Brasilian .45

[eclancy]

Hi all,
I know that Colt made slides for Brasilian Model 1911a1'S but did Brasil ever make there own complete Model of 1911A1? If they did, did they pay Colt for Colt's royalties??
Thanks again
Clancy

[MAX7.62]

Quite a few Springfield 1911's are actually Brazilian made at Imbel

Colt M1911A1 - .45 ACP - USA - Semi-Automatic - The origins of the Colt Model 1911 pistol go back to the Spanish-American War of 1898. While the US 'liberated' the Philippine Islands from Spanish control, the Filipinos were no more pleased with the conquering Americans than the previous Spaniards. A growing independence movement had already been underway before the war, and its leaders saw a chance to grab power during the war's aftermath. On January 23, 1899, the Malolos constitution was proclaimed and Emilio Aguinaldo was elected president. However, the US didn't recognize the new government, making a conflict inevitable.

On the night of February 4th and the morning of the 5th, US garrisons and troops were attacked across the islands. While the military units of the Filipino government were routed, guerrilla attacks continued for the next decade. US troops particularly feared the Islamic Moros, who saw the fight as a Jihad. Many stories were told of the fanatic Moros taking multiple hits from the Krag rifle in .30-40 and especially the 1894 Colt New Model Army revolver in .38 Long Colt. Reserve stocks of the 1873 Colt Single Action Army and the 1878 Colt Double Action Army revolvers, both chambered for the powerful .45 Colt, were refurbished and shipped to the occupation troops.

The US Army had already begun experiments with semi-automatic pistols, but the question of caliber had not yet been settled. In 1904, a board was established to conduct scientific tests to determine the ideal caliber, shape, size, and construction for a military handgun cartridge. This board was comprised of Colonel John T. Thompson (later the inventor of the Thompson Submachine Gun) of the Ordnance Corps and Colonel Louis A. LaGarde of the Medical Corps. Several cartridges were tested including the 7.65x22mm Luger, the 9x19mm Luger (the current NATO cartridge), the .38 Long Colt, the .38 ACP, the .45 Colt, the .455 Webley, and the .476 Eley. Bullet styles ranged from lead to jacketed, roundnose to truncated cone, hollowpoints to softpoints, and even an exploding projectile! The ten different cartridge types were tested on 10 human cadavers, 2 horses, and 16 cattle. In the end, Thompson and LaGarde concluded that the ideal cartridge would use a .45 caliber projectile weighing between 200 and 230 grains and traveling around 800 fps.

Colt didn't wait for the Thompson/LaGarde tests to start before attempting to convert the John M. Browning-pattern Colt 1902 Military Model pistol to a .45 cartridge. The first prototype in 1904 used a rimless version of the .45 Colt revolver cartridge, but this caused the grip to be too bulky. Work with UMC, Winchester, and Frankford Arsenal led to a shortened .45 ACP cartridge in 1905 with a new pistol model to match. The Colt 1905 was offered up for military tests in the US and Britain, but all of the bugs had not yet been worked out of the design. John Browning was called in to help improve the design for future tests.

In 1906, the US Army sent letters to inventors and arms makers informing them of the Army's intent to conduct tests leading to the procurement of a new .45 caliber pistol chambered for the .45 ACP cartridge. Ammunition would be provided upon request for the price of $2.86 per hundred cartridges. The tests were delayed until early 1907, and out of nine designs submitted (including a .45 Luger), only the pistols of Colt and Savage were considered to have any merit for future development and troop trials.

Savage had a difficult time producing enough pistols for the troop trials. While they had accepted a contract in 1907 for 200 pistols, Savage did not complete delivery until December 1908. Moreover, the pistols were costing more to produce than the price that they had quoted the US Army. The pistols were also expensive, costing five times as much as the later Colt 1909 revolver ($65 vs $13). The US Army nearly dropped Savage as a result, and approached DWM (makers of the Luger) to submit pistols instead. Luckily for Savage, DWM declined not wanting to take the financial risk. When the Savage pistols were tested, a variety of faults were found: the pistols were unreliable in feeding, magazines were difficult to insert yet would fall out when the pistol was fired, and the parts would not interchange between pistols.

In contrast, Colt had delivered their 200 pistols nearly a year earlier. The 1907 'Contract' Colts were not without their own unique problems (sear breakage), but the early submission gave Colt and John Browning a head start on their next submission, the Model 1909 (not to be confused with the revolver). These were found to be superior to the 'Contract' Model 1907, but more tweaking was to be desired. By 1910, the Colt prototypes were very close in appearance to their final 1911 form. However, the Colt prototypes from 1907 to 1910 had only a grip-activated safety. Cavalry troopers were concerned as to the difficulty and safety of lowering a cocked hammer while on horseback.

