Military Surplus Ammunition

just_a_car · 11-14-2006, 07:19 PM

Alright, so I figured I'd start a thread for just us Mosin guys (and gals, if there are any here) regarding the many varied experiences with Mil-Surp ammo.

Today I had the distinct pleasure of receiving a 56 lb. green box from the FedEx lady. Was rather odd that I had randomly chosen to wear my forest camo pants today, but I digress. This rather hefty wood box was labeled "7,62-59"; now, I realized that the comma is what is used in other countries instead of the period, but the 59 worried the crap out of me. I opened up the box latch and there, on the glavanized metal was ink-stenciled the same thing, along with the many other symbols that were also on the outside. I was at first thinking that I had received the wrong ammunition (which was supposed to be Czech silver tip, by the way, from J&G), so onto the intar-web I went to research what this was before opening it. I found another forum where a guy had the same experience back in 2003 and found his to be 7.62x54R Czech silver tip. The guys on the forum were all thinking that maybe the 59 was year of manufacture, even though on his and my ammo, the headstamp says "68" and "bxn". Anyways, I felt confident enough that his box sounded almost identical that I was safe.

Now, the guy did mention that he had a tough time opening it and that he wasn't in the least a weak guy. He even mentioned that it was soldered.

He was right.

They used copious amounts of solder to seal the galvanized metal plate that covered the top of this metal box that fit VERY snugly in the wood crate. The two, two-ring handles in the corners on one side were absolutely useless in aiding opening and only slightly more helpful in removing the metal box from the wood one, which I did to access the sides of the top lid and the solder that held it.

Well, I wasn't going to try to brute-force this stuff as it was very thick, half an inch in some places. I grabbed a chisel and hammer and went to work, more than once cutting into the galvanized metal box and lid and having to readjust my angle. This took about 20 minutes to get three sides open so that I could pry the lid up and reveal the nice sky-blue boxes of 7.62x54R Czech silver tip, laquered ammo. Now, some of you may be thinking "hey, it's solder man! Just heat it up with a blowtorch and melt it off!" and to that, I say, go right ahead. I'll put you in for the Darwin award. Not only is it rather silly to bring flame to any amount of ammo, but especially moronic to do so to 800 rounds of it that are contained in a metal container. Oh, and did I mention GALVANIZED?... Yeah, as my father so well-put, using a torch on galvanized anything without an air-line respirator is asking to die. He worked on a galvanized metal for a while (I believe an exhaust system) and by the end was having to consciously work hard to take even the most meager of breaths. Galvanization and flame... dont do it!

So, there ya go guys, my first experience with Military Surplus Ammunition. I'm really itchin' to get to the range with the stuff, as the 80 Polish rounds that I used seen here, worked rather well. They were quite accurate for what little experience I have. There were no misfires and only one failed to fully extract and I think that was because I didn't pull the bolt back quickly enough; it came back and just sat in the middle of the receiver.

MosinDave · 11-14-2006, 08:42 PM

Awesome! The silver tip stuff is top notch for mil surp ammo. Having the round not fully eject happens to me sometimes too, but only when I don't yank the handle back fast enough. As soon as I get paid again I am planning on getting a spam can or two of that stuff, or some Hungarian light ball.

NRAJOE · 11-14-2006, 09:30 PM

When I bought my 880 rd case of Czech Silvertip all I had to do was pull those rings with a pair of sturdy pliers and it zipped right open.

Silvertip rocks...almost as much fun as the 44gr Czech practice ammo.

troy2000 · 11-14-2006, 10:00 PM

...two giant, green spam cans in a wooden crate. I pried the crate lid off in the carport I use for a workshop sometimes, and carefully set the lid on a shelf unit, nails down (pure habit from my years in construction-never leave nails pointing up).

I dug one of the cans out, and went thru some heroics with a hammer knocking the solder joint loose at one end. Then I said the heck with it, and tackled the rest of the lip with a 4-inch sidewheel grinder. Worked great.

