how much? - Page 2

Gyrene · 05-22-2006, 05:55 PM

.308_Win - The main problems the customers have with the M1A's are from improper lubing, but the non-USGI parts, and commercial ammo are still a problem sometimes. As I had stated before, the bolt and the receiver seem to be lubed pretty well from the factory, but the Operating Rod, Operating Rod Guide, Operating Rod Spring, Operating Rod Spring Guide all seem to be shipped DRY (DRY AS A BONE). The bottom of the barrel just in front of the receiver, and the top of the Operating Rod, where it touches the barrel, just in front of the receiver, and where the bolt locking lug rides in the Operating Rod, absolutely have to be lubed! These parts all need grease, because they are parts that move or have parts moving on or with them.

The typical non-lubed M1A will have the following problem(s):

The magazine will fall out when you fire.

The Trigger Group will fall out when you fire.

The Magazine and Trigger Group will fall out when you fire.

WHY?
Well, what generally stops those from happening, is to lube the Operating Rod, Operating Rod Guide, Operating Rod Spring, and Operating Rod Spring Guide. The Operating Rod Spring Guide is also what is used to lock the front of the magazine into the M1A, and unless it has been lubed, it will move and allow the magazine to fall out.

The Trigger Group falling out is still a mystery to me, although when you properly lube the M1A, that sometimes seems to correct the problem (somehow it is directly related). If it persists, then you have to install USGI parts!

I used to carry a spare USGI Trigger Group with me to the range to show the customers their problem can be corrected, but the big boss has now forbidden us to install any parts on a malfunctioning rifle of any kind (the liability issues that may arise in a litiguous society, is why).

One of our customers recently received his replacement Springfield Armory (Commercial) Loaded M1A. His original one, which he had for the better part of a year blew up, breaking the receiver, blowing the magazine apart, breaking the walnut stock, and damaging the bolt. The box of ammo which he was using was a common commercial factory load, and since I have not seen that sort of problem or heard of it happening with any factory ammo, I will not say which one. I filled out a standard accident report for the range, and gave him a copy, which he sent with his damaged M1A to Springfield Armory, and a month and a half later they sent him a new M1A. His injuries consisted of a bruised right hand, some stock splinters in his left arm, and a woefully injured pride.

I personally believe that it fired out of battery, in part due to the softer commercial primer, and the floating firing pin, though the receiver bridge and firing pin tang, as well as the hammer point and bolt recess should easily prevent that possibility, as it was designed to prevent firing before the bolt lugs are adequately locked. I suspect a soft high primer was the reason, it happened. The Springfield people may know something else, and that may be why it was replaced so quickly, with no discussion.

`

SGT-MILLER · 05-31-2006, 10:46 PM

Do these problems you listed also apply to the new M1A Scout and SOCOM 16 variations? I'm curious, because I'm looking into getting one of those variants of the M1A rifles.

Gyrene · 06-01-2006, 01:34 AM

SGT-MILLER - THANKS AGAIN, for your service!

All of the Springfield Armory (Geneseo, IL) M1A rifles are the same, some with a longer barrel and some with a shorter barrel. All of the parts come out of the same parts bins except for the barrels and the related short barrel parts. There is only a scope mount difference between the Bush M1A Rifle and the Scout M1A Rifle! The SOCOM is shorter yet! I only differentiate between NOISE GENERATORS (the short barreled ones) and standard length M1A rifles. Almost half of the powder burns outside the muzzle of the short barreled M1A's creating noise that WILL DAMAGE YOUR HEARING (like me as you age, it becomes harder and harder to hear (when it is the better half talking, it can be a good thing but only sometimes))!

The 7.62 x 51mm (and the .308) cartridge was designed to be fired out of a 20 to 24 inch barrel, with a minimum flash visible. If you are shooting it out of a barrel less than 20 inches, you lose velocity, create a larger flash, and generate noise that can be unbearable, especially if you are using a muzzle brake (I haven't seen one that doesn't use a muzzle brake!).

`

minuteman1970 · 06-03-2006, 03:43 PM

I'm pretty happy with my Springfield M1A NM. Cost me around $1200 used.

Ilocano1963 · 06-05-2006, 01:15 AM

I do not know about those amonst you who are or were dissatisfied with their M1A's but I myelf am very much satisfied with what I have. I own a NM M1A from Springfield Armory and also an M21 Tactical. They both shoot very well, none of the problems you have mentioned have I encountred at this point in time and even when I was in the service back home where we were issued M14's. This was the reason why I bought an M1A, the closest I couold get to the past. So, if there were problems with your rifles, they might have been from a different manufacturer or just a matter of poor maintenance.

