I think My M27 is actually a M28

MosinDave · 03-29-2006, 06:11 PM

Well, after alot of extensive research I have come to the conclusion that I think CAI must have mislabeled my rifle when they imported it, because everything I have read tells me this is an M28 and NOT an M27.
For starters, the marking on the barrel. It is a SIG barrel, in fact a FIRST production run SIG barrel ( called a Type 1 SIG barrel, supposed to be one of the rarest M28 barrels) and the SAKO factory markings on these are supposed to be very feint. ( see pics in my previous post, you can hardly see the stamp on the barrel above the serial number. )
Secondly, the front barrel band isn't hinged on mine like the M27's. It's the solid 2 piece front cap. ( was made solid due to weakness of hinged band during bayonet training.. one of the improvements featured in the M28 )
Also, the rear sight on this rifle doesn't look like the ones they had on the M27 ( of all the pics I have seen so far ), but I have seen it on quite a few M28's that I have come across.
So, what do ya think? Think I might have stumbled onto a mismarked M28, and is this better from a collectors standpoint?
Any and all feedback is welcomed!

edit: I just found out that the M28's front sight adjustment screw was put in front of the sight... The M27's was behind it.... My screw is in front of the sight... I guess that settles it! I have a Mismarked M28! LoL:right:

MosinDave · 03-29-2006, 06:46 PM

Found some good info from Mosin Nagant.net about the M28 SIG barrels that some of ya might find useful. The underlined section explains why I could not find a year stamp ANYWHERE on the gun.

Directly from Mosin Nagant.net

"Type 1 SIG barrel:
There are two versions of the SIG barrel markings. This first version is extremely scarce. It has a variation of the SAKO gear wheel logo with a fir sprigged “S” inside it. This marking appears often times to be double stamped as many are very faint or poorly stamped and corrections were attempted. These early marked rifles have very low serial numbers most reported are under 900. Some of these early barrels apparently were assembled at a later time as one example is reported at o8936. All of these barrels have the small “o” as a prefix. It appears more like an “open dot” on the barrel rather than an “o”. The serial numbers of these rifles are stamped on the barrel top rather than on the side as in all later versions. No other stamping marks are found on the underside of the barrel like the boxed year designation. These barrels and markings evidently are the first barrels assembled at SAKO in Riihimaki and an attempt was made to identify them as such. This possibly explains the poorly stamped logo on the barrel shank. It is very possible these logos were hand stamped. The SIG logo is located on the right side of the barrel below the wood line as this location was dictated in the contract. The marking is in script and reads Schweizerische Industrie-Gessellschaft, Neuhausen. It may be that these barrels manufactured by SIG were either blanks and completed later at SAKO or spares that were unmarked at SIG. Another explanation may be that these barrels were not useable due to the improper rifling cuts of the early barels and were later modified by SAKo to be accpetable. Thus a marking was added denoting SAKO and the low serial numbers indicating to the author at least that these barrels were the very first production of the run."
Type 1 SIG marking on my M28

troy2000 · 03-29-2006, 10:15 PM

I'm having fun just reading about it; I can imagine how much you're having researching it.

Mooseman684 · 03-29-2006, 11:57 PM

Does it look close to what my m28 looks like ? Mine does not have the Gear mark but has the SY mark and A SIG Barrel ! go to...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/moosema...uns/108269182/
Also have you looked at :http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinMarks02.htm
Rich

MosinDave · 03-30-2006, 01:36 AM

There were 2 variations of the SIG barrels. The Type 1 is what I have, the Type 2 is the other designation like yours Moose. Check this link for further info.
http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/M28-Rifle.asp
Scroll about 3/4 of the way down and it has the article about the different barrels that came on the M28, and their various applications.
After reading everything from multiple Finn Mosin sites on the internet, and browsing too many photos of each I have concluded that this indeed is an M28... with the CAI stamp on the barrel that says it's an M27!! LoL

I've even ruled out the possibility of it being a 27 in a 28 stock by researching the front sight post... The M27 had the adjustment screw behind the sight post... the M28 should have it in front of it, and mine is in front of it... M28 it is!! :right:

Something else I found interesting about it is the bolt. It's a Westinghouse bolt and cocking piece, with an Izzy extractor.. all force matched by the arsenal because they all have another stamp that matches up!
These Finn rifles are alot of fun to research... kinda like putting together a jigsaw puzzle!

Edit: Something else that proves it's not an M27 is the fact that it has a SAKO stamp... from what I have researched so far SAKO didn't put out any M27's... should have only been VKT and Tikka arsenals.

