Can someone please explain "counterboring" to me? - Page 2

troy2000 · 01-28-2008, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowercase

I tried the bullet test with both of mine and neither seems to be conter bored. Both rifles look great, too. The only thing I've found so far is that my 1943 Tula has a very difficult to work bolt. I hope that goes away after a good cleaning.
Now here's a dumb question: Since the bullet (not the casing) will only partially fit into the muzzle of the rifle, how does it get down the barrel when fired?

The overall barrel inside diameter is big enough for the bullet. The rifling lands (high parts) bite into the bullet as it's forced down the barrel, so it'll follow the twist and come out spinning.

sean46953 · 01-28-2008, 04:16 AM

Counter boring can be very effective if done correctly. I had an old Turkish Mauser that shot like crap, so bad the slugs would tumble and slap the target broadside at just 30 yards! So, I counter-bored it about 3'' to 3 1/2'' down the muzzle because the Turk's steel cleaning rods had eaten up that much rifling! After that, she shot great. Hit's what you aim at every time now. It's kinda tough work to do right, so just look to see that it wasn't done at an angle. You wanna be sure that the counter-boring was done straight. As long as it was, and the remaining rifling is good and deep, it oughta do just fine. As for the value, I don't think it should harm such a rifle as the Nagants (no disrespect at all to them, I love 'em!) but their value currently is rather low so I wouldn't be worried about it as long as the job was done well. My 2 cents.

lowercase · 01-28-2008, 10:20 PM

I'm in Tacoma. I can kick myself for not grabbing an M44 when I got my 1943 Tula. The Big 5 had 2 that looked like new guns. They both had light-colored stocks that looked flawless. Now, they just have some pretty rough looking guns and no Mosins.

just_a_car · 01-29-2008, 01:20 AM

Don't worry lowercase, those go on sale every other week/month. Just wait until the next sale and go in to all the Big 5's in your area and have them hold the best one they have at each location. They'll hold it for 24 hours. Then pick up the best of the best and let the hold expire on the rest. That's what I've done with all three of my mosins... and I can quit anytime I want. *starts mumbling to self*

Shoottathril200 · 04-27-2008, 08:42 PM

Heres a pic of counterboring and non counterboring Mosins, not the best pic but it should help. The rifle on the left is a number matched Izzy and the one on the right is a number matched Tula-both are ex-snipers from 1943. If you look closely at the Tula-right side-you will see the inside barrel diameter is bigger while the inside diameter of the Izzy is thicker. I will note also that the barrel length on the Tula is approximatly an 1/8 of an inch shorter than the Izzy. The main purpose is to repair damaged end bore due to improper cleaning, damaged crowns and also corrosive ammunition deteriation of the end barrel lands and grooves.

Old_Brewer · 04-27-2008, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoottathril200

Heres a pic of counterboring and non counterboring Mosins, not the best pic but it should help. The rifle on the left is a number matched Izzy and the one on the right is a number matched Tula-both are ex-snipers from 1943. If you look closely at the Tula-right side-you will see the inside barrel diameter is bigger while the inside diameter of the Izzy is thicker. I will note also that the barrel length on the Tula is approximatly an 1/8 of an inch shorter than the Izzy. The main purpose is to repair damaged end bore due to improper cleaning, damaged crowns and also corrosive ammunition deteriation of the end barrel lands and grooves.

Here is a link to another picture.

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/counterbore.JPG

squirrelbaster · 04-27-2008, 09:02 PM

ive never seen a m38 that was not counterbored... have any of you?

Shoottathril200 · 04-27-2008, 10:00 PM

Hmmm....an M38 thats counterbored...I have to check mine to see. I doubt if it is though not that I've paid much attention to this counterbored Mosin theroy thing. I wonder if barrel length, like the 91/30's, are affected after time in the field under harsh combat situations and thus they are the only ones affected with the counterboring? I know my M44s are not counterbored.

SwedeSteve · 04-27-2008, 10:07 PM

Another point. Cleaning rod abuse is not the only reason for counterboring. In the carbines, lots of burning/unburnt powder exits the muzzle (big flash!) which effects the muzzle end and crown in time.

