I saw something that really peaked my intrest on Guns and Ammo TV the other night. It was a Japanese version of the M1 Garand. They said that close to the end of the war, Japan was trying to build a semi-auto rifle and copied the M-1 since it was really the only semi-auto in use in WWII that they had access to. They made some improvments such as extending the magazine to hold 10rds without an en-bloc clip, and re chambered it for 7.7 Jap. Fortuneatly it came to late in the war to be issued to the troops, and only about 1200 to 1500 were supposedly built. It would have made a drastic difference in the outcome of the war had it came earlier.
__________________
NAHC Life member #40649874
G&G CETME Club
The PSL Lounge
Minister
you will sometimes see their shows on how Japan, like Germany,
burst forth with a great many advanced designs (particularly in
aviation) as they reached the point they could not produce these
advances. This was good for America and our fellow fighting nations.
If these advances had been available at the beginning of WW2 both Germany and Japan could have made the war a much more horrific event.
Although I am not familiar with the particular gun you mention it is logical that it existed.
Sounds very cool, but it wouldnt have made a difference in the war in the pacific. The japense didnt have the resources to do anything drastic like make abunch of semi automatic rifles...Give you an idea, the Japense started using bi-planes because they couldnt afford to make anymore aircraft for the kamazi runs, plus we ended the war with nukes, so no semiautomatic rifle is going to win a war when the other side has nuclear bombs.
Niko, at some point you need to read the Operations Plans for Operation Downfall, the invasion of Japan. Operation Downfall consisted of two parts.
Operation Olympic was the invasion of the southern islands of Japan, for the purpose of obtaining land to build air bases. it was to take place in the fall of 1945.
Operation Coronet was the knockout punch to capture the rest of the Home Islands. It was scheduled for the spring of 1946.
Please note these was going to be staged solely with American troops. The armies Dwight Eisenhower had commanded in Europe were being stripped of their seasoned divisions, which were being sent back to the States for retraining and re-equipping, and then were going to be loaded on troopships to make the assault on Japan. The Royal Navy had its grandiosely titled "Pacific Fleet" attached to the US Navy, true; but their so-called "Fleet" was about equal in numbers to one American carrier task group. And I have nowhere seen evidence that the British intended to transfer signficant numbers of ground or air forces to participate in the operation.
How bad did the planners expectr American casualties to be? Looking only at the land assault force, you can get an idea. The Marine Corps' First Marine Division was to land first on one set of beaches. On D-Day, the Op Plan talks about the First Marine Division. On D Plus 1, it talks about the separate regiments that made up the division. On D Plus 2, it talks about the battalions of the division. After that, the First Marine Divison and its subsidiary units ar enot mentioned.
In other words, the operation planners were assuming that by D Plus 3, the First Marine Division would no longer exist as a fighting force. It would have taken so many casualties that the survivors would have had to be pulled out of the line to be re-equipped and reconstituted with fresh Marine troops. Do you have any idea how many casualties it takes to decimate a division to the point it can no longer fight? How does 30% killed out of 20,000 men grab you?
And that was just one division of the thirty-odd divisions the Joint Chiefs planned to commit to the operation. Not just the Army and Marine divisions that had been fighting the Japanese since 1942, but the veteran Army divisions that had won the war in Europe as well, plus the entire 8th Air Force.
Some historians say it would not have been as bad as that. But Norman Schwartzkopf, back when he was a cadet at West Point, did a paper on what would have happened if we had had to stage Operation Downfall. One bit of information he came across to indicate what some of the people not privy to the details of the operation thought was going to happen is telling.
It's the job of the Army's Quartermaster Corps to have supplies of anything and everything that is needed for military operations. This means they have to ordwer what they think they are going to need in advance of the commencing of the operation.
The Quartermaster Corps ordered 750,000 Purple Heart medals, with box, medal ribbon and enamel lapel pin for wear with civilian clothing.
That's how many servicemen killed and wounded they expected, based on the Army's past experience with fighting in the Pacific Theater. With or without a semi-auto Japanese infantry rifle, they expected the US armed forces would take three quarters of a million casualties. With that reverse-engineered Garand coupled with the fanatic spirit of Bushido, I think casualties would have been worse than that. We'd have won eventually, but either at the cost of a Pyrrhic victory that resulted in hundreds of thousands of American troops killed or after a campaign that would have amounted to genocide, so thoroughly were the people of Japan brainwashed against the "Yankee Devils."
The horrendous possibility of an American 'lost generation' to match that of England and France after World War I was one of the reasons Truman made the decision to drop the atomic bombs. He'd seen combat and knew what the stakes were; and like the good officer he had been, expended ordnance rather than the lives of his troops.
The "Japanese Garand" is a rarity. We should thank God it is so. Many of us would not be here on this forum if the United States had had to invade the Japanese homeland.
Nicely said Cyrano. Most people do not realize the importance of dropping the bomb in trade for saving our troops lives. I do not like the idea of having used the atomic bomb mind you but still it was a most efficient and effective tool to end the war quickly and save more lives-both American soldiers and Japanese civilians- as compared to a land invasion.
