Do I have a 308 or 30-06?

meetajs@roadrun · 07-10-2008, 11:00 PM

Hello,
I am new to the M1 Garand. I purchased a used Springfield Armory M1 Garand that was sold as a 308. I got it home and took a closer look, and see that it says;

" US rifle
caliber .30 M1
Springfield
Armory
7109XXX"

1. What caliber rifle do I have?
2. What belongs in the Butt Stock?
3. Where can I buy En Bloc Clips?

Thank you,

M14man · 07-10-2008, 11:05 PM

Theoretically it could be either, but likely it is a .308 if sold to you as such. It is commercially made. With the trigger mechanism out of the gun, try to slip a 30:06 into the chamber. It it does not go in all the way, it is a .308.
Clips are available almost everywhere. A Garand cleaning kit goes in the recesses of the butt stock.

meetajs@roadrun · 07-11-2008, 09:02 AM

Thank you for your response. If it was a 308, it wouldn't say 308 on the rifle? Or do you mean it could have been converted? All of the information I can find on-line about the M1 Garand refers to the military 30-06.

Anyway, thank you very much!

wunhunglo · 07-11-2008, 09:57 AM

.30 cal can be a bit misleading, sometimes it can mean .30-06 and at other times .308/7.62. Military rifles, as far as I'm aware, have never come stamped with .308.

Best way was suggested earlier, try a .3006 shell (or case) in the chamber, if it fits it's 3006, if not it's probably 7.62/308.
If you can't get hold of a 3006 and decide to try it the other way and fire a 308 in it, do it remotely and check the fired case, it will tell you immediately if it's 308 or 3006.

Ben Hartley · 07-11-2008, 11:00 AM

Meet...

Your rifle is a Springfield Armory, Incorporated (Spfld Inc) commercial product; the 7-million serial number is the giveaway. No USGI M1 rifles were serialed in the 7 millions. Although the rifle may contain many USGI parts, the receivers are commercial reproductions.

Spfld Inc chambered their M1s in both .308 and .30-'06, so yours might very well be either. With the stamping on your rifle, I'd be inclined to call it out as .30-'06. It is of course possible that your rifle was originally built as a .30-'06 and later rebarrelled as a .308. That's not too likely, perhaps, but I'd be very sure before making any attempt to fire it.

Recall that .308 ammo is shorter than .30-'06; with the bolt open, is there a plastic (or similar material) block in the front of the "cartridge well?" If so, that's an indication that you indeed have a .308. If no such blocking is present, you might have either, and you'll have to try inserting a cartridge for test purposes. If you're still not sure, take the rifle to a reputable gunsmith, and have him (or her) diagnose the caliber.

HTH

Ben Hartley

SoDakHunter · 07-11-2008, 11:07 AM

^ + 1 If you are inexperienced just take it into the local gunsmith and have him check it out. Probably take less than a 2 minutes.

Oxford · 07-11-2008, 11:12 AM

It's not worth taking a chance on a guess. Ben Hartley's advice is what you should follow.

Mike Franklin · 07-11-2008, 11:24 AM

Years ago there were M-1s and M-1As built in several different commercial calibers, most by factories some by individual gunsmiths. I've seen .308 and .270 Garands. I have seen .243 M-1As.
Best to check. Oh and when the US was testing the .308 there were chamber inserts made. They were put into the .30-06 to make it into a .308. This 'conversion' did not work well.

Ben Hartley · 07-11-2008, 07:10 PM

Meets...

Properly, the .308 Winchester is not a military round at all; its close cousin -- which is not the same -- is the 7.62mm NATO.

Wunhunglo is correct, I believe; military issue rifles would be stamped with the military designation: in this case, 7.62mm NATO. (Just for icing on the cake, and off topic to boot, what's the difference between a .30 Army and a .30-'06? Yes, it's a bit of a trick question.)

It might be a bit daunting to find a gunsmith, so here are partial results from a Google search for "Gunsmiths in California."

Eureka Guns | Eureka Gunsmiths

Please note that there are two pages to this listing. I don't know how close any of these are to you, but, well...

In your first post, you asked about sources for M1 enbloc clips: here are two:

First, Fulton Armory,
http://www.fulton-armory.com/indexf-special.htm

Second, Tony Pucci at Orion 7,
http://www.m1garandrifle.com/

You also asked about what went in the M1 buttstock; take a look here for the component parts of the M1 buttstock cleaning kit:

http://www.civilianmarksmanship.com/accessories.html

HTH

Ben Hartley

Mike Franklin · 07-15-2008, 07:57 PM

The 30 Army is what we call the .30-40-Krag.
The 30 USA was the .30-40 Rimless, a short lived round loaded by UMC.

