The difference being AK's are semi-auto, which makes more sense for a bullpup conversion.
Yup. And semi-auto battle rifles rule.
That's why the M40 variants are falling out of favor.
Used to be, and still is to a minor point, that a bolt was required for accuracy.
No more. Semi-auto's approach bolts in terms of accuracy and reliability.
It's a no-brainer. If you were in a combat situation, would you rather have a bolt or semi-auto- all other things being equal?
The difference being AK's are semi-auto, which makes more sense for a bullpup conversion.
Yea but these were not real conversions they were AKs and Mosins with stocks cut off to a nub to decrease the over all length of pull, then they used wire and a pieces of attached wood for a new grip and trigger that was stuck onto the forward handguard. The wire was fashioned to make a forward trigger that when pressure was applied it pulled the real trigger in the back.
Very MacGyverish.
__________________
It's not always the size of the dog in the fight. Often it's the size of the fight in the dog.
BUllpups never did drop off much weight. It was simply redoing the design to make it far more compact. I agree there is a place for bullpups, but I have a hard time seeing a bullpup bolt action being a good design except perhaps a .50 BMG sniper rifle, where a barrel can be over 30" in length.
I keep seeing people saying a 120 yr old rifle isn't a match for a modern rifle, that's a load of bs. A Mosin, in good condition will shoot just as good as any new comparable 'expensive' rifle. You can have the most expensive 'sniper' rifle in the world and if you can't hit the target, don't blame the rifle. If you have a Mosin in good condition and can't hit the target, it's time to find some instruction in the proper use of a long rifle.
I keep seeing people saying a 120 yr old rifle isn't a match for a modern rifle, that's a load of bs. A Mosin, in good condition will shoot just as good as any new comparable 'expensive' rifle. You can have the most expensive 'sniper' rifle in the world and if you can't hit the target, don't blame the rifle. If you have a Mosin in good condition and can't hit the target, it's time to find some instruction in the proper use of a long rifle.
I looked and looked and looked but I see no such saying from anyone on this thread.
Are you simply venting? Or did you mean to have something of interest to say?
Most folks on this site own one or more old warhorse and love shooting them. Some even hunt with'em.
__________________ If ya don't know where I've been and ya don't know where I'm going, your opinions of me don't count.
"As a Sniper weapon there are far more accurate modern platforms that should be utilized. If you were a hostage with 2" clear shot to the head of the guy holding you, would you want the SWAT sniper taking that shot with a 70 year old surplus weapon that they pulled outta a vat of cosmoline? Jeez.."
Yep, give me a Mosin sniper rifle in good working order and I'd take that shot.
"They could buy a .308 Savage for five hundred bucks and it'll beat the Mosin in every category."
Bull pockey!
As your sig states Jarhead, the ability to shoot has little to do with the rifle. Guess I'm getting tired of the rolled eyes and snickers when I pull out my M91, but when I 'kill' clays at 100m with iron sights, I usually end up giving a history lesson to the 'black gun' crowd. This old geezer gets a good laugh out of it.
I have to agree A Mosin Nagant in good working order can knock the crapola out of a bad guy just as well as a fancified modern "sniper" gun.
The modern long arms now have a myraid of sighting systems, recoil absorbing devices, cheekrests, bi pods, electrical ilumination systems, lazer sights, night vision, and report supression devices, global positioning system location range finders, they are lighter or heavier, hold more ammunition, and have improved safety systems. This enumerates only a few of the so called improvements found on modern sniper systems.
And yet The whole point of All of that equipment is to Put a bullet in to a bad human target.
Mosin Nagants Can still do that very Well
C'mon....
I've just recently entered the world of "Mosin"...and have a great deal of respect for them for what they are, given when they were built...but to say that they're on par with modern weapon systems is just absurd.
With very few exceptions, they're not even capable of MOA accuracy.
SO...if you want that sniper to take that bad guy off ya at 800 yards with the Mosin, good luck. I'll have the guy with the M40A3 take the shot.
Even without all the "modern" electronic add-ons, the level of accuracy of the rifle itself is not satisfactory. Sure, they can put a bullet in a bad guy just like any other rifle. But capability of long-range engagement as a sniper rifle is sub-par.
Now with that said, I'm currently sporterizing one to use as a long-range target rifle, just for the hell of it...knowing it won't have the MOA accuracy of my $500 Savage.
