ammo for M1A

JIMM · 10-07-2003, 04:49 PM

I was at the range the other day and some guy was breaking in his new match grade stainless M1A with Remington commercial 165 grain bullets, not knowing for sure if he was using the wrong ammo I told him. that he better check with someone with more knowledge than myself before he hurts the op rod. My thinking was that his ammo was too hot. Who was right.

PAPA G · 10-07-2003, 05:27 PM

now having said that. GI ammo has never touched my M1a's mag lip's. bought mine way back in the mid-70's. and they specified even then, GI ammo. however back then GI ammo was hard to find and expensive the GCA of 1968 made it illegal to direct order ammo and components, had to go through a dealer. so with the help of a friend i reloaded for it using Winny cases, and Nosler 168gr. HPBT's. it worked great. so if the guy in question is staying with in the normal operating pressure for the M14?M1a he'll be ok.:nod:

sniper762 · 08-13-2004, 09:42 PM

I was issued military ammo for shooting matches in my M1A for several years. Thousands of M118 (173 grain FMJ) and M852 (168gr. HPBT match) shot through it. Never had problems, nor have I heard of any from any of my fellow shooters.

uvson · 08-14-2004, 02:58 AM

hello
me too, I reload 168 gr Lapua, perfect shoot 100 meters to 800 meters.
175 gr is better after 300 meters, with the wind...
If you shoot around 200 yards, shoot with with 150 gr.
More you shoot heavy, more you'll keep your gun a long time (parts!)

sorry for my english!

Gyrene · 08-23-2004, 01:49 AM

Most competition shooters use their own reloads (you would have a difficult time winning if you do not). Most around here use 168 grain Sierra Match King HPBT, with their own choice of powder (many use IMR 4895) I do not know the load data, and they try to keep a supply of Lake City 7.62 x 51mm brass, on hand to reload.

The commercial "Hunting" ammo is more a problem with the M1 Garand, than with the M1A/M14, though it is better to stay below a 180 grain bullet for long term use. The powder burn rate and peak pressure are more serious factors than the bullet weight as long as you don't exceed 180 grain bullet weights.

`

Indy · 09-03-2004, 08:53 PM

I have two M1As and have shot commercial ammo in both of them. It's safe if one stays in the 147 to 173 grain projectile weight. The pressure is the most important. 50,000 is the max pressure to eliminate extra stress on the op rod. Currently I have some British ammo that works really well. Of course, most of the target work is with reloads. Caution is very important with powder selection in any gas gun. It would be a good thing to read Glen Zeidiker's article on reloading for the M1A. He will scare most away from reloading for a while.
Military brass is a lot stronger than commercial brass especially at the base. There have been times where the head was actually pulled off commercial brass. I reload Lake City and haven't had any trouble. One can buy some military brass from GI Brass, Jeff Bartlett. He is at GIBrass.com or he has an ad in Shotgun News. Master PO on the internet has a listing of loads for all the military cartridges. I will get the web address and post it. In the Hornady reloading manual they have listed loads for the M1 and M1A separate from the 308 and 30-06. The loads seem to be about 10% lighter.
Indy

Ricky · 09-06-2004, 09:44 AM

Hi, good reload for an M1A with 168 grains bullet and IMR 4895 Powder , 200 yds range ?
Thanks Ric

Gyrene · 09-06-2004, 09:57 AM

PapaG - I believe that most recent M1A's have been made with a "Tight .308 Chamber", as most of the ones that have come to our range lately have difficulty cycling reloads, unless the reloads have been resized with 'Small Base Dies". Most of the time they will not load from the magazine as the base is fractionally too large (and the friction of the cartridge cases in contact with the round below it and the magazine lips slows the bolt down) which is just enough to stop the bolt from rotating into battery. New 7.62 x 51mm (NATO) ammo seems to work fine, but if it has been fired in a 7.62 x 51mm chamber, it needs resizing with small base dies.

Most of the M1A's do not have all USGI parts (except for the receiver and barrel which are not, of course) and usually have a failure, with bolt parts flying out. The fix, is to have USGI bolt, firing pin, ejector, and extractor installed (they should have the USGI trigger group, too). Except for the "Super Match" M1A, I have not seen any M1A, as delivered from the factory, that has not had the bolt problems, in the first 10 to 500 rounds, over the past 4 years, and I see them every day at the range where I work.