Moss500Bantam · 07-16-2008, 06:58 AM

It's interesting to note the US Navy "sleeved" some Garands to a .308/7.62 chamber. The chances of having one are pretty slim I would think. Definitely good advice to get it checked. You could have it checked for propper head space and kill two birds with one stone.

Ben Hartley · 07-16-2008, 12:02 PM

Yea! for Mike Franklin; the ".30 Army" cartridge is, indeed, the .30-40 Krag round. And thanks for telling me about the .30-40 Rimless; I didn't know about that one.

And sorta Nay to Moss: the rifle in question, belonging to meetajs and about which he asked several questions to start this thread, is a commercial "reproduction" by Springfield, Incorporated, and not a USGI rifle at all. I hesitate to say that it couldn't have been sleeved -- never say never, donchaknow -- but it's unlikely. Sure, the Navy "sleeved" a sizable number of USGI M1s as an economy move when US issue ammunition was restandardised as the 7.62 NATO. It was discovered after a time, however, that the sleeve modification / chamber insert was not satisfactory, so many of the modified rifles were rebuilt with newly manufactured barrels.

Are some of the Navy "conversions" still around? Sure. Many? Prob'ly not. But the Navy, to my knowledge never sleeved or rebuilt a commercial rifle.

(Now, sure as fits, sombody'll haul a Navy-modified commercial M1 out of a safe someplace, and post pictures of it. The comment will be somewhat along the lines of "OK, smartypants! Here ya' go! See? Huh, huh? See?" LOL and [grin])

HTH

Ben Hartley

twtalbot · 07-17-2008, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoDakHunter

^ + 1 If you are inexperienced just take it into the local gunsmith and have him check it out. Probably take less than a 2 minutes.

Some have been converted with a chamber insert that a gunsmith can remove if you want.

Ben Hartley · 07-17-2008, 02:13 PM

Regarding the chamber inserts on Navy 7.62mm rifles:

Twtalbot wrote: "Some have been converted with a chamber insert that a gunsmith can remove if you want."

Well, yes, that's so... up to a point. In general, however, the Navy's conversion from .30-'06 to 7.62mm involved boring out and roughening the chamber area so as to make the insert less likely to be extracted/ejected during firing. You cannot safely chamber anything in the bored-out "chamber!"

In any case, I'd be very reluctant to fire an M1 with a 7.62mm chamber insert in it. Sure, sure, lots of folks have, and there doesn't seem to be much (if any) documentation of personal injury resulting from a malfunctioning insert. Just remember, though: you've got 50,000 psi just a few inches from your head. You want to take the chance? I sure don't.

HTH

Ben Hartley

M14man · 07-17-2008, 04:20 PM

I have a feeling we will never hear from the poster again, it's been a week. I hate being left up in the air, although the result actually doesn't matter, just so he knows...

Rambo · 07-17-2008, 04:24 PM

.30M1 is the 30-06, at least on my Garand and all my ammo cans.

mosquitofish · 07-17-2008, 04:46 PM

taste the barrel . if it's sweet its a .308. bitter 30-06. at least thats how I check.
R R R

GlockMeister · 07-17-2008, 05:16 PM

Sounds to me like the guy should just take it to a competent gunsmith and make sure. This way he doesn't himself get injured and or doesn't ruin the rifle...

Hello and welcome to the site meetajs...

07-10-2008, 11:00 PM	#1
meetajs@roadrun Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Northeast CA Posts: 2 Trader Rating: (0)	Do I have a 308 or 30-06? Hello, I am new to the M1 Garand. I purchased a used Springfield Armory M1 Garand that was sold as a 308. I got it home and took a closer look, and see that it says; " US rifle caliber .30 M1 Springfield Armory 7109XXX" 1. What caliber rifle do I have? 2. What belongs in the Butt Stock? 3. Where can I buy En Bloc Clips? Thank you,

07-11-2008, 09:02 AM	#3
meetajs@roadrun Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Northeast CA Posts: 2 Trader Rating: (0)	Thank You Thank you for your response. If it was a 308, it wouldn't say 308 on the rifle? Or do you mean it could have been converted? All of the information I can find on-line about the M1 Garand refers to the military 30-06. Anyway, thank you very much!