Geo M44 · 04-27-2008, 10:50 PM

Counterboring? is not being boring... right?

Seriously though my counterbored rifles shoot as good as the almost new 1948 M44.

I always appreciate it when it is already done for me by the arsenals, as I've seen a few beater muzzles and they don't shoot worth beans.

squirrelbaster · 04-27-2008, 10:53 PM

^ +1 my counterbored m38 is a GREAT shooter! one of my most accurate rifles

marion57 · 04-28-2008, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squirrelbaster

ive never seen a m38 that was not counterbored... have any of you?

Yes ::
but it isnt common in the M38

and swede has the right info on the rifle it isnt just the cleaning
+!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoottathril200

Hmmm....an M38 thats counterbored...I have to check mine to see. I doubt if it is though not that I've paid much attention to this counterbored Mosin theroy thing. I wonder if barrel length, like the 91/30's, are affected after time in the field under harsh combat situations and thus they are the only ones affected with the counterboring? I know my M44s are not counterbored.

have you done the bullet test on the M44's?
and I bet the m 38 is counter bored!about 90% of them are.
As time goes on I am seeing more and more M44's with counterboreing and also 91x30s

andrew cochran · 04-28-2008, 09:49 AM

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/counterbore.JPG

This is an example.

Shuak · 04-28-2008, 10:05 AM

Looks like none of mine are counterbored.

Shoottathril200 · 04-28-2008, 10:25 AM

have you done the bullet test on the M44's?
and I bet the m 38 is counter bored!about 90% of them are.
As time goes on I am seeing more and more M44's with counterboreing and also 91x30s

[/quote]

No, just checked my M38 and it is not counterbored though I did buy it some five years ago.

patrick70 · 04-28-2008, 10:29 AM

My m44 is counterbored and shoots really good.

SwedeSteve · 04-28-2008, 02:12 PM

I have a M44 that's counterbored, and one thats not. I kinda think that all of these rearsenaled Mosins get counterbored whether they need it or not! Some may get by, but I def see more and more now, as compared to a year ago!

andrew cochran · 04-28-2008, 02:17 PM

Does it hurt the value?

Geo M44 · 04-28-2008, 02:28 PM

I think you're right Steve.

As for the value... there are 17 million of these rifles out there in 91/30, M38, and M44 models. If your current MN has a rarity between 1 and 4 today, there probably isn't a lot of value growth potential. Counter-boring, from the arsenal, should always be looked upon as a positive attribute. It means that someone checked the bore and deemed it worth saving.

marion57 · 04-28-2008, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoottathril200

have you done the bullet test on the M44's?
and I bet the m 38 is counter bored!about 90% of them are.
As time goes on I am seeing more and more M44's with counterboreing and also 91x30s

No, just checked my M38 and it is not counterbored though I did buy it some five years ago.[/quote]

Yes and I think steve and geo are right on with the arsenal rebuild getting counter bored..Hang on to your M38 being its not counter board it would bring more money on the open market

01-28-2008, 04:16 AM	#22
sean46953 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Marion, Indiana Posts: 357	Counter boring can be very effective if done correctly. I had an old Turkish Mauser that shot like crap, so bad the slugs would tumble and slap the target broadside at just 30 yards! So, I counter-bored it about 3'' to 3 1/2'' down the muzzle because the Turk's steel cleaning rods had eaten up that much rifling! After that, she shot great. Hit's what you aim at every time now. It's kinda tough work to do right, so just look to see that it wasn't done at an angle. You wanna be sure that the counter-boring was done straight. As long as it was, and the remaining rifling is good and deep, it oughta do just fine. As for the value, I don't think it should harm such a rifle as the Nagants (no disrespect at all to them, I love 'em!) but their value currently is rather low so I wouldn't be worried about it as long as the job was done well. My 2 cents. __________________ http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/b...00_0535100.jpgSean M. Hartman