A couple of months later I was getting ready to open the second can. My shepherd and boxer/pit were all excited that I had come out to play with them, and bumped the shelf unit. The wooden crate lid fell onto the floor nails up, I picked it up, and lo and behold: there was a giant, old-fashioned can opener nailed to the inside of the lid. Imagine my surprise...

It works even better than the grinder did, and I feel just a wee bit stupid.

Big Dog · 11-15-2006, 04:12 AM

Troy, I had the same experience - found the danged can opener AFTER chiseling the things open!

My can of Silvertip was much the same as mentioned earlier - the rings pulled off without opening the can! No sweat - a little work with hammer and chisel to open a corner, then my trusty tin snips - opened her right up!

Wonder how Ivan did it in the field? Fixed bayonets? Handaxe? Maybe shot the danged things open . . .

just_a_car · 11-15-2006, 10:33 PM

Well, took 40 of the Czech silver tips to the range today. Out of those 40, 5 failed to extract and 1 got stuck but extracted with a good upward slam on the bolt. I had use my cleaning rod to pop the failed extractions out. I was rather disappointed, since I was under the understanding that the laquered rounds didn't stick in a properly cleaned chamber.

I never had this problem with the 80 rounds of Polish copper-wash I ran through.

Fortunately, not a single misfire, but it sure is a pain in the butt to have to drop the magazine plate, empty the rounds, step back from the line, pop the case out, reload and continue firing. Maybe it's just me, but having to do that more than once in the same 5 rounds is just not right.

I cleaned my cosmoline out what I thought was very well with mineral spirits and have cleaned the gun itself multiple times, soapy water for the corrosive salts and Hoppes No. 9 solvent and oil. A good scrub with the plastic bristle brush with the soap, then the solvent, then patches with solvent till only blue copper fouling showing. After that, a light oiling with a patch.

Is there something I'm doing wrong that would make it so that these would stick?

I'm considering sticking with only copper-wash Mil-Surp if I can't get this stuff extracting properly.

Zen900 · 11-15-2006, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by just_a_car

Well, took 40 of the Czech silver tips to the range today. Out of those 40, 5 failed to extract and 1 got stuck but extracted with a good upward slam on the bolt. I had use my cleaning rod to pop the failed extractions out. I was rather disappointed, since I was under the understanding that the laquered rounds didn't stick

Is there something I'm doing wrong that would make it so that these would stick?

I had this happen once and never used lacquered again. I wondered if the lacquer got hot and sticky in some chambers that have close tolerences. For instance my SKS loves lacquered but not my Stevens model 200 in 30-06. The 1st 5-7 extract fine but once the chamber gets hot the lacquered sticks in the Stevens. Dunno if that's true, just my guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Dog

Wonder how Ivan did it in the field? Fixed bayonets? Handaxe? Maybe shot the danged things open . . .

If you remember Barbarosa. The Nazis invaded rapidly into Russia all the way to Stalingrad unimpeded then the Ruskies finally got their ammo cans open and pushed the Nazis all the way back to Berlin.

FeLiX · 11-16-2006, 08:39 AM

Collecting and Shooting the Military Surplus Rifle (2006) - Surplusrifle.com

this might help.....

MosinDave · 11-16-2006, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zen900

If you remember Barbarosa. The Nazis invaded rapidly into Russia all the way to Stalingrad unimpeded then the Ruskies finally got their ammo cans open and pushed the Nazis all the way back to Berlin.

swabjocky · 11-16-2006, 10:19 AM

If you try the blowtorch method for opening the ammo box, make sure you put me down as sole beneficiary on your life insurance.

Dale · 11-16-2006, 01:12 PM

In the spirit of free enterprise it's nice to see the internet customers are keeping the anti-Constitution nut people at J&G going because us locals won't.

just_a_car · 11-16-2006, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale

In the spirit of free enterprise it's nice to see the internet customers are keeping the anti-Constitution nut people at J&G going because us locals won't.