The Japanese Garand would not have made any difference in the outcome of the war. Now if the Japanese had had this rifle from the begining though, it would be possible that the war would have dragged out significantly longer with more casulties but the Japanese would have still lost eventually.
u opened a whole can of worms. If the nazis and japs would have produced these weapons i think there would still be a nazi empire the japs we wouldve just bombed the crap out of as a matter of fact plans were made to drop 9 additional atomic bombs to soften the invasion.which by the way would prolly be combined us and soviets.
Forgot all about this thread...though i didnt read all of Cyrano's post but even still the rifle would have made no difference because they didn't have the resources to build it now what Shootathrill was saying is true if they could have produced the weapon in mass quanitys to give to there military it could have made a difference in dragging on the war but in the end we would have still dropped the bombs and end the war
Cyrano is right on target, good post and id like to add IF the Japanese has this rifle, or the germans had any number of single weapons they developed but to little to late, had they done so earlier on by even a few months it may have given the axis powers enough to to have thier Bomb created FIRST as i beleive it was simpley a matter of weeks as to who got it made first. Anything even as much as a semi auto rifle stalling the US push may have made all the differance in who got a Nuke going first.
Many veterans that served in WW2 are adiment that having the garand made all the differance in winning the war, if true, the what if could easily be reversed.
Well Albert Einstien came to America telling us about the germans planning to make a nuclear bomb and i dont think it would have been as close as weeks, but again Germany didn't have the resources to keep fighting because of the US stocking supply routes and bombings..(which is why during the battle of the bulge the Nazi tanks just stopped rolling because they had no gas!) And Romey yes the garand was a great weapon it was the FIRST semi automatic rifle to be issued to a military. There fore meaning we had it before other militarys and what we are saying is if they could have produced that japenese m1 it was still to late..
The Japanese never had a chance. It was pretty much over by 1942. Yes we would have nuked them till the island sank but what horrified Japan to surrendering was not the nukes, but the 1,000 B-29s that flew over Tokyo after bombing Nagasaki. If the Japanese M1 was as junky as the Arisaka's there was nothing to worry about.
You do realize more people died in the fire bombing of Toyko then Nagasaki and Hiroshima combined? The USA bluffed the Japs. After the third A bomb was dropped the US was out of bombs. They could build more but it would have taken time.
I am just glad we did not have to invade Japan.
If there was no Pearl Harbor there would have been no Hiroshima.
__________________
It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived.
I honestly feel that several contributors have grossly underestimated the ingenuity and craftsmanship of the Japanese. True, the late war era firearms were frequently poorly made due to time and materials constraints but the designs are mostly sound and the prewar fabrication efforts were generally quite good. Japanese engineers were very capable of generating their own designs and certainly in improving other designs. We tend sometimes to fall into the mindset that American WWII domestic media had in the way that Japanese were portrayed and that their equipment was junk.
Location: "...upon the east bank of Big Blue River, a mile or two north of the point where that stream crosses the Michigan road"
Posts: 1,646
Quote:
Originally Posted by fred
I honestly feel that several contributors have grossly underestimated the ingenuity and craftsmanship of the Japanese. True, the late war era firearms were frequently poorly made due to time and materials constraints but the designs are mostly sound and the prewar fabrication efforts were generally quite good. Japanese engineers were very capable of generating their own designs and certainly in improving other designs. We tend sometimes to fall into the mindset that American WWII domestic media had in the way that Japanese were portrayed and that their equipment was junk.
The Zero and for that matter their early recognition of the value of the Aircraft Carrier sure took us by surprise...pun intended!!!
__________________
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors... and miss." -- Lazarus Long
Hi, all,
On the "Jap M-1", the N.R.A. did an excellent article on them in their "American Rifleman" "Questions and Answers", Sep't. of 1995 issue--
Apparently it was the Japanese Navy that began a development program on them, in 1943, for the benefit of the Jap Navy Paratroop command! They converted captured U.S. M-1s to the Jap 7.7 cartridge, but had problems with the enbloc clip system, and developed a fixed 10 round magazine for them, fed by 2-5 round clips. Despite parts breakages and feeding problems, the Yokosuka Naval Arsenal adopted it in April of 1945, and called it the "Type 5".
Drawings for the "Type 4" rifle were found there in 1946, and at least 2 Type 5's were brought home by returning G-I's. Apparently only 125 of the Type 5 were assembled, but there were parts for another 200 manufactured, in the closing days of the war. This is according to U.S. Army Ordnance records.
Hope this helps!
Fred (Honcho)
You do realize more people died in the fire bombing of Toyko then Nagasaki and Hiroshima combined? The USA bluffed the Japs. After the third A bomb was dropped the US was out of bombs. They could build more but it would have taken time.
I am just glad we did not have to invade Japan.
If there was no Pearl Harbor there would have been no Hiroshima.
Roger that. Two huge invasions of the Japanese home islands were planned; Operation Olympic scheduled for November 1945 and Operation Coronet scheduled to follow on March 1946. Both operations would have dwarfed the previous Operation Overlord at Normandy, France; itself, the biggest invasion in the history of warfare. The manpower requirements would have meant movement of the U.S. Fifth Army from Europe and almost all reserves in the United States. Projected casualty estimates were around the one million mark. The Japanese would certainly have fared far worse.
You're correct concerning the manufacture of additional atomic bombs. Even during the Korean War, five years later, there just weren’t that many nuclear weapons yet. Mass production didn't really kick off until the completion of the two nuclear material plants and the Soviet announcement that they let the "other" genie out of the bottle.
