cycling problems with my mosin m-44 - Page 2

SilverRun · 07-08-2004, 07:58 PM

Well now that the problem seems to be solved, my I attempt to change the subject a bit. What kind of accuracy are you getting with the Nagant? I have looked at these rifles in the past, but have always passed on them? Any thoughts on the general quality of these rifles?

SilverRun · 07-08-2004, 08:00 PM

Sorry, the above post should have read as follows - too much beer!

Well now that the problem seems to be solved, may I attempt to change the subject a bit. What kind of accuracy are you getting with the Nagant? I have looked at these rifles in the past, but have always passed on them? Any thoughts on the general quality of these rifles?

whirlwind · 07-08-2004, 11:15 PM

when i first got both of mine they both shot about 3 to 4 MOA. ive been focused on the elder of the two for a while now,and after alot of tweeking i have shot 1MOA but that was with some bulets that are no longer readily available. now with my reloads i am getting about 1.5 to 2 MOA outa it. im really pretty pleased with it! although even with a 12x scope on it it will not even come close to out shooting my swedish mauser with iron sights! i love da swede but the mosin's are just a heck of alot of fun! oh...mine are m-91 and a m-91/30

7mmag6 · 07-08-2004, 11:39 PM

HI silver, I have not reallly shot mine very seriously yet, Im still working out the kinks with it, some of the other guys probably know better than I, but to answer your question as best I can, they are really a well made action as far as I can tell, the stocks are usually excellent, and the supply of mosins are plentiful for now. The safety is really funky on them and it takes 3 men and a small boy to pull the safety into position. I just read in one of the gun mags , ummm I cant remember which one it was, but it was a comparison between a k-98 and a 91/30 and the mosin outshot the 98 big time in every range ( thats what happens when you get old you forget a lot) now where was I oh yes there is a problem with sticky bolts that is from what I can tell universal. read the above and you see 3 different solutions ( the ahem other forum dedicated to mosins is full of the same complaints) and different solutions, but keeping it fastidious and a good proper cleaning seems to be the the way to go. the craftsmanship I think is better than the k-98 ( some people will argue that) there is 3 variants ummm 91/30 the longest barrel, the 44, carbine sized and the 38, which is even shorter, (there is probably more that I dont know about). There are different types such as finnish, but I have no knowledge of them, except Ive heard the finns are excellent rifles. I think they are a real bargain, but its a grab bag you never know what you will get.( Ill tell you one thing for sure, the 44 is really dam loud, and kicks up a flame front) they are worth a look and a good addition to a collection so I hope that helps

7mmag6 · 07-09-2004, 12:01 AM

Also you may want to talk to dale about mosins from sog he was burned worse than any one ive ever seen on an order

7mmag6 · 07-09-2004, 12:27 AM

so whrilwind you never ran into the sticky bolt problem? I took my new 91/30 out today, and ill be dammed if it didnt have the same problem, shooting wolf ammo none the less, kind of aggravating, if you know what I mean. so ill try the chamber fix again and see if that helps

whirlwind · 07-09-2004, 01:11 AM

yup! sure have. the trouble with mine was that the cocking piece was a bit rough and after a few shots would try to sieze. so i took some high heat nickle anti sieze and applied it on the surface that the cocking piece slid on on the bolt body while cocking and POOF! no more trouble! before i did that it would freeze after just a few rounds bad enough that once i actually had to put the butt on the ground and kick the bolt open! but after that i bet i shot 500 rounds and never had any trouble at all.

7mmag6 · 07-09-2004, 01:31 AM

interesting, it sorta looks like there is several problems with the same symptom, I think the suppliers buy these things in bulk quantities, maybe there is a batch from 1 source that is causing problems like mine are having, possibly re- arsenald from another
armourer or stored differently, something like that, hmmm, interesting, at any rate it sure seems like a lot of folks are having the same problem on the mn forum, the mystery deepens

whirlwind · 07-09-2004, 01:40 AM

well for what its worth my 91 is all matching numbers. but it was a finish capture during their war with russia. so i dont know what all they did to em but the roughness on my bolt just looks like excessive wear to me. but ya never know? im just glad i got it fixed so i can shoot the thing without wanting to chuck it in the creek! lol

7mmag6 · 07-09-2004, 01:50 AM

both of mine have matching bolts also, I cant find hardly any wear on either one, the follower on the 91 doesnt look like its hardly ever been used, maybe that century stencil has something to do with it, Ive never really had very good luck with them, but then again i think sog stinks, the rudest dang people ive ever dealt with

JAMES · 07-09-2004, 07:31 AM

"several problems with the same symptom". I think you are right about that, 7mmag6

The bolt heads on the Mosins vary in length, from what I have seen. I don't know if that was "Russian design" or if it was simply a "wide tolerance" production issue. In any event, a particular rifle can simply have no appreciable headspace and will not be able to cycle rounds. Swapping bolt heads can fix that problem if you happen to have a shorter head available (a spare one or one off another rifle).