Have you brought this up in the political forums, Dale? If so, can you link to it so that I can read up on what you're talking about? Thanks. :-)

SPOCAHP ANAR · 11-16-2006, 04:16 PM

Probably gonna order some nagant soon. Which one ISN'T the lacquer coated ammo, and how much and where?

MosinDave · 11-16-2006, 06:36 PM

The Czech Silver tips are the only rounds I have shot so far that are laquer coated, but I'm sure there are others out there. The Albanian, and Polish stuff I usually shoot is not and they cycle very easily in all of my Mosins. I would say the Albanian surplus stuff is the easiest stuff to shoot, as it is all brass cased and doesn't adhere to the chamber walls like the steel cased stuff does, but the Polish stuff feels hotter to me and is more fun to shoot ( one of my M91's has a fairly large chamber and the steel cased stuff is hard to extract on occasion ). I just ordered a span can from Sportsman's Guide of the Hungarian heavy ball ( was around $38 for 440 rds )and I will let ya know how that stuff works out when it gets here. It didn't appear to be laquered from the pics I saw.

just_a_car · 11-17-2006, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPOCAHP ANAR

Probably gonna order some nagant soon. Which one ISN'T the lacquer coated ammo, and how much and where?

Easiest way to tell is to compare it to 7.62x54r.net's 7.62x54r Ammunition Evaluations.

Oh, and just in case there was a misunderstanding, don't buy "7.62 Nagant" as you'll get the Nagant pistol ammo seen here that has the bullet flush with the mouth of the case.

Geo M44 · 11-20-2006, 10:31 AM

j-a-c,

I have posted this "sticky bolt trick" for MilSurp ammo before, but it bears repeating in this case:

Before cycling the spent round pull the bolt back to the cocked position and then cycle the bolt. The effort is usually reduced by about 60%-70%. Everyone that has tried this has been amazed at the difference. Much better than bringing a 2 x 4 to the range and beating the !!!! out of the bolt.

Hope this helps make shooting MilSurp more fun.

just_a_car · 11-20-2006, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geo M44

j-a-c,

I have posted this "sticky bolt trick" for MilSurp ammo before, but it bears repeating in this case:

Before cycling the spent round pull the bolt back to the cocked position and then cycle the bolt. The effort is usually reduced by about 60%-70%. Everyone that has tried this has been amazed at the difference. Much better than bringing a 2 x 4 to the range and beating the !!!! out of the bolt.

Hope this helps make shooting MilSurp more fun.

Maybe I'm not fully understanding you, but it sounds like you're saying bring the bolt handle up ot the vertical postition, then back to the horizontal position, then cycle... well, the bolt would go up about to 45 degrees and stop, then I'd put it back to horizontal and whack on it upwards a few times, then lay it on its side on the bench and whack it. Sometimes it would finally release, but the bolt had only disengaged the case and the case was stuck.

Now, if you're suggesting that after I do that, I then put the bolt back to the cocked position, there's really no point, as once that is done, I can then just pop the case out and don't have to deal with the darn frozen case sticking the bolt. Once I got the bolt out, it was easy enough to drop the mag-plate, empty rounds, use cleaning rod to clear case (by the way, tap the case with the rod, don't put the rod on the case and tap it, I found the case doesn't come out if you do the latter, but comes out easily if you do the former), then reload and continue.

So, yeah, if the above is me misunderstanding, maybe you can clear up my confusion. Also, I'm about to head out to a local FFL to get his info and my check sent off for a near-new CETME that I've posted about in the CETME/G3 forums. I'd love to hear some comments from my friends here in the Mosin crowd. I'll have pics there as soon as get the rifle. ;-)

Edit: Oh, and I did try the "slam the bolt handle backwards before attempting to extract" trick, but it made no difference.

