Making of a blade

[Romey]

Several of you asked for me to take photos to show the many stages of making a custom forged knife. Today i started on of a fellow forumite who ordered one and asked if his could be the one shown so here we go. (Ill let him reveal himself if he so chooses)
I hope I can get the photos in the correct order. Understand some stages are skipped in photos due to needing both hands or having to get a certain stage done while the steel is hot.
So this wont really teach anyone HOW to do it, just the stages it goes through how I do it. Another thing to understand is I am anal about the heattreat, it is half of what makes or breaks the blade, while I forge I go from very very hot (above nonmagnetic temp)and as I forge I forge down a little bit in temperature to refine the steel each time its in the forge.

[Romey]

First thing is first, fire the forge and get it up to temp, when i stick the steel in it will suck the heat from the forge a bit so preheating the forge is first.
Here its ready to go and as hot as it will be, about 2800F or 1537C for our Non U.S. friends. By the way feel free to jump in here and comment or ask questions.

[Romey]

Here is the steel Ill be using for this blade. Generally I use some high grade W-1 from round stock, but recently I got my hands on some REALLY clean, very tight toleranced W-2, The big brother of the former steel so I decided to use it for our friend on the forum here. As you can see its 1x1 square stock that ill be breaking down to about .25 thickness. I like to use barstock over preflattened becuase I am the one that can control the heat the steel takes and allows me to refine the steel as i stated previously. Nothing wrong with either way, just how i like to do it.
To do so though you need help and thats where the second picture comes in, its a 50# power hammer this one called a little giant. I used to break this stock down by hand with a 10 pound sledge but its slow, tiring and your shot by the time its done. I did however gain a 17 inch biceps on my right side from doing it this way.

[Romey]

This is pretty much what it looks like as I am drawing it out. "drawing" means stretching or moving the steel. Its close to the .25 inch that I want now. What i didnt show is I had to forge the sqaure bar into a octagon first becuase the finished blade is narrower then the 1 inch square would be if I went right to flat. No sense wating steel at the grinder when I can shape it with the forge. Also I do as much forging of the blade while its still attached to the bar as I can, no sense using tongs if i dont have to. I also forge the tang in with the trip hammer, shoulders of the blade and tang all forged with trip hammer, which I didnt show pics of. At this point Im slightly less heat then when forging the bar at its original size. Closer to 2000F
I also forge it the distal taper of the blade AND tang with the trip hammer. Distal taper is the taper of the blade from where the guard will be to the tip. It makes a MUCH stronger blade and allows the blade to be nice and narrow at the tip plus its brings balance to the knife overall when its in your hand.

[Romey]

I forgot to mention that I had measured off the length I needed and Hot cut it off the bar stock, I had the tang forged and taperd and the flat where the blade will be tapered some . Both taper in opposit directions to form a Apex RIGHT where the guard will be. All for strength. If you understand geometry youll know why I taper both ways. Strength and balance is why and it reasoning for me starts here and continues through the process. The last pic above shows the taper off the power hammer and im eyeballing it and refining with hand hammer and anvil. Better the forging comes out the easier the grinding will be later, and trust me a belt grinder running 3600 rpm with 36 grit belt is a fast way to fill a scrap pile if things aint just so.
Here the taper is forged in nicely going one way to blade and the other to tail of the tang. So far its a happy blade. First pic shows a decent taper but I want it better so refined a bit more . Much nicer, less grinding to shape.

[Romey]

I didnt get any pics of shaping the rest of the blade as I was coming down in heat, steel is ready faster and altho it dont really hurt to heat it way back up to 2400F or so, but id just as soon keep it gradually coming down to retard grain growth.
Notice the forge isnt as hot as before? At this point Im down around the critical temperature of W-2 and just refining the shape. I have the tip and ricasso forged in as well as the blade edge is pulled down from the flats of the blade and it pretty much looks like a knife.
But whats this! Due to drawing the belly and edge down the steel curved up and I have a slight bend in the spine of the blade. On larger blades I precurve it BACKWARDS so what i draw it out it comes out straight, smaller blades dont move so much but this size blade is about the cut off point of this happening. Sometimes you can get by and sometimes you dont, I didnt.
Issue is if I forge it with the hammer ill push the edge back up into the flats of the blade, and you just go back and forth, So i grabbed a 6 inch chunk of fire wood and beat the wholley hell out of it on the anvil. Problem fixed. Again I probably could have ground it outstraight but why? Im a forger not stock removal maker. Forgers rule, grinders drool!