`

Indy · 09-18-2004, 11:01 AM

Sorry I was so slow, but here is the site describing M1A reloading. www.zediker.com/downloads/m14.html/
Indy

Indy · 09-18-2004, 11:04 AM

Access to the website doesn't seem to be direct, but if you type in the address on the command line it works.
Indy

Gyrene · 09-19-2004, 12:40 AM

I said before that I had not seen any M1A from the factory that didn't have problems, except for the "M1A Super Match", in the past 2 to 3 years. Well, a friend of mine recently got an M1A that had been at a gun store for about 5 years, he brought it to the range a week ago. So far he has had absolutely no problems with it, except for needing the reloads resized with small base dies. The chamber is at exactly the minimum size SAMMI Spec.

As of today, he has fired 650 rounds through it, and we are watching it closely, to see if it will have problems. It does have a USGI Bolt, with all USGI parts (firing pin, ejector, extractor, and springs), and a USGI Trigger Group. I don't think he will have problems, because of the USGI parts. This M1A holds a 5 shot .628 inch group off the sandbags, at 100 yards. What I would expect a rifle that costs $1,500.00 to shoot.

A Springfield Armory (Commercial) M1 Garand (receiver is an Australian investment casting) was brought to the range day before yesterday. It had absolutely no lube on it, anywhere, and he called Springfield to check on lubricating it, he was told, "DO NOT DISASSEMBLE IT, OR YOU WILL CHANGE THE ZERO!" It would not cycle, with Lake City 69 USGI Ammo, and there was ABSOLUTELY NO VISIBLE LUBE ANYWHERE ON THE RIFLE. I pointed out, that since it is a machine, it needs lube, he decided that lube was necessary.

We disassembled it and put USGI gun grease where it should be, including on the dry operating rod spring, on the bottom of the barrel where the operating rod rubs, and especially on the grooves where the bolt locking lugs ride, the operating rod tab, as well as the bolt locking lugs, and the point of the hammer (where it engages the bolt). It functions flawlessly now, and held a 5 shot 4 inch group at 100 yards (not a good group, for this rifle, but the owner has no experience with M1 Garands), I expect him to get better with the rifle, for now he is still a pistol shooter! I fired a 5 shot 1 inch group with it, at 100 yards off sand bags, after we had lubed it, more like it should, for a rifle that cost almost $1,300.00.

`

7mmag6 · 10-05-2004, 12:31 AM

Has any one tried talon re-loads

Gyrene · 10-05-2004, 02:34 AM

7mmag6 - They seem to be fine. They use demilled components. They buy the loaded ammo, pull the bullets, remove the powder, then reassemble it as Talon. There should be no difference, or at the very least only slight difference from USGI ammo.

PAPA G · 10-05-2004, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Navy

Geez Gyrene, now you have me very nervous. Do I have a ticking time bomb here or what? I have only put about 100 rounds through my SA M1A which I bought new out of the box two years ago. Should I expect a failure to be imminent? Is there any preventive maintenance or the tooling will keep this from occurring, (outside of the proper lubrication which you have spoken of so extensively)?

well for what its worth; shoot it to your hearts content till something breaks.

"if'n it ain't broke, don't fix it"

Gyrene · 10-05-2004, 01:55 PM

Old Navy - Shoot it and enjoy the good times you are going to have with it! Lube it clean it, and if failures occur, replace any bolt parts with USGI, and trigger group with USGI. You should have a long and happy relationship with it.

Not to worry, when the failures occur, they are not catastrophic. Papa G suggested shoot it until something breaks. If nothing breaks, you are ahead of the game. The failures I have talked about, the bolt coming apart is startling, but if you are wearing eye protection (YOU SHOULD NEVER FIRE A RIFLE OR PISTOL WITHOUT EYE PROTECTION) the flying parts are not going to do anything. Most of them end up within the rifle itself, with the extractor being the one that flies out (usually forward). The other failures are the magazine dropping out of the rifle (no problem), the trigger group falling down out of the rifle (again, no problem), and failure to feed (should I repeat?). The lack of lubrication is a benign problem, which is easily fixed.

I bring up these issues, not to scare anyone, just bringing reality to the forefront. Most of the ones I have seen come to our range in the past 3 to 4 years have at least one if not all of the problems I have talked about. You should know how to deal with the problems when they occur. Boxing it up and shipping it back to Springfield Armory Commercial, is one way to deal with it, but your shooting time is stopped until they fix and return it. If you happen upon one of the problems, then you can say, "That is what he was talking about." and get on with fixing it, and return to shooting.