SilverRun · 07-09-2004, 04:32 PM

Thanks for the info guys.

7mmag6 · 07-10-2004, 01:02 AM

lets see let me recap
1.laquered ammo 1 possibility
2. cosmo contamination in the chamber
3, bolt lubrication problem
4.bolt head tolerance

I think Ill mic the bolt heads of both rifles, just for fun and compare them to spec, also the neck od and length of the cz ammo before and after discharge, the id of the chambers,, I was thinking of a little lube on the brass, but that might be a little dangerous, ill post back with what I find, james do you have any idea of the tolerance range you are talking about?

7mmag6 · 07-10-2004, 01:35 AM

well the bolt head od of the 31 mics at .0650 mils, and the bolt body at .0649 mils, the 44 head od is .0653mils and the bolt body at .0656mils, that kind of makes sense, the bolt of the 44 is a bit balky, thats a deviation of .007mils between bolt bodies its getting a bit late I need to dig around for an inside mic long enough to reach the chamber, and ill mic the bolt head lengths manana, just had to make 1 more observation, the mating face of the 31s bolt head is clearly mushroomed on 1 side

7mmag6 · 07-10-2004, 01:52 AM

yeah mics at .0654, I see some wear patterns right on that lip

whirlwind · 07-10-2004, 02:10 AM

"wear patterns on the lip".....that statement reminds me of my ex wife! :uzi:

PAPA G · 07-10-2004, 09:48 AM

you best better beleive that PVT. Ivan Suminavitch didn't have any problem working that bolt. if the enemy doesn't get him the political officer will

Ricochet · 07-19-2004, 09:31 AM

Yeah, checking headspace is a fine thing to do, but headspace problems aren't going to cause your bolt to stick unless you've got insufficient headspace. Then you'll have trouble closing the bolt, not opening it. The Mosins are notorious for sticky bolt opening with steel cased ammo. On firing, any rifle's chamber momentarily expands a bit with the pressure, and the case along with it. The chamber springs back down to original size when the pressure goes away, and brass, being more elastic than the steel chamber, springs back a little bit more so it fits loosely and is easy to extract. Steel cases are only about as elastic as the chamber and don't spring back more, so they're still a tight fit. Add in a high-friction lacquer coating on the case and a gluey varnished finish of dried-up, baked-on shellac in the chamber, and consider that the Mosin action doesn't have as much extraction camming power as a Mauser and has a shorter bolt handle, and sometimes you're just going to have to pound it open. And if there's a rusty spot or burr in the chamber, you're screwed. The main thing I'd work on is getting that chamber REALLY clean, see if it needs polishing for a burr, scratch or rust, and grease all camming surfaces in that bolt and the locking lugs with automotive grease. (That's what the Russians did.) As for headspace, if you've got one of the postwar rearsenal jobs, it's been done. In service the Russians considered the bolts interchangeable, though, and routinely dumped all the bolts in a bucket of gasoline and oil mix together, then grabbed out the first one they came to and used it. That's why the older non-rearsenalled ones seldom have matching bolts.

Ricochet · 07-19-2004, 09:35 AM

Oh yeah: Why does the bolt get stickier the more shots you fire? The chamber's getting hot. If you wait around a few seconds after chambering a round, it gets hot, too. The pressure goes up. Soviet bloc ammo must be loaded pretty hot to achieve the ballistics it does. Their climate's cold, and when we shoot it in hot summer weather in a hot rifle it's pushing the pressure on up.

The copper-washed cases aren't as sticky as the lacquered ones.

allan1898 · 07-20-2004, 07:20 PM

I think that Ricochet's remarks are right on. I have a 91, 3-91/30s, 2-38s, 3-39s, and 3-44s, and they all do the same thing. 9 of these rifles are not re-arsenaled. Incidently, my SVT 40 wouldn't cycle the Czech at all, but jammed half open, failing to extract, so I think this was a problem with the lacquer on the case. But thorough cleaning of the chambers and application of grease on the camming surfaces helped all. By the way, head space gauges are available from Brownell's for about $20. You usually only need the no-go.

07-08-2004, 11:15 PM	#23
whirlwind Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: oklahoma Posts: 3,737 Images: 1	when i first got both of mine they both shot about 3 to 4 MOA. ive been focused on the elder of the two for a while now,and after alot of tweeking i have shot 1MOA but that was with some bulets that are no longer readily available. now with my reloads i am getting about 1.5 to 2 MOA outa it. im really pretty pleased with it! although even with a 12x scope on it it will not even come close to out shooting my swedish mauser with iron sights! i love da swede but the mosin's are just a heck of alot of fun! oh...mine are m-91 and a m-91/30 __________________ De oppresso liber !

