Big Mistake...

Bravo · 07-11-2008, 05:31 PM

I made a huge mistake today...I shot a Garand at my local range.

I've always loved how they looked, but never felt the need to get one, since I have a Springfield 1903 to fill my 30-06 shooting needs.

Once I shot this, I thought...woah, where is the recoil? Why isn't my shoulder yelling at me like it does when I fire my M1903? The recoil is remarkably light, remarkably smooth. I actually hit paper at 200 yards with iron sights and made some sort of group (a large group, but a group nonetheless).

Anyway, I'm thinking about getting one eventually. I'm just afraid that my M1903 might lose all of its attention...

Capt'n Mil Coll · 07-11-2008, 05:57 PM

Its number 2 on my list of fun rifles to shoot. I love hearing that ping when the en bloc clip pops.

Niko911 · 07-11-2008, 05:59 PM

Defintly, the weight and it being semi-automatic helps out with the recoil alot

Delta-3 · 07-11-2008, 06:36 PM

It usually only takes one shot to get the"fever". The only known cure is to purchase one!

Bravo · 07-11-2008, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt'n Mil Coll

Its number 2 on my list of fun rifles to shoot. I love hearing that ping when the en bloc clip pops.

The ping at the end of it was amazing. Something that I've heard tales of, heard in movies, but never real life. I was told that enemies would wait to hear this sound and use it as an advantage. I was also recently told that this was BS, since in war you wouldn't be able to hear it.

Lets just say that with ear protection, and with others firing big bore rifles around me, the "ping" was very distinct, and very loud. It was music to my ears.

Capt'n, may I ask what #1 is on your list?

nathangdad · 07-11-2008, 07:32 PM

battle rifle design and human engineering for the millions of troops
coming later in history who needed (even if they did not realize it)
a user friendly/shooter friendly rifle. The human engineering aspect
added greatly to our success in WW2.

It is one of the greatest inventions in the history of warfare.

Ben Hartley · 07-11-2008, 07:50 PM

Nathangdad...

You're in good company with your assessment of the M1: "It is one of the greatest inventions in the history of warfare."

"In my opinion, the M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised." -- LtGen George S. Patton, Jr.

FWIW, I certainly concur with both of you. [grin]

Ben Hartley

oldjarhead · 07-13-2008, 08:42 PM

Bravo,
Welcome to the affliction of addiction to the Garand. It hasn't even begun. Once you get one, you're going to want another...then another.
It is a great feeling to hold all that history and feel the slight recoil and hear that tell-tale ping as the en bloc flies.
Not to mention the inevitable M1 Thumb...lol...oh yes it will happen eventually.

Niko911 · 07-14-2008, 12:25 AM

Bravo i have heard that enemys would wait till they heard the ping of the clip and pop up and start shooting on the military channel so i know that it was true...but solders would throw one of there magazines at the ground so simulate the sound to trick the enemys and reverse it on them

Orlando · 07-14-2008, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niko911

military channel so i know that it was true...

Just cause you heard it on TV dont make it true. Those shows on the Military Channel have alot of myths and BS on them. Want the facts talk to a Veteran

oldjarhead · 07-14-2008, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orlando

Just cause you heard it on TV dont make it true. Those shows on the Military Channel have alot of myths and BS on them. Want the facts talk to a Veteran

Aww...what the heck. True or not it makes a good story.
Another story goes...the Nazis knew the Allies had '03's and the like that held 5 rounds and then had to be reloaded. When the garand was fielded with it 8 round bloc, the Americans would shoot 5 rounds and then pause. The Germans, thinking the GI's were reloading would stick their heads out to shoot at the GI's and they would get blasted with the extra 3 rounds from the Garand.

Orlando · 07-14-2008, 01:47 PM

That sounds more believeable

Jersey Jailer · 07-14-2008, 03:07 PM

Bruce Canfield ( www.brucecanfield.com ) wrote two articles on the "ping" trick. Canfields quals are in his web site. He de-bunks the ping trick as an urban legend. It's almost believable, but when you think of it, in a mini-mad moment, you're not going to hear it.