Papa G - Right on!

`

10-07-2003, 04:49 PM	#1
JIMM Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: cincinnati ohio Posts: 48	ammo for M1A I was at the range the other day and some guy was breaking in his new match grade stainless M1A with Remington commercial 165 grain bullets, not knowing for sure if he was using the wrong ammo I told him. that he better check with someone with more knowledge than myself before he hurts the op rod. My thinking was that his ammo was too hot. Who was right.

10-07-2003, 05:27 PM	#2
PAPA G Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somerset, kentucky Posts: 12	not using GI ammo will void his warranty..... now having said that. GI ammo has never touched my M1a's mag lip's. bought mine way back in the mid-70's. and they specified even then, GI ammo. however back then GI ammo was hard to find and expensive the GCA of 1968 made it illegal to direct order ammo and components, had to go through a dealer. so with the help of a friend i reloaded for it using Winny cases, and Nosler 168gr. HPBT's. it worked great. so if the guy in question is staying with in the normal operating pressure for the M14?M1a he'll be ok.:nod:

09-19-2004, 12:40 AM	#11
Gyrene Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CA Posts: 886	I said before that I had not seen any M1A from the factory that didn't have problems, except for the "M1A Super Match", in the past 2 to 3 years. Well, a friend of mine recently got an M1A that had been at a gun store for about 5 years, he brought it to the range a week ago. So far he has had absolutely no problems with it, except for needing the reloads resized with small base dies. The chamber is at exactly the minimum size SAMMI Spec. As of today, he has fired 650 rounds through it, and we are watching it closely, to see if it will have problems. It does have a USGI Bolt, with all USGI parts (firing pin, ejector, extractor, and springs), and a USGI Trigger Group. I don't think he will have problems, because of the USGI parts. This M1A holds a 5 shot .628 inch group off the sandbags, at 100 yards. What I would expect a rifle that costs $1,500.00 to shoot. A Springfield Armory (Commercial) M1 Garand (receiver is an Australian investment casting) was brought to the range day before yesterday. It had absolutely no lube on it, anywhere, and he called Springfield to check on lubricating it, he was told, "DO NOT DISASSEMBLE IT, OR YOU WILL CHANGE THE ZERO!" It would not cycle, with Lake City 69 USGI Ammo, and there was ABSOLUTELY NO VISIBLE LUBE ANYWHERE ON THE RIFLE. I pointed out, that since it is a machine, it needs lube, he decided that lube was necessary. We disassembled it and put USGI gun grease where it should be, including on the dry operating rod spring, on the bottom of the barrel where the operating rod rubs, and especially on the grooves where the bolt locking lugs ride, the operating rod tab, as well as the bolt locking lugs, and the point of the hammer (where it engages the bolt). It functions flawlessly now, and held a 5 shot 4 inch group at 100 yards (not a good group, for this rifle, but the owner has no experience with M1 Garands), I expect him to get better with the rifle, for now he is still a pistol shooter! I fired a 5 shot 1 inch group with it, at 100 yards off sand bags, after we had lubed it, more like it should, for a rifle that cost almost $1,300.00. ` Last edited by Gyrene; 09-19-2004 at 12:44 AM.

10-05-2004, 12:31 AM	#12
7mmag6 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 337 Images: 1	Has any one tried talon re-loads __________________ This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine

08-13-2004, 09:42 PM	#3
sniper762 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: NorthCarolina Posts: 118	I was issued military ammo for shooting matches in my M1A for several years. Thousands of M118 (173 grain FMJ) and M852 (168gr. HPBT match) shot through it. Never had problems, nor have I heard of any from any of my fellow shooters.

08-14-2004, 02:58 AM	#4
uvson Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 8	hello me too, I reload 168 gr Lapua, perfect shoot 100 meters to 800 meters. 175 gr is better after 300 meters, with the wind... If you shoot around 200 yards, shoot with with 150 gr. More you shoot heavy, more you'll keep your gun a long time (parts!) sorry for my english!