01-29-2008, 01:20 AM	#24
just_a_car Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Edmonds, WA Posts: 3,521	Don't worry lowercase, those go on sale every other week/month. Just wait until the next sale and go in to all the Big 5's in your area and have them hold the best one they have at each location. They'll hold it for 24 hours. Then pick up the best of the best and let the hold expire on the rest. That's what I've done with all three of my mosins... and I can quit anytime I want. starts mumbling to self __________________

04-27-2008, 09:02 PM	#27
squirrelbaster Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,266	ive never seen a m38 that was not counterbored... have any of you? __________________ "My Shotgun SAYS I AM the POLICE !"--Mooseman684 "I like Turtles!" youtube kid

04-27-2008, 10:07 PM	#29
SwedeSteve Thor's Hammer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Alaska Posts: 10,348 Images: 1	Another point. Cleaning rod abuse is not the only reason for counterboring. In the carbines, lots of burning/unburnt powder exits the muzzle (big flash!) which effects the muzzle end and crown in time. __________________ Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers

04-27-2008, 10:50 PM	#30
Geo M44 Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: The Desert Posts: 2,197	Counterboring? is not being boring... right? Seriously though my counterbored rifles shoot as good as the almost new 1948 M44. I always appreciate it when it is already done for me by the arsenals, as I've seen a few beater muzzles and they don't shoot worth beans. __________________ Remember when seconds count... the police are only minutes away.

01-28-2008, 10:20 PM	#23
lowercase Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 205	I'm in Tacoma. I can kick myself for not grabbing an M44 when I got my 1943 Tula. The Big 5 had 2 that looked like new guns. They both had light-colored stocks that looked flawless. Now, they just have some pretty rough looking guns and no Mosins.

04-27-2008, 10:00 PM	#28
Shoottathril200 Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: New Mexico Posts: 50	Hmmm....an M38 thats counterbored...I have to check mine to see. I doubt if it is though not that I've paid much attention to this counterbored Mosin theroy thing. I wonder if barrel length, like the 91/30's, are affected after time in the field under harsh combat situations and thus they are the only ones affected with the counterboring? I know my M44s are not counterbored.

04-27-2008, 10:53 PM	#31
squirrelbaster Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,266	^ +1 my counterbored m38 is a GREAT shooter! one of my most accurate rifles __________________ "My Shotgun SAYS I AM the POLICE !"--Mooseman684 "I like Turtles!" youtube kid

04-28-2008, 09:49 AM	#33
andrew cochran Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Little town in ARKANSAW! Posts: 2,155	http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/counterbore.JPG This is an example. __________________ If you don't have anything good to say... Don't say it!

04-28-2008, 10:05 AM	#34
Shuak Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: ctrl,alt,del Posts: 183	Looks like none of mine are counterbored.

04-28-2008, 10:25 AM	#35
Shoottathril200 Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: New Mexico Posts: 50	have you done the bullet test on the M44's? and I bet the m 38 is counter bored!about 90% of them are. As time goes on I am seeing more and more M44's with counterboreing and also 91x30s[/quote] No, just checked my M38 and it is not counterbored though I did buy it some five years ago.

04-28-2008, 10:29 AM	#36
patrick70 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: FLORIDA Posts: 295	My m44 is counterbored and shoots really good.

04-28-2008, 02:12 PM	#37
SwedeSteve Thor's Hammer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Alaska Posts: 10,348 Images: 1	I have a M44 that's counterbored, and one thats not. I kinda think that all of these rearsenaled Mosins get counterbored whether they need it or not! Some may get by, but I def see more and more now, as compared to a year ago! __________________ Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers

04-28-2008, 02:17 PM	#38
andrew cochran Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Little town in ARKANSAW! Posts: 2,155	Does it hurt the value? __________________ If you don't have anything good to say... Don't say it!

04-28-2008, 02:28 PM	#39
Geo M44 Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: The Desert Posts: 2,197	I think you're right Steve. As for the value... there are 17 million of these rifles out there in 91/30, M38, and M44 models. If your current MN has a rarity between 1 and 4 today, there probably isn't a lot of value growth potential. Counter-boring, from the arsenal, should always be looked upon as a positive attribute. It means that someone checked the bore and deemed it worth saving. __________________ Remember when seconds count... the police are only minutes away.