Orlando · 07-14-2008, 03:34 PM

Copied from Canfields site:

You’d think the History Channel would know better! - More on the M1 “ping”

I recently watched a program on the History Channel about the 10 “greatest” military rifles. After viewing the program, I had conflicting feelings about the content. Overall, I thought it was OK in the context of the typical History Channel military programs which are typically superficial and sometimes a bit lax with the facts. One could quibble with the respective rankings but, overall, it wasn’t as bad as some of their presentations. There was, however, one really egregious exception. Several U.S. military rifles were ranked in the top 10 including the M14, the M1903 and the M1 Garand. The M1 was, as I recall, ranked #4 in the order (“10” was the lowest ranked and “1” was best). The brief thumbnail sketch of the M1 was decent. However, the alleged “defect” of the pinging noise that the M1 makes upon ejection of the empty clip was cited as a major problem with the rifle that (quote)….”cost the lives of large numbers of American soldiers…” (if that’s not an exact quote, it’s close). This stupid myth has been around since the adoption of the Garand rifle in 1936 and is apparently still alive and well today. I did a piece on this website a long time ago debunking the myth as an absurdity and mentioned that there has not been one single documented instance where the “ping” resulted in the death of an American soldier. I would have expected this sort of tripe from some History Channel “researcher” from the BBC who simply read it in a book somewhere. However, a couple of individuals who are portrayed to be experts on the subject, including a Mr. (maybe its Dr.) Atwater who is a curator with the U.S. Army Ordnance Museum, repeated this bit of nonsense. It is regrettable that someone in a position that would seem to convey knowledge of a particular subject would continue spreading the most unlikely “urban legends” in the context of a supposedly scholarly discourse on the subject of military weapons. For those who don’t want to scroll so far down the list of topics on this website, I’ve reproduced the afore-mentioned “ping discussion” below ("An Enduring Urban Legend"). I think it is self-explanatory.

For the record, be very wary about many of the “facts” and film footage on the History Channel and similar programs. I’ve seen too many clips of SBD dive bombers identified as F4F Wildcats and too many views of Marines supposedly fighting in the early Guadalcanal campaign armed with M1 rifles to give much credence to the “research” that goes into many of the programs. It seems that all a producer wants is vintage stock footage of “troops fighting in the jungle” or “WWII carrier planes” and any footage that appears to fit the criteria is used. I know that many viewers of such programs don’t know and many probably don’t care. That still does not make it right. You’d think that a history program would be more concerned with getting history right than to simply throw out a lot of nonsense intermingled with factual material. Such sloppy scholarship casts doubt on the integrity of all the material presented.

An Enduring “Urban Legend”
Everyone is familiar with "Urban Legends" which are fantasy stories that have been told and re-told so many times that some people believe them to be true. One such story has plagued the M1 Garand rifle since at least the time of its adoption in 1936. The "legend" involves the distinctive "pinging" noise that the empty M1 clip makes when it is ejected from the rifle. When the M1 was adopted, some of its critics claimed that this was a serious defect in the rifle because an enemy could hear the "ping" and would know that the rifle was empty. This "defect" of the M1 was the cause of many barracks "bull sessions" during World War II and a number of new recruits were undoubtedly frightened. Even today, the story is repeated in some books and articles. The "legend" involves U.S. soldiers who were killed because the enemy was alerted that their M1 rifle was empty due to the noise of the ejected clip. While there are multiple variations to the story, they basically involve an American GI with an empty Garand rifle who was killed when the wily Japanese (or in some stories, German) heard the sound of the ejected clip, charged cross the open ground and bayoneted (or shot) the hapless "dogface" while he fumbled with trying to reload his empty Garand. An interesting twist on this "legend" involves U.S. soldiers turning the tables on their devious enemies by dropping empty M1 clips on the ground to simulate the noise of an ejected clip and then mowing the enemy down when they foolishly revealed their positions to the Americans with supposedly empty rifles. A variation of the story stated that members of the U.S. Army First Special Service Force who were armed with M1941 Johnson Light Machine Guns would fire eight rounds from their weapons, throw empty M1 clips on the ground and then use the remaining 12 rounds in their magazines to kill the Germans who were fooled by this bit of clever deception. Such stories were not limited to World War II and variants of the "legend" are attributed to the Korean War when the Red Chinese troops heard the ejected M1 clips hitting the frozen ground and then killing the Americans with unloaded Garands.

