A flaw of the 1911 could be fatal 4 you.

Archetype_wyo · 09-22-2009, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadzero

??????

yes, a 45 out of a 1911. the only one dieing will be the BG.

I think they should just change the name of the 9mm to .380 magnum.

They'd have to neck it down to .25 auto sized lead. LOL make it dirt cheap and then finally we'll have safe streets lol.

Big Dog · 09-22-2009, 09:03 AM

Well, in two short years, the Colt M1911 will be one hundred years old, with nearly every gun manufacturer copying it, and it's been used by militaries, LEO and competitive shooters around the world.

Pretty danged good for a "fatally flawed" design, in my book. I will keep mine.

And can we finally bury this horse's carsass? It's really getting stiff and stinky.........

Taurus Fan · 09-28-2009, 06:23 AM

The 1911 doesn't have ANY flaws it's....just...... perfect.

SwedeSteve · 09-29-2009, 08:50 AM

Just ask the Moro's !!

BenchRest · 09-29-2009, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjarhead

Used to do this when I lost my Red Ryder pistol...I also hollered Bang! The louder the yell the bigger the bullet.

Wish I had known this 40 years ago, think of all the (imaginary) dinosaurs and space men I could have killed!!

DaTeacha · 09-29-2009, 05:15 PM

I think if they're going to make a .380 magnum they should rebate the case head to allow it work on a narrower .32 ACP action, then put a belt on the case so it won't fit in a normal 9mm cylinder. Finally, bring back the scaled down 1911 to handle it. I had a .380 Colt that was a miniature twin of the 1911 I had at the same time. It was a neat little gun and very high up on my list of guns I wish I had never traded or sold.

I know what's coming next from the OP. He's going to say the 1911 should be taken off the market or modified because someone who keeps their thumb right behind the hammer while shooting (remember, you did exactly that with your "finger gun" when you were a kid) is going to get his thumbnail trimmed a bit when the gun is fired. I hear that grip is the next best thing in training since the muscle memory of playing shoot 'em up as a kid will make it totally natural to operate a real gun that way.

Big Dog · 09-30-2009, 08:28 AM

Proper use works fine. Improper use causes an "ouchy". Don't get simpler than that.

St. John Browning knew what he was doing.

SwedeSteve · 09-30-2009, 10:58 AM

My local Gun Shop has one of those Colt 380's Teach !! A Colt Pony maybe ?? Not sure. I looked hard at buying it, but with no 380 ammo available I have all but forgotten it.

DaTeacha · 09-30-2009, 11:15 AM

Yeah, I think that's it. Buy it! It's a sweet little gun. Then you can build it up into your own .380 magnum.

.380 won't be overpriced forever. If the gun is reasonable, at least ask to try it out. You can probably afford one box of ammo for it, and you'll be hooked after about the first magazine.

CrazyIvan · 09-30-2009, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rl356

Shooting a firearm in any situation, let alone a defensive one, in that manner just seems rediculous. It would be un-natural as .22guy stated, and I don't recall ever hearing about this in any formal defensive handgun training I've been through. And since the 1911 poses a problem for this particular grip, it has a design flaw? I think not.

Yea...

"Well DAMMIT! If I grab this shovel by the other end, it don't work! Who came up with this stupid idea anyway!?"

Ninja Piper · 09-30-2009, 01:02 PM

I have actually heard an AF CATM instructor say the same thing... This had to be an internet myth.

5shot · 10-16-2009, 09:42 PM

Dropping back in as Billy probably needs a new laugh or 2, and 2 answer SightNSqueeze's post aways back.

Remember -- i'm just the messenger, so don't "shoot" me, OK?

..........

4 newbees to this thread, here's a link to the culprit that started it all: AIMED Point Shooting or P&S

Here's a link to another suspect that provides background info in support of what is said in the culprit:AIMED Point Shooting or P&S Chronology

It's a chronology of what I call P&S and provides references to, and THE ACTUAL words from the original military instructional manual on the 1911, and some of the other manuals of that time WHICH SPECIFY THE DESIGN FLAW, AND CAUTION AGAINST USING A PROVEN METHOD OF POINT SHOOTING WITH THE 1911 BECAUSE OF THAT FLAW.