07-09-2004, 01:11 AM	#27
whirlwind Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: oklahoma Posts: 3,737 Images: 1	yup! sure have. the trouble with mine was that the cocking piece was a bit rough and after a few shots would try to sieze. so i took some high heat nickle anti sieze and applied it on the surface that the cocking piece slid on on the bolt body while cocking and POOF! no more trouble! before i did that it would freeze after just a few rounds bad enough that once i actually had to put the butt on the ground and kick the bolt open! but after that i bet i shot 500 rounds and never had any trouble at all. __________________ De oppresso liber !

07-09-2004, 01:40 AM	#29
whirlwind Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: oklahoma Posts: 3,737 Images: 1	well for what its worth my 91 is all matching numbers. but it was a finish capture during their war with russia. so i dont know what all they did to em but the roughness on my bolt just looks like excessive wear to me. but ya never know? im just glad i got it fixed so i can shoot the thing without wanting to chuck it in the creek! lol __________________ De oppresso liber !

07-10-2004, 01:35 AM	#34
7mmag6 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 337 Images: 1	well the bolt head od of the 31 mics at .0650 mils, and the bolt body at .0649 mils, the 44 head od is .0653mils and the bolt body at .0656mils, that kind of makes sense, the bolt of the 44 is a bit balky, thats a deviation of .007mils between bolt bodies its getting a bit late I need to dig around for an inside mic long enough to reach the chamber, and ill mic the bolt head lengths manana, just had to make 1 more observation, the mating face of the 31s bolt head is clearly mushroomed on 1 side Last edited by 7mmag6; 07-10-2004 at 01:46 AM.

07-10-2004, 02:10 AM	#36
whirlwind Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: oklahoma Posts: 3,737 Images: 1	"wear patterns on the lip".....that statement reminds me of my ex wife! :uzi: __________________ De oppresso liber !

07-08-2004, 07:58 PM	#21
SilverRun Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: AL Posts: 1,661	Well now that the problem seems to be solved, my I attempt to change the subject a bit. What kind of accuracy are you getting with the Nagant? I have looked at these rifles in the past, but have always passed on them? Any thoughts on the general quality of these rifles?

07-08-2004, 08:00 PM	#22
SilverRun Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: AL Posts: 1,661	Sorry, the above post should have read as follows - too much beer! Well now that the problem seems to be solved, may I attempt to change the subject a bit. What kind of accuracy are you getting with the Nagant? I have looked at these rifles in the past, but have always passed on them? Any thoughts on the general quality of these rifles?

07-08-2004, 11:39 PM	#24
7mmag6 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 337 Images: 1	HI silver, I have not reallly shot mine very seriously yet, Im still working out the kinks with it, some of the other guys probably know better than I, but to answer your question as best I can, they are really a well made action as far as I can tell, the stocks are usually excellent, and the supply of mosins are plentiful for now. The safety is really funky on them and it takes 3 men and a small boy to pull the safety into position. I just read in one of the gun mags , ummm I cant remember which one it was, but it was a comparison between a k-98 and a 91/30 and the mosin outshot the 98 big time in every range ( thats what happens when you get old you forget a lot) now where was I oh yes there is a problem with sticky bolts that is from what I can tell universal. read the above and you see 3 different solutions ( the ahem other forum dedicated to mosins is full of the same complaints) and different solutions, but keeping it fastidious and a good proper cleaning seems to be the the way to go. the craftsmanship I think is better than the k-98 ( some people will argue that) there is 3 variants ummm 91/30 the longest barrel, the 44, carbine sized and the 38, which is even shorter, (there is probably more that I dont know about). There are different types such as finnish, but I have no knowledge of them, except Ive heard the finns are excellent rifles. I think they are a real bargain, but its a grab bag you never know what you will get.( Ill tell you one thing for sure, the 44 is really dam loud, and kicks up a flame front) they are worth a look and a good addition to a collection so I hope that helps

07-09-2004, 12:01 AM	#25
7mmag6 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 337 Images: 1	Also you may want to talk to dale about mosins from sog he was burned worse than any one ive ever seen on an order

07-09-2004, 12:27 AM	#26
7mmag6 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 337 Images: 1	so whrilwind you never ran into the sticky bolt problem? I took my new 91/30 out today, and ill be dammed if it didnt have the same problem, shooting wolf ammo none the less, kind of aggravating, if you know what I mean. so ill try the chamber fix again and see if that helps