MosinDave · 03-30-2006, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troy2000

I'm having fun just reading about it; I can imagine how much you're having researching it.

Glad you're having fun reading all the technobabble I'm finding. It's been a blast for me! I can hardly wait to get another Finn so I can do this scavenger hunt for info all over again :nod:

MosinDave · 03-30-2006, 02:10 AM

Oh, one last tidbit. I have a really nice link that compliments the one Mooseman put up.
http://www.mosinnagant.net/USSR/mosi...t_markings.asp
Got a few more markings that 7.62X54R.net didn't have posted.
Yea I triple posted, but I'm on a roll right now!:cheer:

Mooseman684 · 03-30-2006, 10:17 AM

Yessir, I am still finding out stuff about my rifle Too ! Did you pull the action and Find the year and arsenal mark under the rear tang? Most are pre-1900 actions ! My rifle has the little o infront of the 4 digit serial # and I am still trying to find out which Civil Guard unit had it and where it was in Finland.
These Rifles sure have History !
Rich

MosinDave · 03-30-2006, 11:35 PM

You aren't kidding about the history these rifles have Rich! I did pull the entire thing apart the day I got it ( mostly to inspect the action and clean off the GOBS of cosmo it had stuck on it ), and I think it said it was a 1917 reciever. Looked like 917 and then I saw what looked to be a VERY feint 1 in front of the 9 so I'm guessing that's what this is. As for the arsenal markings I don't remember.. I'll have to pull it down again and see what I can find.
Have you taken your M28 to the range yet, and if so how did it shoot? I'm not gonna get a chance to shoot mine til this Sunday, and I'll bring my camera to log how well it does and post some pics up. My barrel has a lil bit of pitting here and there, but it's nothing a few dozen rounds can't clean out!:full:

Mooseman684 · 03-31-2006, 12:09 AM

No, I havent had time to shoot it yet, It has been too cold here to do much !
I pulled the gun Apart and found a 27 Year stamp under my barrel, and some of the stuff on the net doesn't add up to my gun ! My Rear sight has not been altered like yours has and Mine has an 8 stamped in the left finger groove and an 88 stamped on the Buttplate But no SYT stamp.
My serial # o1718 indicates it to be a first production rifle like yours but I dont have Dual Sling Slots in the Rear of the stock!
Mine has a German Capture stamp and another round stamp partially over that! I have the SA stamp for Army acceptance From the Civil Guard !
My SIG Barrel looks in pretty good shape, and I found a Marathon industries Stamp on the front of the Barrel but it is very light importer stamp.
Oh if this rifle could talk ! I am still trying to find where/ which Civil Guard Unit Had this one...It is s115515. Haven't found it yet !
Rich

troy2000 · 03-31-2006, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MosinDave

You aren't kidding about the history these rifles have Rich! I did pull the entire thing apart the day I got it ( mostly to inspect the action and clean off the GOBS of cosmo it had stuck on it ), and I think it said it was a 1917 reciever. Looked like 917 and then I saw what looked to be a VERY feint 1 in front of the 9 so I'm guessing that's what this is. As for the arsenal markings I don't remember.. I'll have to pull it down again and see what I can find.
Have you taken your M28 to the range yet, and if so how did it shoot? I'm not gonna get a chance to shoot mine til this Sunday, and I'll bring my camera to log how well it does and post some pics up. My barrel has a lil bit of pitting here and there, but it's nothing a few dozen rounds can't clean out!:full:

So your date of manufacture was probably September (ninth month) of 1917.

Mooseman684 · 03-31-2006, 12:23 AM

Go here and see which mark it looks like...They Mostly stamped years, not months ,Some were after 1900!...http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinMarks01.htm
Rich

troy2000 · 03-31-2006, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mooseman684

Go here and see which mark it looks like...They only stamped years, not months !...http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinMarks01.htm
Rich

I'll see if I can find the place again where I found that about the three-numbered stamps. My son's Peter the Great tula only has three numbers also.

troy2000 · 03-31-2006, 12:44 AM

Not the one I was thinking of:

http://www.geocities.com/hiker1250/mosin_receiver.html

According to it, though, only pre-1900 stamps had month/year, while those in the 1900's had two, three or four numbers that always meant year. So Dave's would be strictly year, as you said.

I'll keep looking...

Mooseman684 · 03-31-2006, 12:48 AM

I stand Corrected...Most were year stamped !Some after 1900 were 3 digit with the month.