To bad for the poor GI who might have used that PS method to save their butt in CQB. They were left to use sight shooting which fails big time in CQB per the studies and stats.

The CQ armed encounter hit rate is < 20%. And if you are going to be shot and/or killed, there is a 90% chance that it will be at < 15 feet.

Another cluprit is a digest of the Force Science Institute's just released info on its new CQB study which says that season POLICE operators may use Point Shooting that they have learned along the way, while "ready for the street" cops, will try to use the sights but will fail. Ergo, you should learn to Point Shoot if you are a run of the mill type like most are. Here's a link to the digest.AIMED Point Shooting or P&S For Self Defense

Another suspect in this is the NRA which says to use Point Shooting in CQ self defense. Here's a link to an article on that.http:/www.pointshooting.com/nrab.htm

So, if you are going to learn PS, why not use the simpliest and easiest to learn method that provides for natural, fast, and accurate aiming (including automatic and correct sight alignment + sight picture), for each and every shot. It's the PS method which doesn't rely on the must be met marksmanship requirements of Sight Shooting, or as with some PS methods, using body indexing, or an aimpoint, a stiff arm, high volume repetitous training, and etc... And one that can be learned and maintained with little or no training.

Of course, common sense and safe gun handling should be used, which means that those with 1911's can't use it, because if it's used with the 1911, the 1911 can jam when fired. Sorry about that.

deadzero · 10-18-2009, 10:35 AM

5 shots going to have to change his name to "4.5 finger" if he tries that with one of the massive big bore revolvers.

the only thing I can possibly see "wrong" with the 1911 is it is not idiot-proof. nor should it be.

if the darwin effect kicks in, oh well.......

Big Dog · 10-18-2009, 10:44 AM

"Point Shooting" is indeed a proven technique of defensive shooting. It involves learning to point the firearm naturally to hit the target without aiming.

It DOES NOT have anything to do with the OP's original failed idea of using one's index finger to 'point' alongside the weapon. THAT is the problem we are speaking against.

The OP really needs to do some studying on this.........
It may save him some pain.

5shot · 03-01-2010, 11:31 AM

Here's a link to a page on my site that has pics and videos of Sight Shooting being used effectively in CQ.

AIMED Point Shooting or P&S

Hey, just having a bit of fun.

On a more serious note, here are pics of a 1902 Patent and a 1908 Patent:

This is wording from the 1908 Patent:

"This invention relates to a device adapted for attachment to fire-arms of various kinds, more especially to shot - guns or hunting rifles, and has for its object to facilitate quick and accurate pointing of the weapon without being obliged to adjust the gun-stock to the shoulder for aiming at birds just rising from the bush or in flight, or at other game.

The invention is based largely upon the fact that the conscious or sub-conscious faculties intuitively enable men to point the index finger directly and accurately at any visible object without bringing the outstretched finger into alinement with or between the eye and the object."

The U.S. Army, in it Combat Pistol Manual of 2003, agrees that soldiers can do that, but cautioned against its use with the 1911 in its publications from 1912 to 1941.

The U.S. Army says that if the index finger is placed along the side of the gun, as it will be when using P&S, it can depress the slide stop pin with firing and the 1911 can jam.

The obvious conclusion, is: -- SO DON'T DO THAT.

I experienced two jams using P&S with another pistol with a similar slide stop design.

And don't get me wrong, the 1911 is an excellent functioning piece of machinery. That is alluded to in my article on the 1911.

The rub is that our armed forces were denied the option of using a method of shooting/killing the enemy that is effective at CQ, because the slide stop design was not modified to prevent the 1911 from jamming if that method of shooting was used with it.

Makes me wonder who "we" (those in charge), were looking out for, our troops or the enemy. The method was certainly known of at that time. Also, a web search of Ruby shoots Oswald will get you modern day proof that the method is deadly at CQ.

Also, P&S provides you with a fast, automatic and correct flash sight picture: AIMED Point Shooting or P&S

It can be used when Sight Shooting can't be used, and it can enhance Sight Shooting if lighting, time, and circumstances allow for the use of SS.