07-09-2004, 01:31 AM	#28
7mmag6 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 337 Images: 1	interesting, it sorta looks like there is several problems with the same symptom, I think the suppliers buy these things in bulk quantities, maybe there is a batch from 1 source that is causing problems like mine are having, possibly re- arsenald from another armourer or stored differently, something like that, hmmm, interesting, at any rate it sure seems like a lot of folks are having the same problem on the mn forum, the mystery deepens

07-09-2004, 01:50 AM	#30
7mmag6 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 337 Images: 1	both of mine have matching bolts also, I cant find hardly any wear on either one, the follower on the 91 doesnt look like its hardly ever been used, maybe that century stencil has something to do with it, Ive never really had very good luck with them, but then again i think sog stinks, the rudest dang people ive ever dealt with

07-09-2004, 07:31 AM	#31
JAMES Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: OKLAHOMA Posts: 575	"several problems with the same symptom". I think you are right about that, 7mmag6 The bolt heads on the Mosins vary in length, from what I have seen. I don't know if that was "Russian design" or if it was simply a "wide tolerance" production issue. In any event, a particular rifle can simply have no appreciable headspace and will not be able to cycle rounds. Swapping bolt heads can fix that problem if you happen to have a shorter head available (a spare one or one off another rifle).

07-09-2004, 04:32 PM	#32
SilverRun Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: AL Posts: 1,661	Thanks for the info guys.

07-10-2004, 01:02 AM	#33
7mmag6 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 337 Images: 1	lets see let me recap 1.laquered ammo 1 possibility 2. cosmo contamination in the chamber 3, bolt lubrication problem 4.bolt head tolerance I think Ill mic the bolt heads of both rifles, just for fun and compare them to spec, also the neck od and length of the cz ammo before and after discharge, the id of the chambers,, I was thinking of a little lube on the brass, but that might be a little dangerous, ill post back with what I find, james do you have any idea of the tolerance range you are talking about?

07-10-2004, 01:52 AM	#35
7mmag6 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 337 Images: 1	yeah mics at .0654, I see some wear patterns right on that lip

07-10-2004, 09:48 AM	#37
PAPA G Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somerset, kentucky Posts: 12	you best better beleive that PVT. Ivan Suminavitch didn't have any problem working that bolt. if the enemy doesn't get him the political officer will

07-19-2004, 09:31 AM	#38
Ricochet Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Bristol, Tennessee, USA Posts: 166	Yeah, checking headspace is a fine thing to do, but headspace problems aren't going to cause your bolt to stick unless you've got insufficient headspace. Then you'll have trouble closing the bolt, not opening it. The Mosins are notorious for sticky bolt opening with steel cased ammo. On firing, any rifle's chamber momentarily expands a bit with the pressure, and the case along with it. The chamber springs back down to original size when the pressure goes away, and brass, being more elastic than the steel chamber, springs back a little bit more so it fits loosely and is easy to extract. Steel cases are only about as elastic as the chamber and don't spring back more, so they're still a tight fit. Add in a high-friction lacquer coating on the case and a gluey varnished finish of dried-up, baked-on shellac in the chamber, and consider that the Mosin action doesn't have as much extraction camming power as a Mauser and has a shorter bolt handle, and sometimes you're just going to have to pound it open. And if there's a rusty spot or burr in the chamber, you're screwed. The main thing I'd work on is getting that chamber REALLY clean, see if it needs polishing for a burr, scratch or rust, and grease all camming surfaces in that bolt and the locking lugs with automotive grease. (That's what the Russians did.) As for headspace, if you've got one of the postwar rearsenal jobs, it's been done. In service the Russians considered the bolts interchangeable, though, and routinely dumped all the bolts in a bucket of gasoline and oil mix together, then grabbed out the first one they came to and used it. That's why the older non-rearsenalled ones seldom have matching bolts.

07-19-2004, 09:35 AM	#39
Ricochet Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Bristol, Tennessee, USA Posts: 166	Oh yeah: Why does the bolt get stickier the more shots you fire? The chamber's getting hot. If you wait around a few seconds after chambering a round, it gets hot, too. The pressure goes up. Soviet bloc ammo must be loaded pretty hot to achieve the ballistics it does. Their climate's cold, and when we shoot it in hot summer weather in a hot rifle it's pushing the pressure on up. The copper-washed cases aren't as sticky as the lacquered ones.

07-20-2004, 07:20 PM	#40
allan1898 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 110	I think that Ricochet's remarks are right on. I have a 91, 3-91/30s, 2-38s, 3-39s, and 3-44s, and they all do the same thing. 9 of these rifles are not re-arsenaled. Incidently, my SVT 40 wouldn't cycle the Czech at all, but jammed half open, failing to extract, so I think this was a problem with the lacquer on the case. But thorough cleaning of the chambers and application of grease on the camming surfaces helped all. By the way, head space gauges are available from Brownell's for about $20. You usually only need the no-go.