MosinDave · 03-31-2006, 12:50 AM

That is strange, as mine doesn't have the double sling slots either, and my serial # is o182!! But my stocks number matches the barrel, as I took the buttplate off of it to check, so I am pretty sure it wasn't put into a new stock unless they renumbered it to match the rifle.... which is doubtful.
Mine doesn't have any SA stamps on it, which I'm guessing means that it stayed with the civil guard?
Something else I noticed that it is lacking is any markings or stamps on the wood. Now, the stock is pretty worn and beaten up in a couple of spots, so that might have something to do with me not being able to find anything so far. I might just have to keep looking.
I wish my rifle could talk as well, because I want to know what made those huge gouges in the front portion of the stock! Looks like someone beat it hard as !@#$% against something, and who or whatever was on the recieving end I'm sure wasn't happy!

Mooseman684 · 03-31-2006, 12:52 AM

Did you look at the stamps ? which receiver do you have ?

MosinDave · 03-31-2006, 12:58 AM

Well, my reciever was made in 1917, but the rifle was assembled Sometime around 1928. Nice site Troy, I will keep it bookmarked for the future when I will need it again. I guess my eyes were playin tricks on me seein the 1 in front of the 917. I took her down a few minutes ago and found that I have a Tula receiver! In 11 years this receiver will be 100 years old, how cool is that?

Mooseman684 · 03-31-2006, 01:09 AM

According to the Net..any thing ending in an "R "means Year of God !
Glad to hear you have a Tula as well...Did you find a Blackpowder Proof mark ?
You must have the Tula Hammer !

MosinDave · 03-31-2006, 01:15 AM

Nope, not yet that I have narrowed down to a definite mark like the D on yours.
I have an R on the adjustable part of the rear sight, and an X on the sight's base. Do those mean anything about the ammo designation?
You happen to have a good link to the different ammo designations for the different barrels?

03-29-2006, 06:11 PM	#1
MosinDave Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Georgia Posts: 571 Trader Rating: (0)	I think My M27 is actually a M28 Well, after alot of extensive research I have come to the conclusion that I think CAI must have mislabeled my rifle when they imported it, because everything I have read tells me this is an M28 and NOT an M27. For starters, the marking on the barrel. It is a SIG barrel, in fact a FIRST production run SIG barrel ( called a Type 1 SIG barrel, supposed to be one of the rarest M28 barrels) and the SAKO factory markings on these are supposed to be very feint. ( see pics in my previous post, you can hardly see the stamp on the barrel above the serial number. ) Secondly, the front barrel band isn't hinged on mine like the M27's. It's the solid 2 piece front cap. ( was made solid due to weakness of hinged band during bayonet training.. one of the improvements featured in the M28 ) Also, the rear sight on this rifle doesn't look like the ones they had on the M27 ( of all the pics I have seen so far ), but I have seen it on quite a few M28's that I have come across. So, what do ya think? Think I might have stumbled onto a mismarked M28, and is this better from a collectors standpoint? Any and all feedback is welcomed! edit: I just found out that the M28's front sight adjustment screw was put in front of the sight... The M27's was behind it.... My screw is in front of the sight... I guess that settles it! I have a Mismarked M28! LoL:right: Last edited by MosinDave; 03-29-2006 at 06:25 PM.

03-29-2006, 06:46 PM	#2
MosinDave Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Georgia Posts: 571 Trader Rating: (0)	Some info on Type 1 SIG barrels Found some good info from Mosin Nagant.net about the M28 SIG barrels that some of ya might find useful. The underlined section explains why I could not find a year stamp ANYWHERE on the gun. Directly from Mosin Nagant.net "Type 1 SIG barrel: There are two versions of the SIG barrel markings. This first version is extremely scarce. It has a variation of the SAKO gear wheel logo with a fir sprigged “S” inside it. This marking appears often times to be double stamped as many are very faint or poorly stamped and corrections were attempted. These early marked rifles have very low serial numbers most reported are under 900. Some of these early barrels apparently were assembled at a later time as one example is reported at o8936. All of these barrels have the small “o” as a prefix. It appears more like an “open dot” on the barrel rather than an “o”. The serial numbers of these rifles are stamped on the barrel top rather than on the side as in all later versions. No other stamping marks are found on the underside of the barrel like the boxed year designation. These barrels and markings evidently are the first barrels assembled at SAKO in Riihimaki and an attempt was made to identify them as such. This possibly explains the poorly stamped logo on the barrel shank. It is very possible these logos were hand stamped. The SIG logo is located on the right side of the barrel below the wood line as this location was dictated in the contract. The marking is in script and reads Schweizerische Industrie-Gessellschaft, Neuhausen. It may be that these barrels manufactured by SIG were either blanks and completed later at SAKO or spares that were unmarked at SIG. Another explanation may be that these barrels were not useable due to the improper rifling cuts of the early barels and were later modified by SAKo to be accpetable. Thus a marking was added denoting SAKO and the low serial numbers indicating to the author at least that these barrels were the very first production of the run." Type 1 SIG marking on my M28 Last edited by MosinDave; 03-29-2006 at 06:52 PM.

