let's debate

[Mooseman684]

Oh there is plenty of documentation on effective range!
My figures come from " Cartridges of the World" as far as My statement of "Sporting range"...IE Hunting animals.
Dept. of the Army field manual C1,Fm23-7 and Dept. of the Air Force Manual AFM 50-4 lists the Max. effective range of the M1 Carbine against PERSONNEL at 275 yards. Training was only to 200 yards and so at 50 yards the gun was sighted at 5-1/2" high to impact at 200 yards.
Rich

[gwhaling]

I plan on trying to come up with a good load and soft nose bullet for brush hunting under fifty yards for deer.
Also I know a marine who was in Korea. Said they used the "little carbine" when they were sent out on night patrols where any fighting would be real close.

[Wingwiper]

I would love to see any soldier hit their intended target at 275 yards. I think what the manual is referring to is simply that is 500 enemy combatants were coming at you and you started shooting in their direction that if you struck one, they would probably be hurting. I really doubt that someone could shoot a BZ at 275 yards with the carbine. I love the little carbine, but ain't no way I would think I could hit my target, in the Black at 275 yards. Now if it was some BIG black, then maybe.

[jimb2]

I'm pretty sure that I could put most of those shots in the black at that distance, but I shoot the carbine in competition. My 4 position scores are in the 350s with the carbine. But is a combat situation, I wouldn't want to be shooting it at those distances. Too much power loss. I'd only try it if the enemy wouldn't come any closer......

[Wingwiper]

Originally Posted by jimb2

I'm pretty sure that I could put most of those shots in the black at that distance, but I shoot the carbine in competition. My 4 position scores are in the 350s with the carbine. But is a combat situation, I wouldn't want to be shooting it at those distances. Too much power loss. I'd only try it if the enemy wouldn't come any closer......

Well jim, you would be the one I would ask then.
Could you aquire a BSZ at 275 yards? For others who may be reading, a BSZ is the distance between the belt and the neck of an average soldier. it is considered the Kill Zone. I would never have guessed a M1 Carbine would be capable of doing so.
How many rounds under a no wind condition would you consider being able to put into that area, at 275 yards?
Would you use standard issue sights? How high would you be aiming, cuz I have a Korean War era Winchester that has a slightly adjustable rear sight that slides over a few indents on a ramp. I would not think that to be enough to accomplish a 275 yd BSZ and my WWII, has no rear sight adjustment and it is a UNDERWOOD.
Looking forward to to your response, this is very interesting.
I know in competition there are some tricks to acquire such feats and am wondering if you would be using the upper corner of a target frame for the sighting.

[sexysete]

Originally Posted by Wingwiper

Looking forward to to your response, this is very interesting.

yes i agree this is exactly why i started this thread

[Wingwiper]

Jimb2

I posted with no disrespect, so please do not read my post as if it filled with sarcasium, it is NOT. I am curious as all get out,how you would do it. I shot competition and on the 600 yd line, many would hold the upper left or upper right corner of the target frame and make the sight adjustments for the V Ring. But..... the M1 carbine has no real sight adjustments. So I was wondering what one would do to accomplish what was discussed, being you compete with them, you would be the point of wisdom for the answers. Hope to hear soon. Thanks

[jimb2]

Lets put it this way....I doubt that in a combat situation, I would get more than one "free" shot. Anyone standing there for the second one would either be an idiot or harbor a death wish. And I take no disrespect from your comments. They are obviously valid. I'm primarily a field shooter, not a target shooter so doping the wind in various situations comes naturally. Using standard GI ammo, my carbines can easily make KZ/BSZ hits at 300, provided I do my job. The flip type rear sight on a carbine is set for 150/300 yd ranges. The adjustable is calibrated to 1.5, 2 and 3 hundred yards BSZ. Windage is the issue, not range settings.
I don't really use any of the standard techniques for sight adjustment because I practice in all weather conditions, warm/wet/windy/freezing/near gail/ etc... I know the firearm that I'm using and how it shoots. I use dead center hold to 6o'clock hold depending on range. At 300 yds or less, wind drift isn't significant enough even with a carbine to cause a clean miss. I also tune the carbine to the ammo by adjusting the height of the front sight. Yes, I do ocassionally have to replace a front sight, but the additional accuracy is worth the effort/expense. BTW I plan on coming home with gold in the carbine match this year. There is a difference between guys like me (and perhaps you as well ) and most other competitors. I don't just think (or hope) that I'm good enough. I know I am! How many rounds at 275? I'd say conservatively 7/10. I'm not on my club's team. I don't want to discourage them nor do I want to be lulled into a false sense of my own ability by consistently beating them. I need to compete against myself to improve. When I start to plateau, I go back to the basics and start over again. I'm not so good that I can't still improve 4-5 points per match. Nor am I good enough that an improvement of 1-3 points is difficult/near impossible to attain. But I want to be that good, so I keep practicing. Some day I'd like to be shooting a 390 avg, but that isn't today...