And it can be used with the method/s developed by Fairbairn and Sykes, and Applegate. And ditto for use with Threat Focus, QK and CAR.

It works when standing still, when moving, in good light or bad, and when shooting moving targets. Even works when shooting aerials. There's videos on my site and on U-tube of it being used as stated.

Now, to those who are of the mind set that one must use the sights at CQ (beyond contact distance), that would be OK if all gunfights occur in good lighting, and one has the time and composure to use them.

According to the stats, if you are going to be shot and/or killed, there is a 90% chance that that will happen at less than 15 feet.

At that distance there will be little time for proscribed breathing and careful squeezing of the trigger, and RE-AIMING each shot taken, and etc...which are critical for accurate shooting.

Those who don't know how to Point Shoot, will be "on their own" in a CQ life threat situation. And according to the literature, the shooting method they will employ, is instinctive shooting.

Not a bad choice given no other, but most likely an ineffectual one, as the acknowledged MISS rate in armed encounters is 80+%.

The only saving grace is that gunfights are rare, and most likely the perp will not know Point Shooting.

So unless one is having very bad day, he/she will not be in a gunfight, and if so, will probably survive anyway.

SwedeSteve · 03-01-2010, 12:05 PM

Oh No !! Who the ^%$# dug this turd up again. Oh ..... that figures !!

5shot · 03-01-2010, 12:35 PM

Hey Stevo,

I had second thoughts about the post, and was about to modify or even erase it, not wanting to be to much of a PITA.

But you sort of made my day.

Have a good one.

Midas · 03-01-2010, 04:13 PM

And the dumbest thread on G&G gets resurrected.....

TexasT · 03-01-2010, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midas

And the dumbest thread on G&G gets resurrected.....

Happens all the time...

gandog56 · 03-03-2010, 06:48 AM

This thing just proves that crap must float since it keeps rising back up.

09-22-2009, 09:03 AM	#122
Big Dog Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 14,118	Well, in two short years, the Colt M1911 will be one hundred years old, with nearly every gun manufacturer copying it, and it's been used by militaries, LEO and competitive shooters around the world. Pretty danged good for a "fatally flawed" design, in my book. I will keep mine. And can we finally bury this horse's carsass? It's really getting stiff and stinky......... __________________ "A bold spirit embiggens the smallest man!" Jebediah Springfield

09-29-2009, 08:50 AM	#124
SwedeSteve Suspected Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Anchortown, Alaska Posts: 26,432	Just ask the Moro's !! __________________ In the absence of orders, ATTACK !!

09-29-2009, 05:15 PM	#126
DaTeacha Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: near Funk, Ohio Posts: 3,889	I think if they're going to make a .380 magnum they should rebate the case head to allow it work on a narrower .32 ACP action, then put a belt on the case so it won't fit in a normal 9mm cylinder. Finally, bring back the scaled down 1911 to handle it. I had a .380 Colt that was a miniature twin of the 1911 I had at the same time. It was a neat little gun and very high up on my list of guns I wish I had never traded or sold. I know what's coming next from the OP. He's going to say the 1911 should be taken off the market or modified because someone who keeps their thumb right behind the hammer while shooting (remember, you did exactly that with your "finger gun" when you were a kid) is going to get his thumbnail trimmed a bit when the gun is fired. I hear that grip is the next best thing in training since the muscle memory of playing shoot 'em up as a kid will make it totally natural to operate a real gun that way. __________________ Teach NRA -- If you're reading this, you should be a member. United, We Stand. Last edited by DaTeacha; 09-29-2009 at 05:18 PM.

09-30-2009, 08:28 AM	#127
Big Dog Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 14,118	Proper use works fine. Improper use causes an "ouchy". Don't get simpler than that. St. John Browning knew what he was doing. __________________ "A bold spirit embiggens the smallest man!" Jebediah Springfield

09-30-2009, 10:58 AM	#128
SwedeSteve Suspected Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Anchortown, Alaska Posts: 26,432	My local Gun Shop has one of those Colt 380's Teach !! A Colt Pony maybe ?? Not sure. I looked hard at buying it, but with no 380 ammo available I have all but forgotten it. __________________ In the absence of orders, ATTACK !!