08-23-2004, 01:49 AM	#5
Gyrene Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CA Posts: 886	Most competition shooters use their own reloads (you would have a difficult time winning if you do not). Most around here use 168 grain Sierra Match King HPBT, with their own choice of powder (many use IMR 4895) I do not know the load data, and they try to keep a supply of Lake City 7.62 x 51mm brass, on hand to reload. The commercial "Hunting" ammo is more a problem with the M1 Garand, than with the M1A/M14, though it is better to stay below a 180 grain bullet for long term use. The powder burn rate and peak pressure are more serious factors than the bullet weight as long as you don't exceed 180 grain bullet weights. `

09-03-2004, 08:53 PM	#6
Indy Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 331	I have two M1As and have shot commercial ammo in both of them. It's safe if one stays in the 147 to 173 grain projectile weight. The pressure is the most important. 50,000 is the max pressure to eliminate extra stress on the op rod. Currently I have some British ammo that works really well. Of course, most of the target work is with reloads. Caution is very important with powder selection in any gas gun. It would be a good thing to read Glen Zeidiker's article on reloading for the M1A. He will scare most away from reloading for a while. Military brass is a lot stronger than commercial brass especially at the base. There have been times where the head was actually pulled off commercial brass. I reload Lake City and haven't had any trouble. One can buy some military brass from GI Brass, Jeff Bartlett. He is at GIBrass.com or he has an ad in Shotgun News. Master PO on the internet has a listing of loads for all the military cartridges. I will get the web address and post it. In the Hornady reloading manual they have listed loads for the M1 and M1A separate from the 308 and 30-06. The loads seem to be about 10% lighter. Indy

09-06-2004, 09:44 AM	#7
Ricky Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 24	Hi, good reload for an M1A with 168 grains bullet and IMR 4895 Powder , 200 yds range ? Thanks Ric

09-06-2004, 09:57 AM	#8
Gyrene Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CA Posts: 886	PapaG - I believe that most recent M1A's have been made with a "Tight .308 Chamber", as most of the ones that have come to our range lately have difficulty cycling reloads, unless the reloads have been resized with 'Small Base Dies". Most of the time they will not load from the magazine as the base is fractionally too large (and the friction of the cartridge cases in contact with the round below it and the magazine lips slows the bolt down) which is just enough to stop the bolt from rotating into battery. New 7.62 x 51mm (NATO) ammo seems to work fine, but if it has been fired in a 7.62 x 51mm chamber, it needs resizing with small base dies. Most of the M1A's do not have all USGI parts (except for the receiver and barrel which are not, of course) and usually have a failure, with bolt parts flying out. The fix, is to have USGI bolt, firing pin, ejector, and extractor installed (they should have the USGI trigger group, too). Except for the "Super Match" M1A, I have not seen any M1A, as delivered from the factory, that has not had the bolt problems, in the first 10 to 500 rounds, over the past 4 years, and I see them every day at the range where I work. `

09-18-2004, 11:01 AM	#9
Indy Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 331	Sorry I was so slow, but here is the site describing M1A reloading. www.zediker.com/downloads/m14.html/ Indy

09-18-2004, 11:04 AM	#10
Indy Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 331	Access to the website doesn't seem to be direct, but if you type in the address on the command line it works. Indy

10-05-2004, 02:34 AM	#13
Gyrene Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CA Posts: 886	7mmag6 - They seem to be fine. They use demilled components. They buy the loaded ammo, pull the bullets, remove the powder, then reassemble it as Talon. There should be no difference, or at the very least only slight difference from USGI ammo.

10-05-2004, 01:55 PM	#15
Gyrene Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CA Posts: 886	Old Navy - Shoot it and enjoy the good times you are going to have with it! Lube it clean it, and if failures occur, replace any bolt parts with USGI, and trigger group with USGI. You should have a long and happy relationship with it. Not to worry, when the failures occur, they are not catastrophic. Papa G suggested shoot it until something breaks. If nothing breaks, you are ahead of the game. The failures I have talked about, the bolt coming apart is startling, but if you are wearing eye protection (YOU SHOULD NEVER FIRE A RIFLE OR PISTOL WITHOUT EYE PROTECTION) the flying parts are not going to do anything. Most of them end up within the rifle itself, with the extractor being the one that flies out (usually forward). The other failures are the magazine dropping out of the rifle (no problem), the trigger group falling down out of the rifle (again, no problem), and failure to feed (should I repeat?). The lack of lubrication is a benign problem, which is easily fixed. I bring up these issues, not to scare anyone, just bringing reality to the forefront. Most of the ones I have seen come to our range in the past 3 to 4 years have at least one if not all of the problems I have talked about. You should know how to deal with the problems when they occur. Boxing it up and shipping it back to Springfield Armory Commercial, is one way to deal with it, but your shooting time is stopped until they fix and return it. If you happen upon one of the problems, then you can say, "That is what he was talking about." and get on with fixing it, and return to shooting. Papa G - Right on! `