Colt thus began development of a frame-mounted thumb-activated safety which would allow a Cavalry trooper to safely reholster his cocked pistol until such time that he could safely lower the hammer. A formal test in November 1910 pretty much finished off Savage’s chances of becoming adopted. While the Savage had less parts and was more easily detail stripped, the Colt was more far more accurate and comfortable to shoot. The Colt suffered a cracked barrel during a test with overloaded cartridges, and during subsequent testing, the barrel broke completely damaging the slide.

By March 3, 1911, Colt had submitted improved prototypes with a strengthened barrel and the new thumb safety. The same test protocol as the November 1910 tests was repeated. This time the Colt passed without malfunction while the Savage prototype repeated its same dismal performance. On March 29, 1911, the Secretary of War officially approved the adoption of the Colt as the "US Pistol, Automatic, Calibre .45, Model 1911". And thus, with only minor additional modifications over the years, the Colt 1911 and 1911A1 soldiered on through most of the US’s military conflicts during the 20th Century.

Despite its "official" replacement by the Beretta 92F, J.M. Browning's classic design continues in military and police service. The 1911 combines a relatively thin profile which fits most hands, a user-friendly trigger pull, and the powerful but controllable .45 ACP cartridge. Most of the design's supposed and real faults can be corrected by a competent armorer. In fact, the 1911-style pistol has been undergoing a renaissance with custom versions being adopted/used by the USMC's MEU(SOC), the FBI's SWAT and HRT, and the LAPD SWAT.

[eclancy]

Hi all,
What I am looking for is did Brasil ever make a model 1911A1 for their army. As far as the Colt files show that they didn't make any Models of the 1911A1 in Brasil.
Thanks again
Clancy

[abolic]

(ARMY ARCHIVE) report of the Thompson LaGuarde tests. The testers had no reason whatsover to recommend the .45. the first day, they gut shot 6-7 steers, 1 minute between shots, with 7 loads. All the cattle were still standing after 6 shots. So they abandoned THAT "test protocol". :-) The next day, they rapidfired 6-7 loads into 6-7 cattle's chests. The fastest to drop was 40 seconds, .38 long colt, due to a severed aorta. All this "test" proved was that cattle take a LOT more "stopping" (with body hits) than do men.

Cattle attacks are very rare. Dog attacks are not. There's lots of stray, mean, feral dogs to test ammo on, and the results are a lot more meaninful. These tests will prove that .45 fmj ammo is pretty danged ineffective, with chest hits. It's just been the recipient of decades of bs by liars, that's all.

[Stock Doc]

Well I would rather not be hit by one and that is no B.S. Rick B

[wjkuleck]

What I am looking for is did Brasil ever make a model 1911A1 for their army.

Yes, in 9x19 Parabellum.

Regards,

Walt

[wjkuleck]

From http://www.imbel.gov.br/:

"The M973 9mm Pistol is the weapon in use in the Brazilian Army.

The safety, robustness and reliability favored the return of the Colt M1911 project."

Regards.

Walt
Author, The M14 Complete Assembly Guide
The M1 Garand Complete Assembly Guide
The AR-15 Complete Owner's Guide
The AR-15 Complete Assembly Guide

[meatloaf]

Isn't the Taurus company in Brazil? I was told that when Springfield Armory lost its lease of the land the factories sit on, they just up and left there equipment because it cost more to move it then to buy all new equipment. Hence the Taurus company was started. Please correct me if Im wrong but this is what I have heard for years.

If this is true then yes Brazil makes alot of 1911 based platforms.

[meatloaf]

Originally Posted by abolic

(ARMY ARCHIVE) report of the Thompson LaGuarde tests. The testers had no reason whatsover to recommend the .45. the first day, they gut shot 6-7 steers, 1 minute between shots, with 7 loads. All the cattle were still standing after 6 shots. So they abandoned THAT "test protocol". :-) The next day, they rapidfired 6-7 loads into 6-7 cattle's chests. The fastest to drop was 40 seconds, .38 long colt, due to a severed aorta. All this "test" proved was that cattle take a LOT more "stopping" (with body hits) than do men.

Cattle attacks are very rare. Dog attacks are not. There's lots of stray, mean, feral dogs to test ammo on, and the results are a lot more meaninful. These tests will prove that .45 fmj ammo is pretty danged ineffective, with chest hits. It's just been the recipient of decades of bs by liars, that's all.

Yeah.....Tell that to all of the guys that fought in Vietnam that had to use there 1911 in defense of attacking troops. Everyone I know, or should say grew up listening to said it was the only pistol that put the enemy down everytime with one shot. Ill take their word over any lab testing any day.

[wjkuleck]

Please correct me if Im wrong but this is what I have heard for years.