09-28-2009, 06:23 AM	#123
Taurus Fan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: COBRA COMMAND HEADQUARTERS Posts: 1,632	The 1911 doesn't have ANY flaws it's....just...... perfect.

09-30-2009, 11:15 AM	#129
DaTeacha Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: near Funk, Ohio Posts: 3,889	Yeah, I think that's it. Buy it! It's a sweet little gun. Then you can build it up into your own .380 magnum. .380 won't be overpriced forever. If the gun is reasonable, at least ask to try it out. You can probably afford one box of ammo for it, and you'll be hooked after about the first magazine. __________________ Teach NRA -- If you're reading this, you should be a member. United, We Stand.

09-30-2009, 01:02 PM	#131
Ninja Piper Pie > Cake Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Watertown, WI Posts: 1,097	I have actually heard an AF CATM instructor say the same thing... This had to be an internet myth. __________________ The "Safety Briefing" should NEVER be confused with the "Safety Dance"

10-16-2009, 09:42 PM	#132
5shot Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 10	I'MMMM BAAAAACCK just in time for haloween Dropping back in as Billy probably needs a new laugh or 2, and 2 answer SightNSqueeze's post aways back. Remember -- i'm just the messenger, so don't "shoot" me, OK? .......... 4 newbees to this thread, here's a link to the culprit that started it all: AIMED Point Shooting or P&S Here's a link to another suspect that provides background info in support of what is said in the culprit:AIMED Point Shooting or P&S Chronology It's a chronology of what I call P&S and provides references to, and THE ACTUAL words from the original military instructional manual on the 1911, and some of the other manuals of that time WHICH SPECIFY THE DESIGN FLAW, AND CAUTION AGAINST USING A PROVEN METHOD OF POINT SHOOTING WITH THE 1911 BECAUSE OF THAT FLAW. To bad for the poor GI who might have used that PS method to save their butt in CQB. They were left to use sight shooting which fails big time in CQB per the studies and stats. The CQ armed encounter hit rate is < 20%. And if you are going to be shot and/or killed, there is a 90% chance that it will be at < 15 feet. Another cluprit is a digest of the Force Science Institute's just released info on its new CQB study which says that season POLICE operators may use Point Shooting that they have learned along the way, while "ready for the street" cops, will try to use the sights but will fail. Ergo, you should learn to Point Shoot if you are a run of the mill type like most are. Here's a link to the digest.AIMED Point Shooting or P&S For Self Defense Another suspect in this is the NRA which says to use Point Shooting in CQ self defense. Here's a link to an article on that.http:/www.pointshooting.com/nrab.htm So, if you are going to learn PS, why not use the simpliest and easiest to learn method that provides for natural, fast, and accurate aiming (including automatic and correct sight alignment + sight picture), for each and every shot. It's the PS method which doesn't rely on the must be met marksmanship requirements of Sight Shooting, or as with some PS methods, using body indexing, or an aimpoint, a stiff arm, high volume repetitous training, and etc... And one that can be learned and maintained with little or no training. Of course, common sense and safe gun handling should be used, which means that those with 1911's can't use it, because if it's used with the 1911, the 1911 can jam when fired. Sorry about that. Last edited by 5shot; 10-16-2009 at 09:54 PM.

10-18-2009, 10:35 AM	#133
deadzero Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: deep in the swamps SC Posts: 1,404	5 shots going to have to change his name to "4.5 finger" if he tries that with one of the massive big bore revolvers. the only thing I can possibly see "wrong" with the 1911 is it is not idiot-proof. nor should it be. if the darwin effect kicks in, oh well....... __________________ If I need more than 1 shot, I need more practice.