07-11-2008, 09:57 AM	#4
wunhunglo Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: currently "Sunny West Africa" Posts: 1,373 Trader Rating: (0)	.30 cal can be a bit misleading, sometimes it can mean .30-06 and at other times .308/7.62. Military rifles, as far as I'm aware, have never come stamped with .308. Best way was suggested earlier, try a .3006 shell (or case) in the chamber, if it fits it's 3006, if not it's probably 7.62/308. If you can't get hold of a 3006 and decide to try it the other way and fire a 308 in it, do it remotely and check the fired case, it will tell you immediately if it's 308 or 3006. Last edited by wunhunglo; 07-11-2008 at 10:13 AM.

07-11-2008, 11:00 AM	#5
Ben Hartley Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Jaffrey, New Hampshire Posts: 146 Trader Rating: (0)	.30-'06 or .308 Meet... Your rifle is a Springfield Armory, Incorporated (Spfld Inc) commercial product; the 7-million serial number is the giveaway. No USGI M1 rifles were serialed in the 7 millions. Although the rifle may contain many USGI parts, the receivers are commercial reproductions. Spfld Inc chambered their M1s in both .308 and .30-'06, so yours might very well be either. With the stamping on your rifle, I'd be inclined to call it out as .30-'06. It is of course possible that your rifle was originally built as a .30-'06 and later rebarrelled as a .308. That's not too likely, perhaps, but I'd be very sure before making any attempt to fire it. Recall that .308 ammo is shorter than .30-'06; with the bolt open, is there a plastic (or similar material) block in the front of the "cartridge well?" If so, that's an indication that you indeed have a .308. If no such blocking is present, you might have either, and you'll have to try inserting a cartridge for test purposes. If you're still not sure, take the rifle to a reputable gunsmith, and have him (or her) diagnose the caliber. HTH Ben Hartley Last edited by Ben Hartley; 07-11-2008 at 11:03 AM.

07-11-2008, 11:12 AM	#7
Oxford Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Gladstone, Missouri Posts: 12,987 Trader Rating: (0)	It's not worth taking a chance on a guess. Ben Hartley's advice is what you should follow. __________________ "If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right".

07-10-2008, 11:05 PM	#2
M14man Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: FLA Posts: 367 Trader Rating: (0)	Theoretically it could be either, but likely it is a .308 if sold to you as such. It is commercially made. With the trigger mechanism out of the gun, try to slip a 30:06 into the chamber. It it does not go in all the way, it is a .308. Clips are available almost everywhere. A Garand cleaning kit goes in the recesses of the butt stock.

07-11-2008, 11:07 AM	#6
SoDakHunter Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Sioux Falls, SD Posts: 353 Trader Rating: (0)	^ + 1 If you are inexperienced just take it into the local gunsmith and have him check it out. Probably take less than a 2 minutes.

07-11-2008, 11:24 AM	#8
Mike Franklin Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Poteet, Texas Posts: 1,277 Trader Rating: (0)	Years ago there were M-1s and M-1As built in several different commercial calibers, most by factories some by individual gunsmiths. I've seen .308 and .270 Garands. I have seen .243 M-1As. Best to check. Oh and when the US was testing the .308 there were chamber inserts made. They were put into the .30-06 to make it into a .308. This 'conversion' did not work well. __________________ Aim real good we're nearly out of ammo.

07-11-2008, 07:10 PM	#9
Ben Hartley Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Jaffrey, New Hampshire Posts: 146 Trader Rating: (0)	Finding a Gunsmith, and other things Meets... Properly, the .308 Winchester is not a military round at all; its close cousin -- which is not the same -- is the 7.62mm NATO. Wunhunglo is correct, I believe; military issue rifles would be stamped with the military designation: in this case, 7.62mm NATO. (Just for icing on the cake, and off topic to boot, what's the difference between a .30 Army and a .30-'06? Yes, it's a bit of a trick question.) It might be a bit daunting to find a gunsmith, so here are partial results from a Google search for "Gunsmiths in California." Eureka Guns \| Eureka Gunsmiths Please note that there are two pages to this listing. I don't know how close any of these are to you, but, well... In your first post, you asked about sources for M1 enbloc clips: here are two: First, Fulton Armory, http://www.fulton-armory.com/indexf-special.htm Second, Tony Pucci at Orion 7, http://www.m1garandrifle.com/ You also asked about what went in the M1 buttstock; take a look here for the component parts of the M1 buttstock cleaning kit: http://www.civilianmarksmanship.com/accessories.html HTH Ben Hartley Last edited by Ben Hartley; 07-12-2008 at 10:27 AM. Reason: added URL's

07-15-2008, 07:57 PM	#10
Mike Franklin Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Poteet, Texas Posts: 1,277 Trader Rating: (0)	The 30 Army is what we call the .30-40-Krag. The 30 USA was the .30-40 Rimless, a short lived round loaded by UMC. __________________ Aim real good we're nearly out of ammo.