Despite this "legend" being around for over six decades, there is not one documented instance where an American soldier was killed because of a noisy ejected M1 clip. Repeat, there is NO official confirmation of such an incident. If one thinks about it, such a scenario is actually quite absurd. Anyone who has been in combat will verify that a battlefield is a noisy and confusing place. To think that an enemy could hear the sound of an ejected clip several hundred (or even several dozen) yards away over the din of explosions and the racket of many weapons being fired is not logical. Even in the case of a close-range firefight, the scenario does not hold water. Even if an enemy could hear the sound of an ejected clip, he really couldn't do much in the brief period that it takes to reload an M1. A GI with a little practice and a lot of incentive can reload a Garand in just a few seconds. Even Carl Lewis couldn't sprint very far before he would be faced with an angry American with a fresh eight-round clip. Also, even if the GI with the empty Garand couldn't reload fast enough, there would be fellow squad members around with loaded BARs, carbines, M1919A4 machine guns, Thompson submachine guns and other weapons who would be only too happy to send the enemy to their fate in the hereafter.

Some British authors who never used the M1 rifle have published this "defect" of the M1 rifle in numerous books and articles. Even some American writers who should know better have repeated the same bit of fantasy. While the M1 rifle was not perfect, the fact that its ejected clip makes a "pinging" noise when it is ejected is not, by any means, a flaw. If anyone has even a single documented instance of an American being killed due to this reason, I would be quite interested in hearing about it. I recall as a kid in the late '50s and early 60's reading "war stories" in the men's magazines of the day while waiting for a haircut at the barber shop. At the time, I had never handled (let alone fired) a M1 rifle and such tales seemed reasonable. However, to anyone with a knowledge of military small arms and combat situations, it should be readily apparent that such stories clearly fall into the "Urban Legend" category. Hopefully, someday, this piece of fantasy will die a natural death. In the meantime, if you hear a variation of the story being repeated, politely ask what documentation they have to support it. You will likely hear that they "read it somewhere" or their brother-in-law's next door neighbor knew somebody in WWII who was killed because of a noisy M1 clip. That ain't documentation!

doctor rizz · 07-14-2008, 05:34 PM

+1 for orlando. The only thing that I can think of that can work is if it is a close-quarters situation involving one on one or small squad action. The enemy would have to know that the ping means that you are empty.

oldjarhead · 07-14-2008, 06:07 PM

Bravo is excited because he has joined the ranks of Garand lovers, he most likely regrets even mentioning the ping of the en bloc. WTF is the issue? Maybe it is just an old wives tale; maybe a few soldiers experienced such a phenomenon...bottom line it's not important.
Welcome Bravo into the fold and encourage his love for the Garand.

Orlando · 07-14-2008, 06:36 PM

Yes, welcome to the ranks Bravo. Sounds like you are hooked and it doesnt get any better

M14man · 07-14-2008, 08:53 PM

Frankly, anyone giving creedence to that 'ping' belief is showing his complete ignorance when it comes to warfare and combat. It's not paintball.

USASA · 07-16-2008, 02:32 PM

Actually, the M1 ping has an advange. How many times, for those that have a bolt action rifle, have you cycled the bolt and pulled the trigger on an empty chamber. And, that was at the range...no stress such as targets shooting back at you.

Now, considered the stress of real combat action on the front line. The M1 lets you know when you're empty while a bolt action doesn't. You need to count your shots with a bolt...but, not with an M1.

twtalbot · 07-17-2008, 10:07 AM

Right, the only case where the "ping" cold really have the disadvantage claimed would be in a one-on-one duel and how often does that happen in a war? When one GI has shot his rifle dry, he has a buddy who's still ready to shoot. A reload doesn't take long, either. Before hard times forced me to part with my M1, I could be reloaded AND back on target in 6 seconds. I concur with USASAs observation that the sound lets YOU know it s time to reload, kind of like the K98s bolt hold open.