03-29-2006, 11:57 PM	#4
Mooseman684 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Alaska Wilderness Posts: 9,198 Trader Rating: (0)	Does it look close to what my m28 looks like ? Mine does not have the Gear mark but has the SY mark and A SIG Barrel ! go to... http://www.flickr.com/photos/moosema...uns/108269182/ Also have you looked at :http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinMarks02.htm Rich __________________ You know you might be facing your doom,when all you get is a click when you're expecting a BOOM! Last edited by Mooseman684; 03-30-2006 at 01:13 AM.

03-30-2006, 01:36 AM	#5
MosinDave Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Georgia Posts: 571 Trader Rating: (0)	There were 2 variations of the SIG barrels. The Type 1 is what I have, the Type 2 is the other designation like yours Moose. Check this link for further info. http://www.mosinnagant.net/finland/M28-Rifle.asp Scroll about 3/4 of the way down and it has the article about the different barrels that came on the M28, and their various applications. After reading everything from multiple Finn Mosin sites on the internet, and browsing too many photos of each I have concluded that this indeed is an M28... with the CAI stamp on the barrel that says it's an M27!! LoL I've even ruled out the possibility of it being a 27 in a 28 stock by researching the front sight post... The M27 had the adjustment screw behind the sight post... the M28 should have it in front of it, and mine is in front of it... M28 it is!! :right: Something else I found interesting about it is the bolt. It's a Westinghouse bolt and cocking piece, with an Izzy extractor.. all force matched by the arsenal because they all have another stamp that matches up! These Finn rifles are alot of fun to research... kinda like putting together a jigsaw puzzle! Edit: Something else that proves it's not an M27 is the fact that it has a SAKO stamp... from what I have researched so far SAKO didn't put out any M27's... should have only been VKT and Tikka arsenals. Last edited by MosinDave; 03-30-2006 at 01:53 AM.

03-30-2006, 10:17 AM	#8
Mooseman684 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Alaska Wilderness Posts: 9,198 Trader Rating: (0)	Yessir, I am still finding out stuff about my rifle Too ! Did you pull the action and Find the year and arsenal mark under the rear tang? Most are pre-1900 actions ! My rifle has the little o infront of the 4 digit serial # and I am still trying to find out which Civil Guard unit had it and where it was in Finland. These Rifles sure have History ! Rich __________________ You know you might be facing your doom,when all you get is a click when you're expecting a BOOM!

03-29-2006, 10:15 PM	#3
troy2000 Resident Armed Liberal Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Southern California Posts: 8,909 Trader Rating: (0)	I'm having fun just reading about it; I can imagine how much you're having researching it.

03-30-2006, 02:10 AM	#7
MosinDave Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Georgia Posts: 571 Trader Rating: (0)	Oh, one last tidbit. I have a really nice link that compliments the one Mooseman put up. http://www.mosinnagant.net/USSR/mosi...t_markings.asp Got a few more markings that 7.62X54R.net didn't have posted. Yea I triple posted, but I'm on a roll right now!:cheer:

03-30-2006, 11:35 PM	#9
MosinDave Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Georgia Posts: 571 Trader Rating: (0)	You aren't kidding about the history these rifles have Rich! I did pull the entire thing apart the day I got it ( mostly to inspect the action and clean off the GOBS of cosmo it had stuck on it ), and I think it said it was a 1917 reciever. Looked like 917 and then I saw what looked to be a VERY feint 1 in front of the 9 so I'm guessing that's what this is. As for the arsenal markings I don't remember.. I'll have to pull it down again and see what I can find. Have you taken your M28 to the range yet, and if so how did it shoot? I'm not gonna get a chance to shoot mine til this Sunday, and I'll bring my camera to log how well it does and post some pics up. My barrel has a lil bit of pitting here and there, but it's nothing a few dozen rounds can't clean out!:full:

03-31-2006, 12:09 AM	#10
Mooseman684 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Alaska Wilderness Posts: 9,198 Trader Rating: (0)	No, I havent had time to shoot it yet, It has been too cold here to do much ! I pulled the gun Apart and found a 27 Year stamp under my barrel, and some of the stuff on the net doesn't add up to my gun ! My Rear sight has not been altered like yours has and Mine has an 8 stamped in the left finger groove and an 88 stamped on the Buttplate But no SYT stamp. My serial # o1718 indicates it to be a first production rifle like yours but I dont have Dual Sling Slots in the Rear of the stock! Mine has a German Capture stamp and another round stamp partially over that! I have the SA stamp for Army acceptance From the Civil Guard ! My SIG Barrel looks in pretty good shape, and I found a Marathon industries Stamp on the front of the Barrel but it is very light importer stamp. Oh if this rifle could talk ! I am still trying to find where/ which Civil Guard Unit Had this one...It is s115515. Haven't found it yet ! Rich __________________ You know you might be facing your doom,when all you get is a click when you're expecting a BOOM!

03-31-2006, 12:23 AM	#12
Mooseman684 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Alaska Wilderness Posts: 9,198 Trader Rating: (0)	Go here and see which mark it looks like...They Mostly stamped years, not months ,Some were after 1900!...http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinMarks01.htm Rich __________________ You know you might be facing your doom,when all you get is a click when you're expecting a BOOM! Last edited by Mooseman684; 03-31-2006 at 12:44 AM.

03-31-2006, 12:44 AM	#14
troy2000 Resident Armed Liberal Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Southern California Posts: 8,909 Trader Rating: (0)	Here's one site Not the one I was thinking of: http://www.geocities.com/hiker1250/mosin_receiver.html According to it, though, only pre-1900 stamps had month/year, while those in the 1900's had two, three or four numbers that always meant year. So Dave's would be strictly year, as you said. I'll keep looking... Last edited by troy2000; 03-31-2006 at 01:02 AM.

03-31-2006, 12:48 AM	#15
Mooseman684 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Alaska Wilderness Posts: 9,198 Trader Rating: (0)	I stand Corrected...Most were year stamped !Some after 1900 were 3 digit with the month. __________________ You know you might be facing your doom,when all you get is a click when you're expecting a BOOM!

03-31-2006, 12:50 AM	#16
MosinDave Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Georgia Posts: 571 Trader Rating: (0)	That is strange, as mine doesn't have the double sling slots either, and my serial # is o182!! But my stocks number matches the barrel, as I took the buttplate off of it to check, so I am pretty sure it wasn't put into a new stock unless they renumbered it to match the rifle.... which is doubtful. Mine doesn't have any SA stamps on it, which I'm guessing means that it stayed with the civil guard? Something else I noticed that it is lacking is any markings or stamps on the wood. Now, the stock is pretty worn and beaten up in a couple of spots, so that might have something to do with me not being able to find anything so far. I might just have to keep looking. I wish my rifle could talk as well, because I want to know what made those huge gouges in the front portion of the stock! Looks like someone beat it hard as !@#$% against something, and who or whatever was on the recieving end I'm sure wasn't happy!

03-31-2006, 12:52 AM	#17
Mooseman684 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Alaska Wilderness Posts: 9,198 Trader Rating: (0)	Did you look at the stamps ? which receiver do you have ? __________________ You know you might be facing your doom,when all you get is a click when you're expecting a BOOM!

03-31-2006, 12:58 AM	#18
MosinDave Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Georgia Posts: 571 Trader Rating: (0)	Well, my reciever was made in 1917, but the rifle was assembled Sometime around 1928. Nice site Troy, I will keep it bookmarked for the future when I will need it again. I guess my eyes were playin tricks on me seein the 1 in front of the 917. I took her down a few minutes ago and found that I have a Tula receiver! In 11 years this receiver will be 100 years old, how cool is that? Last edited by MosinDave; 03-31-2006 at 01:00 AM.

03-31-2006, 01:09 AM	#19
Mooseman684 Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Alaska Wilderness Posts: 9,198 Trader Rating: (0)	According to the Net..any thing ending in an "R "means Year of God ! Glad to hear you have a Tula as well...Did you find a Blackpowder Proof mark ? You must have the Tula Hammer ! __________________ You know you might be facing your doom,when all you get is a click when you're expecting a BOOM! Last edited by Mooseman684; 03-31-2006 at 01:18 AM.

03-31-2006, 01:15 AM	#20
MosinDave Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Georgia Posts: 571 Trader Rating: (0)	Nope, not yet that I have narrowed down to a definite mark like the D on yours. I have an R on the adjustable part of the rear sight, and an X on the sight's base. Do those mean anything about the ammo designation? You happen to have a good link to the different ammo designations for the different barrels?