Gyrene · 06-08-2006, 02:20 PM

minuteman1970 and Ilocano1963 - The rifles you have are two of the best for the money that Springfield Armory (Commercial), Geneseo, IL can produce.

My M1A Super Match is a good one, too. It can shoot better than all of the best shooters, though they don't always shoot 500/500 (50 X out of 50 X), the rifles can do it. It is a matter of reading the wind and aiming correctly, with the correct ammo for the specific rifle.

Ilocano1963 - They were range customers' M1A rifles NEW from Springfield Armory (Commercial), Geneseo, IL, if there were any maintenance problems, it was Springfield Armory (Commercial), Geneseo, IL that was at fault. In fact they were at fault, because they advise you in their Owners Manual, not to disassemble the M1A, as it will void your warranty. Well, I have been trying to tell you, Springfield Armory (Commercial), Geneseo, IL does not properly lube the M1A, and to do so, it is necessary for you to disassemble the M1A to properly lube it!

`

Otter · 06-08-2006, 06:51 PM

I had a pre-ban M1A and a state issued M14, both worked flawlessly all the time. My biggest regret was selling the M1A to buy a car.

Rex Kramer · 06-18-2006, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGT-MILLER

Do these problems you listed also apply to the new M1A Scout and SOCOM 16 variations?
I'm curious, because I'm looking into getting one of those variants of the M1A rifles.

Of the two you mentioned I suggest the SCOUT 18.
You can install a neutered GI flash suppressor or better still, install a GLFS and DC Vortex flash suppressor from Smith Enterprise, Inc.

You have no such options with the SOCOM 16 - you must use the factory muzzle brake. It is loud and creates a nice fireball - it also works as advertised.

SAI, has had a few QC issues, but they are not as wide spread as the internet would lead one to believe.
You want to inspect, clean and grease (MD Labs XF-7) the rifle before you go to the range.
GI parts are a good thing, a SADLAK NM op rod spring guide with a Tubb's CS op rod spring smoothes the action out nicely and GI magazines are a must.

HTH ~

BTW, you can get an M14 with a forged receiver.
The Polytech M-14 / S and the Norinco M14 Sporter.
ChiCom receivers are as close as you can get to USGI ... even closer than LRB.

WAYNEGJR · 02-29-2008, 12:43 PM

hI i WAS OFFERED A M14 OPERATING ROD REWELD, ARE THESE WORTH USING JUST FOR SAVING A FEW BUCKS? HOW MUCH IS A GOOD PRICE TO PAY?

wunhunglo · 02-29-2008, 02:00 PM

In the bad old days when us Brits were allowed self-loading rifles, I had a love affair with a TRW M14, probably my most accurate service type rifle I have ever had. I currently own a Fulton's Peerless M14 made specifically to comply with the British Firearms laws..........it is one of the most accurate rifles I have owned and can hold it's own against target rifles.........I'm a very happy Fulton customer.

Rex Kramer · 02-29-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WAYNEGJR

hI i WAS OFFERED A M14 OPERATING ROD REWELD, ARE THESE WORTH USING JUST FOR SAVING A FEW BUCKS? HOW MUCH IS A GOOD PRICE TO PAY?

Avoid any M14 op rod that has been cut and re-welded. They are unsafe.
Brand new forged op rods will soon be available from SEI ...

Also, Gyrene was on a rant back in 2006... don't let his words steer you away from the M14 platform.

.

madcratebuilder · 03-01-2008, 09:09 AM

Quote:

As was stated, the disassembly of a Springfield Armory (Commercial) M1A can void the Warranty

Not true. SA has the best warranty you can get, "lifetime" You don't need to be the original owner or have a receipt. I'm the second owner of a 30 year old M1A, SA paid shipping back and forth for warranty bolt replacement (recall)
+1 on lots of grease, NO OIL is used for lube.

Quote:

The Springfield Armory (commercial), Geneseo, Illinois receivers are made by Lithgow, in Australia, and/or by Imbel in Brazil, because USA made parts would be too expensive. I am not sure who makes the balance of the Springfield Armory (commercial), Geneseo, Illinois M1A parts, however it is very likely are not made in the USA.

SA receivers are cast in Canada and machined in the USA. Some small parts come from WMI in Taiwan.

Quote:

removing the Barrel from the receiver,removing the Gas block from the Barrel, Etc. This WILL void the warranty!