I've shot M40's I'll keep my Mosin and why waste money on a weapon that you yourself admit won't do the job. Sounds like you got one with a less that good barrel. If you want a long range target rifle drop 800 bucks and get a M28/76, a Finn target rifle built from a Mosin.
C'mon....
I've just recently entered the world of "Mosin"...and have a great deal of respect for them for what they are, given when they were built...but to say that they're on par with modern weapon systems is just absurd.
With very few exceptions, they're not even capable of MOA accuracy.
SO...if you want that sniper to take that bad guy off ya at 800 yards with the Mosin, good luck. I'll have the guy with the M40A3 take the shot
you have to take into consideration that when the mosins were made they were made in bulk to fullfill a need they werent manufactured as precisely as the m40a3. plus a lot of the barrels have been shot so much you may need a larger diameter hand loaded bullet. plus the ammunition the military uses for their snipers i believe is hand loaded. plus any idiot whos been tuaght to use the windage and elavation can shoot and hit a target with the new weapon system we have today it takes a skilled marksman to use a piece of **** 4x scope on a m91/30 to whack some one a t a great disstance
__________________ Sprout47-
" enjoy the things that go "bang" - less rabble rabble and more pew pew I say"
With very few exceptions, they're not even capable of MOA accuracy.
SO...if you want that sniper to take that bad guy off ya at 800 yards with the Mosin, good luck. I'll have the guy with the M40A3 take the shot.
Would you, now.
And, I must comment on your post concerning SWAT snipers, as well.
First of all, I do admire the accuracy potential of the current crop of Savage rifles. I use one on duty as a precision rifle; with our current issue ammunition (175 grain GMM) it is a sub-moa rifle.
But I would NOT feel bad about soeone taking a precision shot with the Mosin rifle. I have one--I got it from Big 5 at the sterling price of $90.00. I did do a quick polish on the trigger and sear--got it down to a good 5 pound pull.
About your 800 yard shot...
The .308 round will arrive at the 800 yard line packing roughly 820 pounds-feet of energy. This is for a cartridge similar to the 175 grain Gold Medal Match round, and also Cartridge, Special Ball, or M118LR.
The 7.62x54R cartridge will arrive with almost the same specs--right at 800 ft/lb.
Next observation--note on the bullpup the line of recoil, as noted from the centerline of the bore to the shoulder pocket. It's on the same plane--hence, felt recoil will be much less, and muzzle climb will be almost non existent.
As for the bolt, that can be fixed simply by lapping it in, or instaling a bearing sleeve to ensure that the bolt does not wobble while it's being worked.
Looks like a good mod for me--and shows some innovation too. Instead of spending tons of money, the Russians took something that works and installed a modification that works well, too.
Guess that some of you would have the same things to say if the US Gov't had--instead of adapting the M16--come out with something like the Sage EBR stock and a compensator for the M14.
Powderman,
I don't dispute anything you state...
I'm aware of the excellent ballistics of the 7.62 x 54R, and that's why I've elected to take a "shot" and see if I can build one that's capable of ringing some steel at long range. I wouldn't be taking all the time to do what I'm doing (aftermarket stock with pillar and receiver bedding) if I didn't agree they're a capable rifle.
I'm ON your side, not agin it....
I still don't feel they have a place on the modern battlefield, except in the absence of more capable weapons. Mosin Nagants are no doubt still taking lives effectively on the battlefield. It wouldn't be my choice.
I am curious about the level of performance you were able to achieve with your Mosin- can you elaborate? Do you handload?
Why are people so fascinated by bullpup Mosins that they keep bringing them up here? A bolt action bullpup is the stupidest Bubba idea in the world!
I am not at all fascinated by bull pup Mosin Nagant rifle or any "taticool" rifle. I do find it interesting that the Ruskies can do this and the Fins do this 7.62 Tkiv 85 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
to a rifle uniquely there's. Then when someones else "sporterizes" or "acccurizies" one, a philosophical discussion begins about how unethical it is to tamper with a rifle of historical significance, calling it "Bubbaed" , in which allot of times I agree.
Last edited by potbellyFin; 01-17-2011 at 10:11 PM.
They're only using the receivers, but still...
Speaks to the quality that the Fins used in their manufacturing process, and upholds the reason why old Fin milsurps command the prices they do, I suppose.
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