07-11-2008, 05:57 PM	#2
Capt'n Mil Coll Military Rifle Collector Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Right behind you. -NRA Member- Posts: 2,296 Images: 12	Its number 2 on my list of fun rifles to shoot. I love hearing that ping when the en bloc clip pops. __________________ Let's light this fuse and see what happens!

07-11-2008, 07:32 PM	#6
nathangdad Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2,476	The Garand was a triumph of both battle rifle design and human engineering for the millions of troops coming later in history who needed (even if they did not realize it) a user friendly/shooter friendly rifle. The human engineering aspect added greatly to our success in WW2. It is one of the greatest inventions in the history of warfare.

07-11-2008, 07:50 PM	#7
Ben Hartley Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Jaffrey, New Hampshire Posts: 146	The Garand was a triumph of both Nathangdad... You're in good company with your assessment of the M1: "It is one of the greatest inventions in the history of warfare." "In my opinion, the M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised." -- LtGen George S. Patton, Jr. FWIW, I certainly concur with both of you. [grin] Ben Hartley

07-14-2008, 03:07 PM	#13
Jersey Jailer Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: SOUTH Jersey Posts: 499	Bruce Canfield ( www.brucecanfield.com ) wrote two articles on the "ping" trick. Canfields quals are in his web site. He de-bunks the ping trick as an urban legend. It's almost believable, but when you think of it, in a mini-mad moment, you're not going to hear it. __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Austrailian Shepherds are like potato chips... You can't have just one Last edited by Jersey Jailer; 07-14-2008 at 03:10 PM.

07-11-2008, 05:31 PM	#1
Bravo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Maine, USA Posts: 1,897	Big Mistake... I made a huge mistake today...I shot a Garand at my local range. I've always loved how they looked, but never felt the need to get one, since I have a Springfield 1903 to fill my 30-06 shooting needs. Once I shot this, I thought...woah, where is the recoil? Why isn't my shoulder yelling at me like it does when I fire my M1903? The recoil is remarkably light, remarkably smooth. I actually hit paper at 200 yards with iron sights and made some sort of group (a large group, but a group nonetheless). Anyway, I'm thinking about getting one eventually. I'm just afraid that my M1903 might lose all of its attention...

07-11-2008, 05:59 PM	#3
Niko911 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 134	Defintly, the weight and it being semi-automatic helps out with the recoil alot

07-11-2008, 06:36 PM	#4
Delta-3 Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NW Ohio but Montana is always home Posts: 94	It usually only takes one shot to get the"fever". The only known cure is to purchase one! __________________ Be polite. Be professional but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

07-13-2008, 08:42 PM	#8
oldjarhead Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Mansfield, MO Posts: 818	Bravo, Welcome to the affliction of addiction to the Garand. It hasn't even begun. Once you get one, you're going to want another...then another. It is a great feeling to hold all that history and feel the slight recoil and hear that tell-tale ping as the en bloc flies. Not to mention the inevitable M1 Thumb...lol...oh yes it will happen eventually.

07-14-2008, 12:25 AM	#9
Niko911 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 134	Bravo i have heard that enemys would wait till they heard the ping of the clip and pop up and start shooting on the military channel so i know that it was true...but solders would throw one of there magazines at the ground so simulate the sound to trick the enemys and reverse it on them

07-14-2008, 01:47 PM	#12
Orlando Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 544	That sounds more believeable