[neophyte]

Based on "Modern Firearm" 200 meters effective range.
jimb2's assessment figures into the zone.
I haven't read all the postings; finding that 3 different rounds were implemented
7.62x33-.30m1-5.56
My not knowing 'jimb2's' round; I believe the 5-56 [223] round dynamically and physically would be outstanding.
GI Joe's are strange creatures. Let me see if "I" can make that shot and many have at distances greater than imagined. Kill zone? wasn't there.

US armory fellows could and did 'dress up some mighty fine shooters'

[Wingwiper]

Originally Posted by jimb2

Lets put it this way....I doubt that in a combat situation, I would get more than one "free" shot. Anyone standing there for the second one would either be an idiot or harbor a death wish. And I take no disrespect from your comments. They are obviously valid. I'm primarily a field shooter, not a target shooter so doping the wind in various situations comes naturally. Using standard GI ammo, my carbines can easily make KZ/BSZ hits at 300, provided I do my job. The flip type rear sight on a carbine is set for 150/300 yd ranges. The adjustable is calibrated to 1.5, 2 and 3 hundred yards BSZ. Windage is the issue, not range settings.
I don't really use any of the standard techniques for sight adjustment because I practice in all weather conditions, warm/wet/windy/freezing/near gail/ etc... I know the firearm that I'm using and how it shoots. I use dead center hold to 6o'clock hold depending on range. At 300 yds or less, wind drift isn't significant enough even with a carbine to cause a clean miss. I also tune the carbine to the ammo by adjusting the height of the front sight. Yes, I do ocassionally have to replace a front sight, but the additional accuracy is worth the effort/expense. BTW I plan on coming home with gold in the carbine match this year. There is a difference between guys like me (and perhaps you as well ) and most other competitors. I don't just think (or hope) that I'm good enough. I know I am! How many rounds at 275? I'd say conservatively 7/10. I'm not on my club's team. I don't want to discourage them nor do I want to be lulled into a false sense of my own ability by consistently beating them. I need to compete against myself to improve. When I start to plateau, I go back to the basics and start over again. I'm not so good that I can't still improve 4-5 points per match. Nor am I good enough that an improvement of 1-3 points is difficult/near impossible to attain. But I want to be that good, so I keep practicing. Some day I'd like to be shooting a 390 avg, but that isn't today...

Excellent response, Thanks

Good Luck with your Gold, it took me several years and I seem to always miss it by a V. When I did get my Gold, it was a Great feeling of accomplishment, Good Luck to you and remember

HAPPINESS IS A TIGHT ONE

I would still be actively shooting but my eyesight has taken that pleasure from me. shoot your hearts out and be cautious when you get to about 42 or so and you no longer can tell what kind of stone that ant is carrying. It is just downhill from there.


neophyte

Some of my best shots were when I challenged myself and no one was looking.... Then when I tried to tell someone about the shot, I got smiles, nods and "Yeah Rights" Like shooting the bottom out of a bottle at 25 yds without breaking the neck. OPEN SIGHTS. Seems I could ONLY do it when no one was looking or I hadn't made a sustanial bet.

[jimb2]

You mean I'm not the only one who shot the bottom out of the bottle without breaking the neck??!!! Used a .22 RF to do it. I could see a streak from the lead on the inside of the neck, but it didn't break it. And I am well over 42.....pushing 59 actually and getting to be a better shot all the time. I'm becoming more patient with my shooting and its really helping! But I can still see the ant, just not at 100 yards! *LOL*

[neophyte]

Wingwiper: Sir; we do the golf ball thing. Bets are
off with handguns starting out at 50yds. What a hoot to shoot. chasing about out to 100yds.

I fooled them over Thanksgiving. We had water bottle 16oz 20 oz. [6-7 of them]They shot em up before I could get loaded. 75yds I said bottle caps only
I gotta a flyer
Crap happens when you are having fun
They thought I had done it will never tell

[Wingwiper]

Originally Posted by jimb2

You mean I'm not the only one who shot the bottom out of the bottle without breaking the neck??!!! Used a .22 RF to do it. I could see a streak from the lead on the inside of the neck, but it didn't break it. And I am well over 42.....pushing 59 actually and getting to be a better shot all the time. I'm becoming more patient with my shooting and its really helping! But I can still see the ant, just not at 100 yards! *LOL*

I used a Glennfield .22 LR as well.

Hell! I not can't tell what the ant is carrying, I can't even tell if their is an ANT...... Unless it is a Fireant and I am in the Prone, then I have no problem telling.

Originally Posted by neophyte

Wingwiper: Sir; we do the golf ball thing. Bets are
off with handguns starting out at 50yds. What a hoot to shoot. chasing about out to 100yds.

I fooled them over Thanksgiving. We had water bottle 16oz 20 oz. [6-7 of them]They shot em up before I could get loaded. 75yds I said bottle caps only
I gotta a flyer
Crap happens when you are having fun
They thought I had done it will never tell

That is how I learned to shoot. When I was a kid, I would load up and go to the dump and shoot rats, locks on car doors, anything small and would stand out was a potential target. I also use to Tweety Bird hunt and I still feel abad about that. My biggest thrill was shooting skippers or Dragon Flies over water.
I guess we all had our own thrills that sharpen our skills.