Geo M44 · 11-20-2006, 05:05 PM

Sorry if I confused you. To clarify:

Once you have fired the round, DO NOT grab the bolt handle to cycle the next round, but instead pull back on the bolt cocking piece (the little nub on the back of the bolt assembly) to pre-cock the bolt. NOW grab the bolt handle and cycle the next round.

So:

1. Fire the round
2. Do not cycle the bolt yet.
2. Pull back on just the cocking piece to pre-cock the firing pin.
3. Now grab the bolt handle and cycle the next round normally.

Using this method the empty round should eject with a lot less effort. If not then you have more breach cleaning to do.

just_a_car · 11-20-2006, 05:46 PM

Ah, ok Geo, that makes a LOT more sense now. I wasn't aware that you could pre-cock the firing pin by just pulling back the cocking piece. (Woohoo! Learned something new!)

I'll have to give that a try next time I go to the range... and I'm pretty sure I do have more cleaning to do, as I only used mineral spirits and an old toothbrush to get at the cosmoline after heating it with a hair dryer to "warm"... *smirk* Can't say I didn't try.

palsymonkey · 11-20-2006, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by just_a_car

Oh, and did I mention GALVANIZED?... Yeah, as my father so well-put, using a torch on galvanized anything without an air-line respirator is asking to die.

metal fume fever

One of my jobs for a former employer was plasma-cutting brass (without a respirator). It took me a month to figure out why I was sick all the time.

Anyway, on the topic of surplus ammo, I was given an m44 mosin nagant a year ago and I've gotten pretty accurate with it and would like to try hunting, but the cheapest soft point ammo I can find is over $30 for 20 rounds. Would it be legal for me to cut the point off a surplus round and drill a shallow cavity into the exposed lead? Also, if it is legal, is this a really bad idea?

11-14-2006, 07:19 PM	#1
just_a_car Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Edmonds, WA Posts: 3,512	Military Surplus Ammunition Alright, so I figured I'd start a thread for just us Mosin guys (and gals, if there are any here) regarding the many varied experiences with Mil-Surp ammo. Today I had the distinct pleasure of receiving a 56 lb. green box from the FedEx lady. Was rather odd that I had randomly chosen to wear my forest camo pants today, but I digress. This rather hefty wood box was labeled "7,62-59"; now, I realized that the comma is what is used in other countries instead of the period, but the 59 worried the crap out of me. I opened up the box latch and there, on the glavanized metal was ink-stenciled the same thing, along with the many other symbols that were also on the outside. I was at first thinking that I had received the wrong ammunition (which was supposed to be Czech silver tip, by the way, from J&G), so onto the intar-web I went to research what this was before opening it. I found another forum where a guy had the same experience back in 2003 and found his to be 7.62x54R Czech silver tip. The guys on the forum were all thinking that maybe the 59 was year of manufacture, even though on his and my ammo, the headstamp says "68" and "bxn". Anyways, I felt confident enough that his box sounded almost identical that I was safe. Now, the guy did mention that he had a tough time opening it and that he wasn't in the least a weak guy. He even mentioned that it was soldered. He was right. They used copious amounts of solder to seal the galvanized metal plate that covered the top of this metal box that fit VERY snugly in the wood crate. The two, two-ring handles in the corners on one side were absolutely useless in aiding opening and only slightly more helpful in removing the metal box from the wood one, which I did to access the sides of the top lid and the solder that held it. Well, I wasn't going to try to brute-force this stuff as it was very thick, half an inch in some places. I grabbed a chisel and hammer and went to work, more than once cutting into the galvanized metal box and lid and having to readjust my angle. This took about 20 minutes to get three sides open so that I could pry the lid up and reveal the nice sky-blue boxes of 7.62x54R Czech silver tip, laquered ammo. Now, some of you may be thinking "hey, it's solder man! Just heat it up with a blowtorch and melt it off!" and to that, I say, go right ahead. I'll put you in for the Darwin award. Not only is it rather silly to bring flame to any amount of ammo, but especially moronic to do so to 800 rounds of it that are contained in a metal container. Oh, and did I mention GALVANIZED?... Yeah, as my father so well-put, using a torch on galvanized anything without an air-line respirator is asking to die. He worked on a galvanized metal for a while (I believe an exhaust system) and by the end was having to consciously work hard to take even the most meager of breaths. Galvanization and flame... dont do it! So, there ya go guys, my first experience with Military Surplus Ammunition. I'm really itchin' to get to the range with the stuff, as the 80 Polish rounds that I used seen here, worked rather well. They were quite accurate for what little experience I have. There were no misfires and only one failed to fully extract and I think that was because I didn't pull the bolt back quickly enough; it came back and just sat in the middle of the receiver. Last edited by just_a_car; 11-14-2006 at 08:32 PM. Reason: Fixing typos