07-14-2008, 03:34 PM	#14
Orlando Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 544	Copied from Canfields site: You’d think the History Channel would know better! - More on the M1 “ping” I recently watched a program on the History Channel about the 10 “greatest” military rifles. After viewing the program, I had conflicting feelings about the content. Overall, I thought it was OK in the context of the typical History Channel military programs which are typically superficial and sometimes a bit lax with the facts. One could quibble with the respective rankings but, overall, it wasn’t as bad as some of their presentations. There was, however, one really egregious exception. Several U.S. military rifles were ranked in the top 10 including the M14, the M1903 and the M1 Garand. The M1 was, as I recall, ranked #4 in the order (“10” was the lowest ranked and “1” was best). The brief thumbnail sketch of the M1 was decent. However, the alleged “defect” of the pinging noise that the M1 makes upon ejection of the empty clip was cited as a major problem with the rifle that (quote)….”cost the lives of large numbers of American soldiers…” (if that’s not an exact quote, it’s close). This stupid myth has been around since the adoption of the Garand rifle in 1936 and is apparently still alive and well today. I did a piece on this website a long time ago debunking the myth as an absurdity and mentioned that there has not been one single documented instance where the “ping” resulted in the death of an American soldier. I would have expected this sort of tripe from some History Channel “researcher” from the BBC who simply read it in a book somewhere. However, a couple of individuals who are portrayed to be experts on the subject, including a Mr. (maybe its Dr.) Atwater who is a curator with the U.S. Army Ordnance Museum, repeated this bit of nonsense. It is regrettable that someone in a position that would seem to convey knowledge of a particular subject would continue spreading the most unlikely “urban legends” in the context of a supposedly scholarly discourse on the subject of military weapons. For those who don’t want to scroll so far down the list of topics on this website, I’ve reproduced the afore-mentioned “ping discussion” below ("An Enduring Urban Legend"). I think it is self-explanatory. For the record, be very wary about many of the “facts” and film footage on the History Channel and similar programs. I’ve seen too many clips of SBD dive bombers identified as F4F Wildcats and too many views of Marines supposedly fighting in the early Guadalcanal campaign armed with M1 rifles to give much credence to the “research” that goes into many of the programs. It seems that all a producer wants is vintage stock footage of “troops fighting in the jungle” or “WWII carrier planes” and any footage that appears to fit the criteria is used. I know that many viewers of such programs don’t know and many probably don’t care. That still does not make it right. You’d think that a history program would be more concerned with getting history right than to simply throw out a lot of nonsense intermingled with factual material. Such sloppy scholarship casts doubt on the integrity of all the material presented. An Enduring “Urban Legend” Everyone is familiar with "Urban Legends" which are fantasy stories that have been told and re-told so many times that some people believe them to be true. One such story has plagued the M1 Garand rifle since at least the time of its adoption in 1936. The "legend" involves the distinctive "pinging" noise that the empty M1 clip makes when it is ejected from the rifle. When the M1 was adopted, some of its critics claimed that this was a serious defect in the rifle because an enemy could hear the "ping" and would know that the rifle was empty. This "defect" of the M1 was the cause of many barracks "bull sessions" during World War II and a number of new recruits were undoubtedly frightened. Even today, the story is repeated in some books and articles. The "legend" involves U.S. soldiers who were killed because the enemy was alerted that their M1 rifle was empty due to the noise of the ejected clip. While there are multiple variations to the story, they basically involve an American GI with an empty Garand rifle who was killed when the wily Japanese (or in some stories, German) heard the sound of the ejected clip, charged cross the open ground and bayoneted (or shot) the hapless "dogface" while he fumbled with trying to reload his empty Garand. An interesting twist on this "legend" involves U.S. soldiers turning the tables on their devious enemies by dropping empty M1 clips on the ground to simulate the noise of an ejected clip and then mowing the enemy down when they foolishly revealed their positions to the Americans with supposedly empty rifles. A variation of the story stated that members of the U.S. Army First Special Service Force who were armed with M1941 Johnson Light Machine Guns would fire eight rounds from their weapons, throw empty M1 clips on the ground and then use the remaining 12 rounds in their magazines to kill the Germans who were fooled by this bit of clever deception. Such stories were not limited to World War II and variants of the "legend" are attributed to the Korean War when the Red Chinese troops heard the ejected M1 clips hitting the frozen ground and then killing the Americans with unloaded Garands. Despite this "legend" being around for over six decades, there is not one documented instance where an American soldier was killed because of a noisy ejected M1 clip. Repeat, there is NO official confirmation of such an incident. If one thinks about it, such a scenario is actually quite absurd. Anyone who has been in combat will verify that a battlefield is a noisy and confusing place. To think that an enemy could hear the sound of an ejected clip several hundred (or even several dozen) yards away over the din of explosions and the racket of many weapons being fired is not logical. Even in the case of a close-range firefight, the scenario does not hold water. Even if an enemy could hear the sound of an ejected clip, he really couldn't do much in the brief period that it takes to reload an M1. A GI with a little practice and a lot of incentive can reload a Garand in just a few seconds. Even Carl Lewis couldn't sprint very far before he would be faced with an angry American with a fresh eight-round clip. Also, even if the GI with the empty Garand couldn't reload fast enough, there would be fellow squad members around with loaded BARs, carbines, M1919A4 machine guns, Thompson submachine guns and other weapons who would be only too happy to send the enemy to their fate in the hereafter. Some British authors who never used the M1 rifle have published this "defect" of the M1 rifle in numerous books and articles. Even some American writers who should know better have repeated the same bit of fantasy. While the M1 rifle was not perfect, the fact that its ejected clip makes a "pinging" noise when it is ejected is not, by any means, a flaw. If anyone has even a single documented instance of an American being killed due to this reason, I would be quite interested in hearing about it. I recall as a kid in the late '50s and early 60's reading "war stories" in the men's magazines of the day while waiting for a haircut at the barber shop. At the time, I had never handled (let alone fired) a M1 rifle and such tales seemed reasonable. However, to anyone with a knowledge of military small arms and combat situations, it should be readily apparent that such stories clearly fall into the "Urban Legend" category. Hopefully, someday, this piece of fantasy will die a natural death. In the meantime, if you hear a variation of the story being repeated, politely ask what documentation they have to support it. You will likely hear that they "read it somewhere" or their brother-in-law's next door neighbor knew somebody in WWII who was killed because of a noisy M1 clip. That ain't documentation!