[Romey]

Basically the forging is done and Its time to Normalize and Anneal the steel. Ill try to not get TO technical with the metalurgy but it maybe asked so this is why. To normalize i take the steel up to its critical temp 3 times, maybe slightly above and let it cool to about 900F without hammering or nothing, let it slow air cool.
Noramizing allows the steel to relax and relieves stresses that forging creates in the steel, also and more importantly it allows the carbides to dissolve on this kind of steel
After normalizing 3 times I anneal which is taking the blade back up to critcal and putting it in vermiculite and letting it cool over night VERY VERY slowly. 5% a hour would be ideal. At anyrate it changes the matrix back to its softest point and sets up for grinding, saves grinder belts and time as the steel is as soft as it can be when its done cooling.
Next time I post it will be grinding and Ill try figure out a way to post the process with out so many posts.

[Nathan123]

The knife is for me.

Romey that is coming along very nicely. It is good to see the pictures of the process, it adds to the excitement. I cant wait to see the pictures of the next step.

And fellas wait until you see the sheath that Romey mentioned in the other thread, it's really something else, much nicer than just a plain sheath like i origionally wanted.

[BattleRifleG3]

Do you do any heat treating after grinding? Annealing after forging and before grinding is a new concept to me. I thought that you'd want to grind after hardening in order to keep the sharpest edge, or is that another step?

Thanks very much for sharing! I'm learning heat treating by full immersion in my line of engineering work.

[Romey]

Yes the heattreating comes after the grinding. When the steel comes from the mill it generally is annealed but heating the steel as well as hammering it changed the structure of the steel (heating above curie point) and hammering it adds stress to the steel (forging) so I reanneal it to back to its annealled state for grinding or drilling any holes ect.
Now some makers will do some polish grinding after heattreat, I dont have to because of the way i heattreat but thats another story. But allllll makers grind the shape and such preheattreat. Thats what annealling is for softening the steel for machining. Once my grinding is dont then I will go to the hardening and tempering, but understand my phylosophy is that the heat treat really starts at the mill. Everytime that steel is heated your in the heat treat process and being aware of every heat and the COMTROLLING the heat makes all the differance. Its all about time and temperature when discussing heat treat.

[BattleRifleG3]

I see, so your forging is for purposes of shaping. Some forging is actually done specifically to change the metallurgy. The legendary Damascus steel is an example.

I'm very intrigued by your operation. I'm considering someday doing some projects involving heat treating, but that would be for purposes of strength and the parts would be machined as their first step.

[Romey]

Yes the reason i forge is for shaping AND refining the steel with HEAT, not the hammer.
Damascus steel is how ever not any better or worse then straight steel and depending on the maker often times worse. Its no better then the steel one puts into it. To clear things up hammering a steel does NOTHING to the matrix of molecules in the steel. Its time and temperature that does this. For instance you cannot pound on iron and it turns into steel, but you add carbon.. you get the picture.
The only area pounding does refine steel is in Japanese nihonto, making a japanese blade of traditional Tahaganame it is folded yes and refined but the smith is also adding high carbon tahagane to his folds> all the hammer is really doing it welding it but its still heat thats doing the welding.
The reason Damascus became a legend and still is today is because crusading knights with often iron or at best low carbon swords fought the Moors who had swords made from "damascus " steel, well they were actually a type of bloom steel from India called Wootz, not from damascus at all, the swords were just sold in Syria. Notice BLOOM STEEL. High carbon. verses euro swords lower carbon, and the ledend of damascus was born. Not magic, still science of metalurgy. There is no such thing as hammer hardening steel or hammer refining, there is some blacksmiths and bladesmiths too that still think there is but think about this. Can a hammer split a atom? or crush it?

[ArkansasHunter]

I wish I had your talents and hand to do what your doing. Your good !!!
Thank you for takeing the time to share your knife makeing skills with the members of Gun and Game.
This site is fortunit to have you as a member...A.H

[Romey]

truelly appreciate the comment from all of you and hope you enjoy the thread, itll likely be a big one by the time its done. A.H. Anyone can developr skills, Id me scared to think of the time and investment I have put into Bladesmithing just to get this far. Definitly not going to be rich doing it but between this and hunting, shooting, teaching Okinawan Karate and training horses its been a great alternitive to focus on other then a bar and pooltable. I never dreamed the amount of varied things Id have to learn to get this far, recently I was made honory member of metalurgy dept from a large school of mines and technology, whodda thunk it

[Nathan123]

Originally Posted by Romey

recently I was made honory member of metalurgy dept from a large school of mines and technology, whodda thunk it

Congratulations mate, from what i have seen you deserve it, they are lucky to have you.