10-18-2009, 10:44 AM	#134
Big Dog Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 14,118	"Point Shooting" is indeed a proven technique of defensive shooting. It involves learning to point the firearm naturally to hit the target without aiming. It DOES NOT have anything to do with the OP's original failed idea of using one's index finger to 'point' alongside the weapon. THAT is the problem we are speaking against. The OP really needs to do some studying on this......... It may save him some pain. __________________ "A bold spirit embiggens the smallest man!" Jebediah Springfield

03-01-2010, 11:31 AM	#135
5shot Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 10	Here's a link to a page on my site that has pics and videos of Sight Shooting being used effectively in CQ. AIMED Point Shooting or P&S Hey, just having a bit of fun. On a more serious note, here are pics of a 1902 Patent and a 1908 Patent: This is wording from the 1908 Patent: "This invention relates to a device adapted for attachment to fire-arms of various kinds, more especially to shot - guns or hunting rifles, and has for its object to facilitate quick and accurate pointing of the weapon without being obliged to adjust the gun-stock to the shoulder for aiming at birds just rising from the bush or in flight, or at other game. The invention is based largely upon the fact that the conscious or sub-conscious faculties intuitively enable men to point the index finger directly and accurately at any visible object without bringing the outstretched finger into alinement with or between the eye and the object." The U.S. Army, in it Combat Pistol Manual of 2003, agrees that soldiers can do that, but cautioned against its use with the 1911 in its publications from 1912 to 1941. The U.S. Army says that if the index finger is placed along the side of the gun, as it will be when using P&S, it can depress the slide stop pin with firing and the 1911 can jam. The obvious conclusion, is: -- SO DON'T DO THAT. I experienced two jams using P&S with another pistol with a similar slide stop design. And don't get me wrong, the 1911 is an excellent functioning piece of machinery. That is alluded to in my article on the 1911. The rub is that our armed forces were denied the option of using a method of shooting/killing the enemy that is effective at CQ, because the slide stop design was not modified to prevent the 1911 from jamming if that method of shooting was used with it. Makes me wonder who "we" (those in charge), were looking out for, our troops or the enemy. The method was certainly known of at that time. Also, a web search of Ruby shoots Oswald will get you modern day proof that the method is deadly at CQ. Also, P&S provides you with a fast, automatic and correct flash sight picture: AIMED Point Shooting or P&S It can be used when Sight Shooting can't be used, and it can enhance Sight Shooting if lighting, time, and circumstances allow for the use of SS. And it can be used with the method/s developed by Fairbairn and Sykes, and Applegate. And ditto for use with Threat Focus, QK and CAR. It works when standing still, when moving, in good light or bad, and when shooting moving targets. Even works when shooting aerials. There's videos on my site and on U-tube of it being used as stated. Now, to those who are of the mind set that one must use the sights at CQ (beyond contact distance), that would be OK if all gunfights occur in good lighting, and one has the time and composure to use them. According to the stats, if you are going to be shot and/or killed, there is a 90% chance that that will happen at less than 15 feet. At that distance there will be little time for proscribed breathing and careful squeezing of the trigger, and RE-AIMING each shot taken, and etc...which are critical for accurate shooting. Those who don't know how to Point Shoot, will be "on their own" in a CQ life threat situation. And according to the literature, the shooting method they will employ, is instinctive shooting. Not a bad choice given no other, but most likely an ineffectual one, as the acknowledged MISS rate in armed encounters is 80+%. The only saving grace is that gunfights are rare, and most likely the perp will not know Point Shooting. So unless one is having very bad day, he/she will not be in a gunfight, and if so, will probably survive anyway.

03-01-2010, 12:05 PM	#136
SwedeSteve Suspected Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Anchortown, Alaska Posts: 26,432	Oh No !! Who the ^%$# dug this turd up again. Oh ..... that figures !! __________________ In the absence of orders, ATTACK !!

03-01-2010, 12:35 PM	#137
5shot Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 10	Hey Stevo, I had second thoughts about the post, and was about to modify or even erase it, not wanting to be to much of a PITA. But you sort of made my day. Have a good one.

03-01-2010, 04:13 PM	#138
Midas Chief Troll B' Gone Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NW Arkansas Posts: 3,833 Blog Entries: 6	And the dumbest thread on G&G gets resurrected..... __________________ NRA Life Member 10mm Auto-The ultimate trail gun

03-03-2010, 06:48 AM	#140
gandog56 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Montgomery, IL. Posts: 13,935	This thing just proves that crap must float since it keeps rising back up. __________________ People think I'm paranoid because I own guns. If I own guns, what do I have to be paranoid about?