07-14-2008, 05:34 PM	#15
doctor rizz Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 88	+1 for orlando. The only thing that I can think of that can work is if it is a close-quarters situation involving one on one or small squad action. The enemy would have to know that the ping means that you are empty.

07-14-2008, 06:07 PM	#16
oldjarhead Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Mansfield, MO Posts: 818	Bravo is excited because he has joined the ranks of Garand lovers, he most likely regrets even mentioning the ping of the en bloc. WTF is the issue? Maybe it is just an old wives tale; maybe a few soldiers experienced such a phenomenon...bottom line it's not important. Welcome Bravo into the fold and encourage his love for the Garand.

07-14-2008, 06:36 PM	#17
Orlando Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 544	Yes, welcome to the ranks Bravo. Sounds like you are hooked and it doesnt get any better

07-14-2008, 08:53 PM	#18
M14man Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: FLA Posts: 437 Images: 10	Frankly, anyone giving creedence to that 'ping' belief is showing his complete ignorance when it comes to warfare and combat. It's not paintball.

07-16-2008, 02:32 PM	#19
USASA Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Tri-Cities, Washington Posts: 11	Actually, the M1 ping has an advange. How many times, for those that have a bolt action rifle, have you cycled the bolt and pulled the trigger on an empty chamber. And, that was at the range...no stress such as targets shooting back at you. Now, considered the stress of real combat action on the front line. The M1 lets you know when you're empty while a bolt action doesn't. You need to count your shots with a bolt...but, not with an M1.

07-17-2008, 10:07 AM	#20
twtalbot Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 53	Right, the only case where the "ping" cold really have the disadvantage claimed would be in a one-on-one duel and how often does that happen in a war? When one GI has shot his rifle dry, he has a buddy who's still ready to shoot. A reload doesn't take long, either. Before hard times forced me to part with my M1, I could be reloaded AND back on target in 6 seconds. I concur with USASAs observation that the sound lets YOU know it s time to reload, kind of like the K98s bolt hold open.