Not necessarily, I returned my rifle for warranty work with a unitized gas cylinder and reamed flash suppressor and a note saying to please keep those parts with the rifle. They did, and sent back a note commenting on the work. If you grind on any part of the trigger they well not work on your rifle till you replace it with a non-modified unit(unless they did the work) They do a NM trigger for $35, pretty hard to beat, it has the SA warranty.

Quote:

Removing the trigger Group, pulling the Action, Bolt, and gas piston out for cleaning the Major Components (field stripping)Will Not void the warranty !

100% correct.

mtm1 · 03-27-2008, 08:39 AM

Just thought I'd throw a little info up on current Norcs. Don't know anything about polytechs or older Norincos but the newer(last few years) ones are excellent guns. I"m shooting Lake City Match ammo. My gun will keep 5 rds. under 2" at 100 yds. with the open sights every time. Sometimes a fair bit tighter. Thats about as good as I can shoot open sights. Never had a failure of any kind with it. Last fall I shot beside a guy with a very nice looking Springfeild that he payed $1800 for. They are not legal to take into the bush here(restricted). His was scoped and shooting about the same as my Norc. Absolutely no slam intended but for $399 we're pretty lucky up here.

rogertc1 · 04-10-2008, 12:35 PM

Just last week I bought a new walnut Springfield arms for $1700 with state tax. Fulton Arms has a 6 month or longer wait soo if you want it prior to the election it is your choice. Also it will cost you more.
ROG

06-08-2006, 06:51 PM	#27
Otter Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vermont Posts: 955 Images: 6	I had a pre-ban M1A and a state issued M14, both worked flawlessly all the time. My biggest regret was selling the M1A to buy a car. __________________ Life is too important to be taken seriously.

02-29-2008, 12:43 PM	#29
WAYNEGJR Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1	M14 OPERATING ROD REWELD? hI i WAS OFFERED A M14 OPERATING ROD REWELD, ARE THESE WORTH USING JUST FOR SAVING A FEW BUCKS? HOW MUCH IS A GOOD PRICE TO PAY?

03-27-2008, 08:39 AM	#33
mtm1 Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Southern B.C. Posts: 85	M14s Just thought I'd throw a little info up on current Norcs. Don't know anything about polytechs or older Norincos but the newer(last few years) ones are excellent guns. I"m shooting Lake City Match ammo. My gun will keep 5 rds. under 2" at 100 yds. with the open sights every time. Sometimes a fair bit tighter. Thats about as good as I can shoot open sights. Never had a failure of any kind with it. Last fall I shot beside a guy with a very nice looking Springfeild that he payed $1800 for. They are not legal to take into the bush here(restricted). His was scoped and shooting about the same as my Norc. Absolutely no slam intended but for $399 we're pretty lucky up here.

04-10-2008, 12:35 PM	#34
rogertc1 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 7	Just last week I bought a new walnut Springfield arms for $1700 with state tax. Fulton Arms has a 6 month or longer wait soo if you want it prior to the election it is your choice. Also it will cost you more. ROG Last edited by rogertc1; 04-10-2008 at 12:38 PM. Reason: spelling

05-22-2006, 05:55 PM	#21
Gyrene Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CA Posts: 886	.308_Win - The main problems the customers have with the M1A's are from improper lubing, but the non-USGI parts, and commercial ammo are still a problem sometimes. As I had stated before, the bolt and the receiver seem to be lubed pretty well from the factory, but the Operating Rod, Operating Rod Guide, Operating Rod Spring, Operating Rod Spring Guide all seem to be shipped DRY (DRY AS A BONE). The bottom of the barrel just in front of the receiver, and the top of the Operating Rod, where it touches the barrel, just in front of the receiver, and where the bolt locking lug rides in the Operating Rod, absolutely have to be lubed! These parts all need grease, because they are parts that move or have parts moving on or with them. The typical non-lubed M1A will have the following problem(s): The magazine will fall out when you fire. The Trigger Group will fall out when you fire. The Magazine and Trigger Group will fall out when you fire. WHY? Well, what generally stops those from happening, is to lube the Operating Rod, Operating Rod Guide, Operating Rod Spring, and Operating Rod Spring Guide. The Operating Rod Spring Guide is also what is used to lock the front of the magazine into the M1A, and unless it has been lubed, it will move and allow the magazine to fall out. The Trigger Group falling out is still a mystery to me, although when you properly lube the M1A, that sometimes seems to correct the problem (somehow it is directly related). If it persists, then you have to install USGI parts! I used to carry a spare USGI Trigger Group with me to the range to show the customers their problem can be corrected, but the big boss has now forbidden us to install any parts on a malfunctioning rifle of any kind (the liability issues that may arise in a litiguous society, is why). One of our customers recently received his replacement Springfield Armory (Commercial) Loaded M1A. His original one, which he had for the better part of a year blew up, breaking the receiver, blowing the magazine apart, breaking the walnut stock, and damaging the bolt. The box of ammo which he was using was a common commercial factory load, and since I have not seen that sort of problem or heard of it happening with any factory ammo, I will not say which one. I filled out a standard accident report for the range, and gave him a copy, which he sent with his damaged M1A to Springfield Armory, and a month and a half later they sent him a new M1A. His injuries consisted of a bruised right hand, some stock splinters in his left arm, and a woefully injured pride. I personally believe that it fired out of battery, in part due to the softer commercial primer, and the floating firing pin, though the receiver bridge and firing pin tang, as well as the hammer point and bolt recess should easily prevent that possibility, as it was designed to prevent firing before the bolt lugs are adequately locked. I suspect a soft high primer was the reason, it happened. The Springfield people may know something else, and that may be why it was replaced so quickly, with no discussion. `