[Romey]

Well only thing it really got me was a dept. of metalurgy shirt or ther then that im still a broke cowhand with a couple great horses

Ill be starting the grinding of your blade tomarrow and may have pics ready then. I had a order ahead of yours as you know but he is being slow on sending some specific sambar stag he wants , like VERY VERY slow so yours as you see is alot further then we figured

[Oxford]

This is an excellent thread. I've enjoyed reading every comment and viewing all the pics. I doubt if most new graduate engineers are taught much of what you've been writing about. They should be, though.

Heat treating is one of our oldest practical sciences. One myth is that some unfortunate slaves of ancient Bablyon rulers were donated to blade makers to be sacrificed as quenching material for their Damascus blades. I used to have a complete narration of how this was supposedly done...but since I've retired from teaching metalworking, that information has been discarded. Only the very best Damascus steel blades were high enough in quality for the wealthy and powerful rulers of that time.

[Nathan123]

Originally Posted by Romey

Ill be starting the grinding of your blade tomarrow and may have pics ready then. I had a order ahead of yours as you know but he is being slow on sending some specific sambar stag he wants , like VERY VERY slow so yours as you see is alot further then we figured

That is good news mate, i am looking forward to seeing the next step, and i am glad that other people are enjoying seeing the process.

[Romey]

Oxford,
I have heard simuliar myths involving slaves and have personally seen very old japanese texts refering to the use of criminals as chopping blocks ro test the quality of a blade by how much of the torso a blade could penetrate. True or not I dont know and am skeptical in that instance concidering the religion of medievl japan being much buddist and later the shinto religion and also i figure it may have been alot like mordern times. Good advertisment be it true or not, open any Blade magazine or K.I and its 95% hype and 5 percent misinformation but it sells. I do know even exsperianced Samurai had personal issues abotu the taking of any life, seemed thier job and their religion conflicted even then, some so much they became monks ect. Anyway on that stand alone I have questioned the validity of a Bladesmith or Samurai doing cutting tests on criminals or anyone else. Days of Bablyon, well we know how that part of the world is NOW, I AM likely to beleive it.

On a side note i thought you all and especially Battlerifle since he brought up the conversation of forge refining, might enjoy this video. It was shot at a friend of mines Blade Hammer in. Sort of a American version of making Tahaganame. Mike Blue who did this demonstration is a very well known Nihonto scholar and he shows and talks breifly about real Tahaganame, which does show a damascus pattern in Traditional Japanese blades. He also somewhat exsplains what I was refering to about myth and fact of Damascus steel.

YouTube - Making Steel from Dirt

Damascus steel really is a misnomer, it infact SHOULD be called simpley pattern welded steel or laminated steel but it sounded much cooler 20 years ago when it was brought back from antiquity by a fellow named Bill Moran. Before him the only pattern welded steel was certian german shotgun barrels and dress knives and swords made by the nazi party and before that I dont know, probably back to the vikings and possible Anglo saxons. Remeber I said swords made in later times, people call damascus from the moors was actually wootz NOT pattern welded steel, Didja catch the timeline trivia? Also notice Mike called the steel they made from Iron sand a BLOOM and Not as he puts it "real" tahaganame. The stuff they made was very high in carbon, tahaganame and japaense swords actually very low, about .60 of carbon on a average
Enjoy

[Romey]

Ok, got a bit more done on Nathans Blade. I got it profiled, ground taper from 36 grit to 400 grit and ready for hand sanding. This is another place where a highquailty custom knife differs from a factory, Most factory knives are ground to 220 grit and many even less then that.
First photo will be showing the rough profiled blade and the taper ground to 120 grit. The blade bevels arent yet ground. All my knives had a distal taper as stated before for the best in strength and cutting. By the way Nathans Blade is a FULL Flat grind with secondary edge bevel that will roughly be a 20 degree edge. I found this offers optimum in cutting and edge retention, Geometry plays as important a task in knife performance as heat treat and this is a happt medium. Factory manufactors know this and use the thicker geometry to make up for lack of heattreat often.