seems to be a bullet that the big boys use along with lapua brass. varget seems to be a popular choice also. __________________ i'll keep an eye out for ya!

04-11-2008, 07:26 PM	#37
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 10,865 Trader Rating: (0)	i found this: DeSimone Explains Annealing with Powered Case-Holder Successful long-range shooter Rich DeSimone, who holds the 5-shot IBS 1K world record, advocates frequent case-annealing: "On my 1,000-yard cases, I anneal every firing. Probably every other would suffice, but it takes so little time that I do it every time" He anneals one case at a time, but he uses a home-built powered case turner. He assembled a wood box, to which he fitted an $8.00, surplus electric gear reduction motor running at 60 RPM. The motor spins a case-holder he crafted. Prior to building this box, Rich simply chucked his case-holder in a portable electric drill clamped in a bench-vise. With either set-up, cases are secure, yet easily removed--even while spinning. The powered case-holder frees up one hand and speeds up the process considerably. Rich tells us, "I use Charles Bailey's annealing method. Charles was the 2001 IBS 1,000-yard Benchrest Shooter of the Year. Charles and I shoot together at Hawk's Ridge in NC. I've turned a small piece on the lathe to hold the cases, either for my powered wood annealing box, or my variable speed drill. (If you use your imagination, you can easily make something similar that will work.) The case sits freely in the case-holder, which is reemed slightly oversize, so it's easy to insert/remove the case. I also cut a step in the case-holder cup so I can use cases with both large and small rim diameters. The motor drive in the box runs at 60 RPM. When I used the drill, I set the speed to around 100 RPM, using a rheostat. RPM isn't critical--you just don't want the case flying out of the fixture, but it does need to turn so the heat is evenly distributed. While annealing, I turn off the lights except for a small one off to my left which I keep shielded from my eyes. I have a glove on my left hand and I control the torch with my right hand. You want the blue tip of the flame to just touch the neck of the case as it turns. I keep the flame up pretty high. With 6.5-284 AI cases, it takes about six to seven seconds. Watch for the neck to "jussst" start to turn maroon in shade. In other words, watch for the very onset of the neck changing to red. (You'll catch on with a little practice.) At this point, I grab the case near the base with my gloved left hand, lift it from the spinning case-holder and drop it in a bucket full of full-strength CLR (Calcium/Lime/Rust solvent). Then, with the fixture still turning, I grab another case with my gloved left hand, insert the case in the turning fixture, and repeat the process. It works very well. I can do 50 cases in about ten minutes. I then let the cases sit in the CLR for an hour or two, then rinse several times and brush out the necks with a RCBS nylon case-neck brush. Make sure you have enough CLR in the bucket for the cases to be fully covered or you will get some marks. Remove spent primers before annealing so water will flow through the cases when you rinse and dry them. As far as drying--I just dump them on a big towel and roll them "to and fro". You can just let them air-dry or use a hair dryer to speed the drying process. Sometimes I'll hit them individually with compressed air, then use my heat gun to apply some heat. Overall the procedure may seem complicated, but once you get the hang of it, it's a piece of cake. — Rich DeSimone — i am going to use my lee case trimmer holder and my cordless drill set on it's lowest speed along with a bucket of water. __________________ i'll keep an eye out for ya! Last edited by billy; 04-11-2008 at 07:28 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

04-09-2008, 10:08 AM	#26
sell33 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,044 Trader Rating: (0)	lol billy is anything good enough for you???? lol jk of course

04-09-2008, 03:17 PM	#28
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,060 Trader Rating: (0)	Any time I have a barrel that keeps improving the more I shoot,I change my bore cleaning habbits and only clean the carbon out and wait for 150/200rds to go after copper.I know this one is going to draw static,but in my opinion,depending on barrel and shooting program,it is not necessary to go after copper every cleaning.Some barrels just seem to like a copper buildup.I have rifles that if I go after copper,it will take 20rds+ before they shoot really tight groups.I have others that love a clean bore and start spreading out after 50rds or so.But these usually satrt grouping tight again if I just clean the soot out at the range and clean the copper later.Everyone may not agree but I watch the habbits of a rifle and try to please it,s wants instead of having a strict regimine. sam.

04-09-2008, 10:17 PM	#30
runfiverun Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: soda springs idaho Posts: 241 Trader Rating: (0)	i am just trying to figure out the heavier nullet takes more powder thing? those are good groups though.

04-10-2008, 08:45 AM	#31
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,060 Trader Rating: (0)	When using more expensive brass,you should be thinking about annealing after 3to5 firings.I hope others get into this and give their system of doing this.Mine has always been to heat with a propane torch as hot as I could and let cool.Others may have a more precise system. sam.

04-11-2008, 12:57 AM	#33
rdale501 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: oregon Posts: 395 Trader Rating: (0)	I know you don't want to reach the melting point, but can you get them too hot without melting?

04-11-2008, 05:16 PM	#36
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,060 Trader Rating: (0)	I forgot to state it but I do have them in water.I just never quenched them. sam.

04-11-2008, 08:01 PM	#38
rdale501 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: oregon Posts: 395 Trader Rating: (0)	Billy, are you going to be able to put in and take out the cases without turning the drill off and on? It seems to me you would need something simular to the case holder he made. Get that mechinist friend of yours to working on it for ya.

04-11-2008, 08:55 PM	#39
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 10,865 Trader Rating: (0)	no i am just going to pick up my drill and dip the case in water. the drill stands up on it's own. __________________ i'll keep an eye out for ya!

04-11-2008, 09:15 PM	#40
toolman Mr. Fixit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: abilene,tx Posts: 5,363 Trader Rating: (0)	Another method that I saw online somewhere involved a piece of 1\4" thick steel drilled with multiple holes to acommodate the case necks. The guy would heat the drilled strip with a torch until it just started turning red and then drop the case-necks into the holes and leave them there until it cooled. I think his example would do up to 10 cases at a time. I thought about trying it when I get some extra time. __________________ Don't be messin' with my gun!