05-31-2006, 10:46 PM	#22
SGT-MILLER Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Location: GRAND FORKS AFB Posts: 7	Do these problems you listed also apply to the new M1A Scout and SOCOM 16 variations? I'm curious, because I'm looking into getting one of those variants of the M1A rifles.

06-01-2006, 01:34 AM	#23
Gyrene Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CA Posts: 886	SGT-MILLER - THANKS AGAIN, for your service! All of the Springfield Armory (Geneseo, IL) M1A rifles are the same, some with a longer barrel and some with a shorter barrel. All of the parts come out of the same parts bins except for the barrels and the related short barrel parts. There is only a scope mount difference between the Bush M1A Rifle and the Scout M1A Rifle! The SOCOM is shorter yet! I only differentiate between NOISE GENERATORS (the short barreled ones) and standard length M1A rifles. Almost half of the powder burns outside the muzzle of the short barreled M1A's creating noise that WILL DAMAGE YOUR HEARING (like me as you age, it becomes harder and harder to hear (when it is the better half talking, it can be a good thing but only sometimes))! The 7.62 x 51mm (and the .308) cartridge was designed to be fired out of a 20 to 24 inch barrel, with a minimum flash visible. If you are shooting it out of a barrel less than 20 inches, you lose velocity, create a larger flash, and generate noise that can be unbearable, especially if you are using a muzzle brake (I haven't seen one that doesn't use a muzzle brake!). `

06-03-2006, 03:43 PM	#24
minuteman1970 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NY Posts: 3	I'm pretty happy with my Springfield M1A NM. Cost me around $1200 used.

06-05-2006, 01:15 AM	#25
Ilocano1963 Registered User Join Date: May 2006 Location: San Antonio Posts: 5	I do not know about those amonst you who are or were dissatisfied with their M1A's but I myelf am very much satisfied with what I have. I own a NM M1A from Springfield Armory and also an M21 Tactical. They both shoot very well, none of the problems you have mentioned have I encountred at this point in time and even when I was in the service back home where we were issued M14's. This was the reason why I bought an M1A, the closest I couold get to the past. So, if there were problems with your rifles, they might have been from a different manufacturer or just a matter of poor maintenance.

06-08-2006, 02:20 PM	#26
Gyrene Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CA Posts: 886	minuteman1970 and Ilocano1963 - The rifles you have are two of the best for the money that Springfield Armory (Commercial), Geneseo, IL can produce. My M1A Super Match is a good one, too. It can shoot better than all of the best shooters, though they don't always shoot 500/500 (50 X out of 50 X), the rifles can do it. It is a matter of reading the wind and aiming correctly, with the correct ammo for the specific rifle. Ilocano1963 - They were range customers' M1A rifles NEW from Springfield Armory (Commercial), Geneseo, IL, if there were any maintenance problems, it was Springfield Armory (Commercial), Geneseo, IL that was at fault. In fact they were at fault, because they advise you in their Owners Manual, not to disassemble the M1A, as it will void your warranty. Well, I have been trying to tell you, Springfield Armory (Commercial), Geneseo, IL does not properly lube the M1A, and to do so, it is necessary for you to disassemble the M1A to properly lube it! `

02-29-2008, 02:00 PM	#30
wunhunglo Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: currently "Sunny West Africa" Posts: 1,659	In the bad old days when us Brits were allowed self-loading rifles, I had a love affair with a TRW M14, probably my most accurate service type rifle I have ever had. I currently own a Fulton's Peerless M14 made specifically to comply with the British Firearms laws..........it is one of the most accurate rifles I have owned and can hold it's own against target rifles.........I'm a very happy Fulton customer.