11-14-2006, 09:30 PM	#3
NRAJOE Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Toledo,OH Posts: 19,043 Images: 3	When I bought my 880 rd case of Czech Silvertip all I had to do was pull those rings with a pair of sturdy pliers and it zipped right open. Silvertip rocks...almost as much fun as the 44gr Czech practice ammo. __________________ U.S. Army 1976-1979 237th Combat Engineers Heilbronn, Germany

11-14-2006, 10:00 PM	#4
troy2000 Resident Armed Liberal Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Southern California Posts: 9,409 Images: 9	I bought a crate of Albanian a while back... ...two giant, green spam cans in a wooden crate. I pried the crate lid off in the carport I use for a workshop sometimes, and carefully set the lid on a shelf unit, nails down (pure habit from my years in construction-never leave nails pointing up). I dug one of the cans out, and went thru some heroics with a hammer knocking the solder joint loose at one end. Then I said the heck with it, and tackled the rest of the lip with a 4-inch sidewheel grinder. Worked great. A couple of months later I was getting ready to open the second can. My shepherd and boxer/pit were all excited that I had come out to play with them, and bumped the shelf unit. The wooden crate lid fell onto the floor nails up, I picked it up, and lo and behold: there was a giant, old-fashioned can opener nailed to the inside of the lid. Imagine my surprise... It works even better than the grinder did, and I feel just a wee bit stupid. __________________ If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. -Anatole France

11-15-2006, 04:12 AM	#5
Big Dog Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 10,208	Troy, I had the same experience - found the danged can opener AFTER chiseling the things open! My can of Silvertip was much the same as mentioned earlier - the rings pulled off without opening the can! No sweat - a little work with hammer and chisel to open a corner, then my trusty tin snips - opened her right up! Wonder how Ivan did it in the field? Fixed bayonets? Handaxe? Maybe shot the danged things open . . . __________________ Moderator of: AR15/M16, M14/M1A, New/Beginning Shooters and Militaria/Collectables.

11-16-2006, 01:12 PM	#11
Dale Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Too Dang Hot, Arizona Posts: 4,284	In the spirit of free enterprise it's nice to see the internet customers are keeping the anti-Constitution nut people at J&G going because us locals won't. __________________ "It confuses me how some people can vigorously go against the 2nd. Amendment and still call themselves patriotic"-me

11-14-2006, 08:42 PM	#2
MosinDave Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Georgia Posts: 571	Awesome! The silver tip stuff is top notch for mil surp ammo. Having the round not fully eject happens to me sometimes too, but only when I don't yank the handle back fast enough. As soon as I get paid again I am planning on getting a spam can or two of that stuff, or some Hungarian light ball.