07-16-2008, 06:58 AM	#11
Moss500Bantam Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 253 Trader Rating: (0)	It's interesting to note the US Navy "sleeved" some Garands to a .308/7.62 chamber. The chances of having one are pretty slim I would think. Definitely good advice to get it checked. You could have it checked for propper head space and kill two birds with one stone. __________________ I don't know how a PC works. I just know how to use it. I know how a gun works, and how to use it.

07-16-2008, 12:02 PM	#12
Ben Hartley Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Jaffrey, New Hampshire Posts: 146 Trader Rating: (0)	Yea! and Nay (sorta) Yea! for Mike Franklin; the ".30 Army" cartridge is, indeed, the .30-40 Krag round. And thanks for telling me about the .30-40 Rimless; I didn't know about that one. And sorta Nay to Moss: the rifle in question, belonging to meetajs and about which he asked several questions to start this thread, is a commercial "reproduction" by Springfield, Incorporated, and not a USGI rifle at all. I hesitate to say that it couldn't have been sleeved -- never say never, donchaknow -- but it's unlikely. Sure, the Navy "sleeved" a sizable number of USGI M1s as an economy move when US issue ammunition was restandardised as the 7.62 NATO. It was discovered after a time, however, that the sleeve modification / chamber insert was not satisfactory, so many of the modified rifles were rebuilt with newly manufactured barrels. Are some of the Navy "conversions" still around? Sure. Many? Prob'ly not. But the Navy, to my knowledge never sleeved or rebuilt a commercial rifle. (Now, sure as fits, sombody'll haul a Navy-modified commercial M1 out of a safe someplace, and post pictures of it. The comment will be somewhat along the lines of "OK, smartypants! Here ya' go! See? Huh, huh? See?" LOL and [grin]) HTH Ben Hartley Last edited by Ben Hartley; 07-16-2008 at 03:05 PM. Reason: corrected spelling (!)

07-17-2008, 02:13 PM	#14
Ben Hartley Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Jaffrey, New Hampshire Posts: 146 Trader Rating: (0)	Navy M1 Chamber Inserts Regarding the chamber inserts on Navy 7.62mm rifles: Twtalbot wrote: "Some have been converted with a chamber insert that a gunsmith can remove if you want." Well, yes, that's so... up to a point. In general, however, the Navy's conversion from .30-'06 to 7.62mm involved boring out and roughening the chamber area so as to make the insert less likely to be extracted/ejected during firing. *You cannot safely chamber anything* in the bored-out "chamber!"** In any case, I'd be very reluctant to fire an M1 with a 7.62mm chamber insert in it. Sure, sure, lots of folks have, and there doesn't seem to be much (if any) documentation of personal injury resulting from a malfunctioning insert. Just remember, though: you've got 50,000 psi just a few inches from your head. You want to take the chance? I sure don't. HTH Ben Hartley

07-17-2008, 04:20 PM	#15
M14man Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: FLA Posts: 367 Trader Rating: (0)	I have a feeling we will never hear from the poster again, it's been a week. I hate being left up in the air, although the result actually doesn't matter, just so he knows...

07-17-2008, 04:24 PM	#16
Rambo Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Iowa Posts: 576 Trader Rating: (0)	.30M1 is the 30-06, at least on my Garand and all my ammo cans. __________________ If you run, you'll just die tired.

07-17-2008, 04:46 PM	#17
mosquitofish Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: So. Calif. Posts: 297 Trader Rating: (0)	taste the barrel . if it's sweet its a .308. bitter 30-06. at least thats how I check. R R R __________________ Earth humor

07-17-2008, 05:16 PM	#18
GlockMeister Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Northern Illinois Posts: 4,952 Trader Rating: (0)	Sounds to me like the guy should just take it to a competent gunsmith and make sure. This way he doesn't himself get injured and or doesn't ruin the rifle... Hello and welcome to the site meetajs... __________________ I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6!