There's some confusion here. Only quite recently has Taurus produced a 1911 clone (Taurus PT1911), which is not used by the Brazilian army. Remember, Ed's original question was in relation to military use of the M1911A1 in Brazil.

History

Forjas Taurus S/A (Taurus Forge) is a manufacturing conglomerate based in Porto Alegre, Brazil. Beginning as a tool and die manufacturer, the company now consists of divisions focusing on firearms, metals manufacturing, plastics, body armor,

Taurus produced its first revolver, the Model 38101SO, in 1941 and began exporting its revolvers to the U.S. market in 1968 through a series of importers.

In 1970, the Bangor Punta Corporation, then the parent company of Smith & Wesson, purchased 54 percent of Forjas Taurus, allowing the two firearms manufacturers to easily share information regarding design and manufacturing. In 1977, Taurus was purchased from Bangor Punta by its current owners, and its ties to Smith & Wesson were severed.

In 1980, after Italian arms manufacturer Beretta had completed its contracts to produce firearms for Brazil's military, Taurus purchased Beretta's São Paulo manufacturing plant along with the tooling, technical drawings, and work force necessary to produce several different pistol designs.

In order to more effectively tap the U.S. market, the company created a subsidiary, Taurus International Manufacturing Incorporated, also known as Taurus USA, in 1984.

(From Wikipedia)


It's Imbel that has the relationship with S, Inc., which latter has never had a manufacturing facility in Brazil.

Now, as to Ed's second question; I do not yet have any information that suggests Colt was paid royalties by Imbel, but I'll dig a little deeper.

Regards,

Walt

[tonystewartfan]

Originally Posted by eclancy

Hi all,
I know that Colt made slides for Brasilian Model 1911a1'S but did Brasil ever make there own complete Model of 1911A1? If they did, did they pay Colt for Colt's royalties??
Thanks again
Clancy

I have a Taurus 1911A1 and it is made in Brazil.

[wjkuleck]

I have a Taurus 1911A1 and it is made in Brazil.

One more time: that's not Ed's question.

Here is the answer. Brazil manufactured M1911A1s on machinery supplied by the US Government in 1946. That's not necessarily when the pistols were manufactured, it's when the machinery transfer began. Remember, Brazil was an ally of the US during WWII, sending P-47s to fight in Italy, for example.

The .45 M1911A1 became the standard Brazilian Army pistol in the early '50's, later to be supplanted by the M1911A1 in 9x19mm as the "M973." I suspect the .45 slides from Brazil that Sarco had for a couple of decades were surplussed from the Brazilian army and the government arsenal, IMBEL.

For those who haven't read my previous posts, IMBEL was the supplier of M1911A1a to the Brazilian Army. IMBEL is a Brazilian government manufactory.

Please read my previous post on Taurus; the Taurus PT1911 is a recent product unrelated to the Brazilian Army, Colt, or the US Government.

IMBEL was authorized by the US Government, which supplied the tools, machinery and drawings, to manufacture M1911A1s for the Brazilian Army. IMBEL was and is unrelated to Colt. Since the manufacture was a matter between the Brazilian and US governments, I cannot believe Colt was compensated.

In recent years IMBEL has been the supplier of M1911A1s and components to Springfield, Inc. in the USA. IMBEL's web site notes the "partnership" between IMBEL and S, Inc. That's why S, Inc. pistols have "Made in Brazil" on them.

Have I been more clear this time ?

Regards,

Walt

[meatloaf]

^crystal clear

[wjkuleck]

Originally Posted by meatloaf

^crystal clear

Phew!

Thanks. I thought I might be losin it!

Regards,

Walt

[Deersniper]

Great post on the 1911 's history. My SS Loaded Champ say Made in Brazil - Imbel. It works great. The govt made a good choice on guns.

[JUNKER]

The Argentine Army adopted the Colt 45 in 1927, it was made with Colt´s licence by the Argentine Military Factories, and there were another factori, called HAFDASA, that made a clon between Colt and Spanish Astra Called "Ballester Molina pistol", in 45 ACP too, it was almost the same pistol but with out safe grip

[wjkuleck]

Originally Posted by JUNKER

Spanish Astra Called "Ballester Molina pistol",

Actually it was the Spanish Star pistols whose fire control system with pivoting trigger that was adapted to the M1911 silhouette. The first production was labeled "Ballester Rigaud," then later "Ballester Molina."

I have a first year Ballester, marked Rigaud.

Regards,

Walt

[K75RT]

Here is my Ballester-Molina; a great shooter.

[Jersey Jailer]

Hey Walt,
I understood you the first time. I've got a 1917 S&W So. American contract with a broken trigger, Will an early N Frame trigger fit it? If you would PM me about it so I don't jack the thread.

Ernie.