11-15-2006, 10:33 PM	#6
just_a_car Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Edmonds, WA Posts: 3,512	Well, took 40 of the Czech silver tips to the range today. Out of those 40, 5 failed to extract and 1 got stuck but extracted with a good upward slam on the bolt. I had use my cleaning rod to pop the failed extractions out. I was rather disappointed, since I was under the understanding that the laquered rounds didn't stick in a properly cleaned chamber. I never had this problem with the 80 rounds of Polish copper-wash I ran through. Fortunately, not a single misfire, but it sure is a pain in the butt to have to drop the magazine plate, empty the rounds, step back from the line, pop the case out, reload and continue firing. Maybe it's just me, but having to do that more than once in the same 5 rounds is just not right. I cleaned my cosmoline out what I thought was very well with mineral spirits and have cleaned the gun itself multiple times, soapy water for the corrosive salts and Hoppes No. 9 solvent and oil. A good scrub with the plastic bristle brush with the soap, then the solvent, then patches with solvent till only blue copper fouling showing. After that, a light oiling with a patch. Is there something I'm doing wrong that would make it so that these would stick? I'm considering sticking with only copper-wash Mil-Surp if I can't get this stuff extracting properly.

11-16-2006, 08:39 AM	#8
FeLiX Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 122 Images: 2	Collecting and Shooting the Military Surplus Rifle (2006) - Surplusrifle.com this might help.....

11-16-2006, 10:19 AM	#10
swabjocky Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 59	If you try the blowtorch method for opening the ammo box, make sure you put me down as sole beneficiary on your life insurance.

11-16-2006, 04:16 PM	#13
SPOCAHP ANAR Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: SC-upstate Posts: 4,087 Images: 3 Blog Entries: 4	Probably gonna order some nagant soon. Which one ISN'T the lacquer coated ammo, and how much and where? __________________ Spocrest Out!..........

11-16-2006, 06:36 PM	#14
MosinDave Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Georgia Posts: 571	The Czech Silver tips are the only rounds I have shot so far that are laquer coated, but I'm sure there are others out there. The Albanian, and Polish stuff I usually shoot is not and they cycle very easily in all of my Mosins. I would say the Albanian surplus stuff is the easiest stuff to shoot, as it is all brass cased and doesn't adhere to the chamber walls like the steel cased stuff does, but the Polish stuff feels hotter to me and is more fun to shoot ( one of my M91's has a fairly large chamber and the steel cased stuff is hard to extract on occasion ). I just ordered a span can from Sportsman's Guide of the Hungarian heavy ball ( was around $38 for 440 rds )and I will let ya know how that stuff works out when it gets here. It didn't appear to be laquered from the pics I saw.

11-20-2006, 10:31 AM	#16
Geo M44 Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: The Desert Posts: 2,172	j-a-c, I have posted this "sticky bolt trick" for MilSurp ammo before, but it bears repeating in this case: Before cycling the spent round pull the bolt back to the cocked position and then cycle the bolt. The effort is usually reduced by about 60%-70%. Everyone that has tried this has been amazed at the difference. Much better than bringing a 2 x 4 to the range and beating the !!!! out of the bolt. Hope this helps make shooting MilSurp more fun.

11-20-2006, 05:05 PM	#18
Geo M44 Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: The Desert Posts: 2,172	Sorry if I confused you. To clarify: Once you have fired the round, DO NOT grab the bolt handle to cycle the next round, but instead pull back on the bolt cocking piece (the little nub on the back of the bolt assembly) to pre-cock the bolt. NOW grab the bolt handle and cycle the next round. So: 1. Fire the round 2. Do not cycle the bolt yet. 2. Pull back on just the cocking piece to pre-cock the firing pin. 3. Now grab the bolt handle and cycle the next round normally. Using this method the empty round should eject with a lot less effort. If not then you have more breach cleaning to do. Last edited by Geo M44; 11-29-2006 at 04:06 PM.

11-20-2006, 05:46 PM	#19
just_a_car Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Edmonds, WA Posts: 3,512	Ah, ok Geo, that makes a LOT more sense now. I wasn't aware that you could pre-cock the firing pin by just pulling back the cocking piece. (Woohoo! Learned something new!) I'll have to give that a try next time I go to the range... and I'm pretty sure I do have more cleaning to do, as I only used mineral spirits and an old toothbrush to get at the cosmoline after heating it with a hair dryer to "warm"... smirk Can't say I didn't try.